Five More U.S. Troops Killed in Iraq

THE KOD

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That said, i'll try to address your other post when I get a second. And as usually happens in here, you'll probably just ignore it and move on.
....................................................

kosar

OK now we are getting somewhere. I promise you that if you will respond to the post about Saddam ignoring UN inspectors etc.

I will respond back in full.

Maybe we can work this out and come to a understanding after all.

PS - Bush is lower than a snake, in my eyes since he signed that port security bill shit.

PSS - I just voted all Democratic and Libertarians.
Not one fawking republican.
 
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kosar

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kosar

Saddam had over a year to allow the UN inspectors to come in and inspect. Fawking years he played the same game. Saddam laughed at the international community. He would allow inspectors in , and then not let them in certain areas. Why ? Not because he had something to hide, but because he didn't ! The crazy fawk.

The inspectors spent 12 years in Iraq and could not find one iota of evidence of a WMD program and no evidence of any weapons of the sort at all. Weird, but that's the same conclusion that seperate investigations from the CIA and the bi-partisan 9/11 commission came to after we invaded and had full access to all facilities.

Saddam played games, but I think you answered your own question below.


Why did Saddam not let them in ? He didnt want to show his cards to his enemys ?

Of course. He didn't want Iran to know that they no longer had chemical weapons. But to clarify, he DID 'let them in' and they had access to most of the suspected sites. He let them in, kicked them out, let them in..etc. The bottom line is that he didn't want it absolutely confirmed that not only did he have a ridiculously weak military, he also didn't have chems/bio.


You honestly think Saddam was one of the good guys that deserved to be left alone to his continuing dictatorship until he could invade another Kuwait ? How much did that one cost us ?
Or did you conveniently forget about that little war.


For one, it's well confirmed that we(or at least a pretty high level rep told him this in person-look it up) told him there would be no repercussions if he went into Kuwait.

More importantly, he was totally contained. Totally. Bush 41 was sooo much smarter than Bush 43. If I felt like looking for it, I would show a very prescient quote from 41 that explained exactly why we didn't try to occupy Baghdad in 1991. He described our current situation to a 't'.

Saddam was not, and never has been, any sort of threat to America. That's all I care about. It's pretty, um, I don't know what to say that 2800 and counting dead men and women and another 18,000 maimed is worth invading, occupying and trying to rebuild a country that was no threat to us. Ever.


Or do you like the part where Saddam was paying off suicide bombers 20 grand to the families, for bombing US allies.

How do you explain that ? How could we allow that to continue. Even that one thing should have hanged his ass years ago.


Huh? Are you serious? Because he paid Palestinian suicide bombers' families after the fact of their acts in Israel, we should take this sort of human and financial loss? Do you give a shit about America?


All that fawker had to do was let the inspectors in and they find nothing and he stays in power until he dies, continuing to rape, kill, torture his own civilians. And collect US currancy and build more gold palaces.

But no. Saddam couldnt or wouldnt. The US did what we had to do. History will show this to be true.

History will show this to be the second biggest mistake in this countrys existence, after Vietnam.

I thought you had more of a ability to rationalize facts kosar. Instead all you can do is whine about casualties and how the US has no business in Iraq.

lol- ok
 

THE KOD

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kosar

after all that all I can think about is posting the piece of toast again.

Let me read it over and I will come up with valid
reasons why what you have said is more full of shit that a christmas turkey.
 

kosar

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Scott-Atlanta said:
kosar

OK now we are getting somewhere. I promise you that if you will respond to the post about Saddam ignoring UN inspectors etc. I will respond back in full

What happened, Scotty? Is this your 'full' response below? Not surprising and totally expected.


kosar

after all that all I can think about is posting the piece of toast again.
 

THE KOD

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JOHN GLENN SAID:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.



When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following:

a. FDR led us into World War II.

B. Germany never attacked us; Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost .. an average of 112,500 per year.

c. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.

North Korea never attacked us..

>From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year.

d John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.

Vietnam never attacked us.

e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost .. an average of 5,800 per year.

f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.

Bosnia never attacked us.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

G. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaeda, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining

about how long the war is taking.

But It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.

That was a 51-day operation..

We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB! The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts But Wait There's more!





JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)

Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn): "How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio): "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.

I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank."

"I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day...

to a veteran's hospital and look those men with their mangled bodies .

in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job!



You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job.



You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags.

You stand there, and you think about this nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

What about you?"


For those who don't remember ..

During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA.

Now he's a Senator!

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

And another bit of WHY we are in this war:



After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured

1,000, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.


After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.



After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19

and injured 200 U.S. military personnel, Clinton promised that those

responsible would be hunted down and punished.



After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and

injured 5,000, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted

down and punished.



After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 3

U.S. sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted

down and punished.



Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people would

not have died on 9/11 and still be alive today.
.........................................................

kosar

Found this with alot of answers.

Will you just admit that the US did the right thing by going into Iraq ?

It will make things alot easier.

I will admit that we should figure out a way out of there.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Smurph Let me explain in terms even you can understand.

A:You have little control over cancer.
B: If you stay out of 90% Dem strongholds your chances of dying by violent crime will be reduced drastically.
C: You can cut your chances of aids to practically 0simply by keeping needles out of your arms and sitting down and keep your mouth shut :)
 

kosar

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JOHN GLENN SAID:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.



When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following:

a. FDR led us into World War II.

B. Germany never attacked us; Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost .. an average of 112,500 per year.

c. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.

North Korea never attacked us..

>From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year.

d John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.

Vietnam never attacked us.

e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost .. an average of 5,800 per year.

f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.

Bosnia never attacked us.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

G. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaeda, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining

about how long the war is taking.

But It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.

That was a 51-day operation..

We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB! The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts But Wait There's more!





JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)

Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn): "How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio): "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.

I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank."

"I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day...

to a veteran's hospital and look those men with their mangled bodies .

in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job!



You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job.



You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags.

You stand there, and you think about this nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

What about you?"


For those who don't remember ..

During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA.

Now he's a Senator!

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

And another bit of WHY we are in this war:



After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured

1,000, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.


After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.



After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19

and injured 200 U.S. military personnel, Clinton promised that those

responsible would be hunted down and punished.



After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and

injured 5,000, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted

down and punished.



After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 3

U.S. sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted

down and punished.



Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people would

not have died on 9/11 and still be alive today.
.........................................................

kosar

Found this with alot of answers.

Will you just admit that the US did the right thing by going into Iraq ?

It will make things alot easier.

I will admit that we should figure out a way out of there.


Scotty,

That's a chain email of quotes from John Glenn from almost 3 years ago. A pretty meager effort from you, I must say. Not to mention, very little of it has anything at all to do with what we're talking about.

And no, we clearly did NOT do the 'right thing' by invading, occupying, policing and trying to rebuild Iraq.

Our military is not supposed to be used like this. It is for the defense of our country. Period.

Please cite even one thing that showed that Saddam was an imminent threat, or a threat of any kind, to America.
 

kosar

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After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 3

U.S. sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted

down and punished.



Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people would

not have died on 9/11 and still be alive today.
.........................................................


Ummmm, Clinton had like 2 months left in his term after the Cole. And, ummmm, I didn't realize that 7,000 people died on 9/11. Actually it was about the same exact number that have dies in Iraq to date, 2800 or so.

See Scotty, blindly posting idiotic chain emails, is, well, idiotic.

As far as the Khobar towers and the African embassies, i'm pretty sure those people were, in fact, brought to justice.

Think for yourself, Scotty, and don't just forward ignorant propaganda that you receive from your moronic friends.
 

kosar

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Smurph Let me explain in terms even you can understand.

A:You have little control over cancer.
B: If you stay out of 90% Dem strongholds your chances of dying by violent crime will be reduced drastically.
C: You can cut your chances of aids to practically 0simply by keeping needles out of your arms and sitting down and keep your mouth shut :)

What in the world does AIDS have to do with sending our troops to Iraq to try to perform a futile 'mission?'

I just don't understand where you're coming from sometimes. Car accidents, drive-bys, AIDS. I mean, wtf?
 

djv

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My good Man Regan had it right all along. Even tho he peed me off a few times. He was a 85% pres for me. And He played Iraq the right way. Even if Saddam was a bastard. He hated Iran and kept them under control. he also had no time for Ben and his group of thugs.
Clinton At least a strong 75%. I don't care who he worked with. Or gave or got his bj from. All I know is we were not blowing 10 Billion a week on a invasion that was not needed. And Clinton and whom ever help him grew my wealth by more then 5 times in just 6 years.
Bush at best unless he turns it around 45%.Seems I give him more credit then most of the country.
I wonder if Bush has caught on yet. That Cheney and Rummhead have drag him down.
 

Terryray

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best arguments I've seen

best arguments I've seen

tho piece is a few years old and authors might reassess the costs of regime building now!



The Reality of Saddam?s Threat

The U.S. could not have delayed dealing with Saddam Hussein.

By David B. Rivkin Jr. & Lee A. Casey

On Friday, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its "Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Pre-war Intelligence Assessment on Iraq." Although this report concluded that the Bush administration did not seek to "coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities," thereby decisively rebutting the oft-invoked charge that the administration had pushed the intelligence community to find a threat from Iraq, the president's opponents have been busy spinning the report's conclusions as evidence that Saddam Hussein simply posed no meaningful threat to the United States. They now assert that Saddam's Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), was so weak in conventional military forces that it presented no threat even to some of its smaller neighbors, and that, overall, the regime could have been safely contained for years to come.

Emboldened by the report, the Democrat political establishment, including presidential candidate John Kerry, and his recently announced running mate John Edwards, have now broadened their attacks on the president's Iraq policy. Having spent months arguing that the problem was not with the fact that the United States effected a regime change in Iraq, but rather with how the administration went about it ? not enough international support and insufficient planning for the postwar period have been Kerry's favorite allegations ? now they have begun to claim that the whole enterprise was flawed.

These arguments are fundamentally wrong. They both underestimate the threat posed to the United States by Iraq's WMD programs, erroneously equating the absence of WMD stockpiles at a particular point in time with the absence of a WMD threat, and trivialize other aspects of the unique strategic challenge of Saddam Hussein. They also ignore compelling evidence that the international sanctions regime was collapsing and that the real strategic choice facing the United States was not between a regime change and containment, but between a regime change and Saddam Hussein's continuation in power, free from any meaningful constraints. More generally, the critics apparent belief that there is such a thing as perfect intelligence, and that the United States should not use force against a dangerous foe until and unless such perfect intelligence has been secured, is both historically unfounded and a prescription for a strategic disaster.

Saddam's Dream

Both the reality and enduring nature of Saddam's WMD ambitions are well-known. Since proclaimed intentions and declaratory policy have always driven weapons acquisition, the fact that, for years, Saddam Hussein proclaimed his desire to become a new Saladin, and maintained that the possession of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons by Iraq was an indispensable foundation for any resurgence of Arab power, is extremely important. Declaratory policy aside, Saddam spent billions of dollars developing WMDs and their delivery systems. Post-Desert Storm weapons inspections revealed the existence of a massive Iraqi stockpile of chemical and biological agents, a large portion of which were fully weaponized, as well as a mature nuclear weapons program, perhaps a year or two away from completion. Significantly, Saddam also demonstrated his willingness to use chemical weapons on a large scale, both against the Iranians and his own people. This strongly suggests that, once his WMD forces fully matured, maintaining a robust deterrence against him would have been a difficult, if not impossible, enterprise. Indeed, if nothing else, a nuclear Iraq would have been able to intimidate and dominate his neighbors, since the United States' ability to use its conventional forces to aid threatened Gulf states, like it did in 1991, would have been severely compromised.

To be sure, Saddam Hussein was not the only dictator seeking to develop WMD capabilities, and to use them to help underwrite his anti-American foreign policies. Both North Korea and Iran also pose serious threats in this area. However, the argument by the administration's critics that, since we are not actively pursuing a regime change option in either Iran or North Korea, we should have done nothing to replace Hussein, is incoherent. It appears to be based in some notion that the United States must treat all of its foreign enemies equally, and that to topple one dictator is somehow unfair when others are left standing. However, this all-or-nothing approach is neither good foreign policy nor a sensible military strategy. International law contains no "equal protection" clause benefiting rogue regimes, and dealing with threats sequentially, and focusing on the one that is both grave and the most manageable is the essence of good statecraft.

Moreover, Saddam's Iraq posed a sufficiently unique challenge to make dealing with it a priority. If Saddam had succeeded in surviving the sanctions, his ability to have turned a military defeat into a long-term strategic success would have greatly bolstered his standing in the Arab world. This would have been particularly dangerous in the post-September 11 environment, because it would have reinforced the perception, embraced by Osama bin Laden among others, that the United States is a "weak horse." Unlike its critics, who have been focusing on the relatively trivial issue of whether Saddam Hussein had actually aided al Qaeda's September 11 attacks against the United States, the administration clearly understood the pivotal importance, in the new threat environment, of the Islamicist assessment of America's willpower.

In any case, the psychological aspects of the threat assessment aside, given Iraq's enormous oil wealth, Saddam Hussein clearly had the potential to become a far greater threat than the impoverished North Korean regime, and had proven himself to be far less cautious than Iran's mullahs have been ? so far. Last, but not least, the notion that the U.S. could have delayed dealing with this problem is self-evidently false. Once the sanctions regime collapsed, and Iraq was no longer viewed as a pariah state, the United States would have found it even more difficult to secure any regional or international support for the regime change.

Saddam's Record

There is no question that, even after the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam Hussein refused to abandon his WMD aspirations. Although some of Iraq 's WMD stockpiles were destroyed by the time Saddam Hussein expelled the U.N. inspectors in 1998, the situation with the rest of his arsenal was much more complicated. For years, Iraq played a cat-and-mouse game with the U.N. inspectors. Even after Security Council Resolution 1441, giving Hussein one last chance to cure his material breaches of the previous resolutions and come into full compliance, was enacted, Iraq continued this strategy. Indeed, Iraq 's submission to the Security Council of a patently false December 2002 weapons declaration, combined with an arrogant assertion that its WMD stockpiles were destroyed without any record of that fact, signaled Saddam's clear intention never to meet the obligations he undertook at the close of the Gulf War. These were, among other things, to himself prove that Iraq's WMD stockpiles had been destroyed and its programs dismantled. (The notion that Iraq 's totalitarian regime, obsessed as it was with controlling all aspects of public and private life, would have destroyed its WMD arsenal without generating some paperwork in the process is laughable ? unless this was by design. After all, Coalition forces have discovered rooms full of documentation detailing the Iraqis tortured and murdered by Saddam's regime.)

Thus, despite a clear legal obligation requiring Saddam Hussein to destroy his WMD stockpiles and programs, and to prove it, he refused to provide any reliable accounting. This deception went on for years, despite the high cost of the international sanctions regime. Even when he had numerous opportunities to dispel American anxiety about his WMD capabilities ? through "arranged" defections or the use of favored French or Russian interlocutors (who could have been discretely given the kind of access to Iraq's facilities denied to the U.N. inspectors) ? he declined (a point raised by Michael Schrage in the Washington Post). Instead, a stream of Iraqi defectors and information gleaned from electronic intercepts and signal intelligence reinforced the conclusion that Iraq still maintained a substantial WMD capability. This was fully borne out by the discoveries made by Coalition forces that the Iraqi military establishment maintained elaborate chemical-warfare-related paraphernalia, including protective gear, detoxification equipment, and a stockpile of antidotes.

Ironically, although Saddam Hussein consistently refused to present adequate proof that his WMD stockpiles had been eliminated, it now appears that they had been. By the end of the 1990s, it appears that the immediate value of WMDs, from Saddam's perspective, was not necessarily in their potential use on the battlefield. Rather, it was in the status such weapons gave him in the Arab world, and in the potential deterrence value they produced vis-?-vis the United States and Israel. As a result, he was able to adopt a middle course ? evidently destroying much of his stockpile (thus avoiding inconvenient discoveries by U.N. inspection teams), while maintaining the capacity to recreate chemical and biological weapons on a "just in time" basis, and pursuing additional research and development efforts on nuclear weapons. Saddam's strategic gamble, while creative, is not entirely unprecedented, and closely resembles Nikita Khrushchev's exploitation of what came to be known as the "missile gap."
 

Terryray

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The Two Strategic Gambles

As readers of a certain age will recall, by the late 1950s the Soviet Union was locked in a strategic arms competition with the United States, and it was loosing badly. America enjoyed a considerable and growing advantage in both long- and intermediate-range nuclear forces. Yet, having embarked on an ambitious foreign policy designed to test American resolve, and possibly drive U.S. forces out of Berlin, Khrushchev was not prepared to curtail his aspirations. To enhance his military capabilities vis-?-vis the U.S., he could have deployed a number of costly, inaccurate and vulnerable first generation ICBMs. Alternatively, he could invest the USSR's large, but not unlimited, resources in the development of more advanced missiles (with deployment many years in the future) and other, more reliable, strategic weapons systems that might actually move the nuclear balance in his favor. Sensibly enough, he chose the latter course. However, to maintain the highest quality "deterrence" against the West and, even more to the point, to support the enhanced Soviet prestige necessary for an ambitious foreign policy, Khrushchev also engaged in an elaborate deception designed to make the West believe that Moscow had already fielded strategically meaningful numbers of advanced ICBMs. The Soviet leader's public statements were supported by a carefully tailored intelligence disinformation campaign.

From Khrushchev's perspective, the entire plan worked like a charm. The alleged "missile gap" between the United States and the USSR was seized upon by a young Democratic Senator from Massachusetts, John F. Kennedy, to discredit the Eisenhower Administration and to defeat then-Vice President Richard M. Nixon in the 1960 presidential election. Not only did the Soviet Union save billions of rubles, but Khrushchev now believed he could best the inexperienced Kennedy.

In the end, however, he had been too clever by half. The deception was discovered through the use of U-2 surveillance flights and confirmed by intelligence provided by Colonel Oleg Penkovsky. When Khrushchev proceeded to place short and medium-range nuclear missiles in Cuba in October 1962, in order to cover his blunder, Kennedy bested him. Backing down from a confrontation the Soviet Union could not win, the humiliated Khrushchev was "retired" within two years.

Although the details of Saddam's WMD deception were different, his basic strategic bluff was virtually identical to Khrushchev's gambit. Having concluded, in the aftermath of Desert Storm, that the possession of a WMD arsenal was an indispensable guarantee of his regime's survival, but not wanting to repudiate openly ? in the manner of Kim Jong-Il ? his international obligations, Saddam chose to continue to perfect his WMD systems, with a particular emphasis on the development of a nuclear capability, while actually drawing down the number of deployed WMDs. In many respects, this elaborate deception, about the existence of his deployed WMDs, was easier than Khrushchev's, since no amount of intelligence gathering or U.N. inspections could prove the negative. Thus, the world was left with the impression that Saddam had WMD capabilities, but there was no "smoking gun." Certainly, there was nothing that could produce an "Adlai Stevenson moment" (when President Kennedy's U.N. ambassador was able, using U-2 generated photographs, actually to show Soviet missile sites in Cuba ).

A Just-in-Time Arsenal

Yet, the existence of this state of affairs in 2003 does not, contrary to the claims of the administration's critics, validate the wisdom of the U.N. sanctions/inspections strategy or demonstrate that the U.S.-preferred regime change strategy was unnecessary and unwise. To begin with, a "virtual" WMD strategy enabled Saddam to wait out the sanctions/inspections regime, which, by the late 1990s, was already beginning to break down ? with claims (by France among others) that the innocent Iraqi people were suffering more than the guilty Saddam regime. It should be recalled that the administration's pre-September 11, 2001 efforts to bolster and "smarten" anti-Saddam sanctions were met with strong opposition from Russia, China and France, all of which were arguing that Iraq should be allowed to rejoin the international community as a normal sovereign state. There were no indications that those who have been critical of "regime change" as the most effective means for dealing with the threat posed by Saddam would have had the bureaucratic and political staying power of sustaining for years, and even decades, a policy of de facto international trusteeship, enforced by weapons inspectors, to be imposed over Iraq (as well as on other WMD-aspiring, rogue regimes).

Moreover, to the extent that Saddam felt confident about his ability to control the timing of events (to be the initiator, rather than the victim, of any renewed military operations), thereby being able to reconstitute his arsenal when needed, retaining a small WMD stockpile was not an optimal strategic choice for Iraq. It did not provide a substantial enough war-fighting capability, yet posed an ever-present risk of detection ? it would have been difficult, for example, to conceal an accident akin to the one that took place in Chelyabinsk in the Urals in 1979, when an accidental release of anthrax killed scores of people (and confirmed the existence of the Soviet bio-weapons program despite the Kremlin's denials).

Significantly, this "just-in-time" approach to WMD deployment was no less dangerous, from the U.S. perspective, than possession of a WMD stockpile. At least with respect to chemical and biological agents, the most important assets appear to be the availability of suitable expertise and the necessary industrial base. Both of these Saddam had in plenty. Thus, a rogue state, capable of reconstituting its WMD arsenal at a time of its own choosing, poses as much of a threat as a regime with the WMD forces in being.

Finally, an Iraqi just-in-time strategy may have been even more dangerous to the United States because of the possibility that Saddam would share either existing WMD, or technical expertise, with a terrorist group. In fact, a rogue regime which has adopted a virtual arsenal approach, while disclaiming its intent to field WMDs, might well feel that it has more plausible deniability and, therefore, would actually be more likely to transfer WMDs to a third party. There is even a possibility that Iraq may have combined its WMD-related efforts with other rogue regimes (Syria in particular) and intended to develop a "distributed" arsenal, which would have been more difficult to both detect and target.

The Myth of Perfect Intelligence

The administration's critics have also embraced the dangerous and ahistorical notion that it is possible to develop and maintain a perfectly accurate intelligence picture of what is being done by a dangerous foe. While the CIA cannot be fully exonerated ? its failure to recruit and run human intelligence sources within Iraq is particularly damning ? developing consistently reliable body of intelligence, especially when dealing with a ruthless dictatorial regime, is an inherently challenging undertaking. Notably, many times in the past, the CIA's "group think" mentality, mentioned prominently in the Senate report, has not caused it to overestimate the threat. If anything, more often than not, the CIA has underestimated the extent of the threats facing the U.S. This was certainly the case with its assessments of the Soviet nuclear build-up, Soviet expense expenditures, and many other aspects of Soviet foreign and defense policies. The CIA's estimates of Iraq's nuclear programs on the eve of the 1991 Gulf war were also way off. Meanwhile, the September 11 Commission is about to indict the CIA and the entire U.S. intelligence community for its failure to anticipate and predict the September 11 attacks.

While gauging accurately what is being done by a regime that is trying to hide its weapons programs, as was the case with North Korea, is difficult, doing this vis-?-vis a regime that has engaged in a deliberate strategic deception program is virtually impossible. Yet, this was precisely the case with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. For example, even if the CIA succeeded in penetrating the senior echelons of Saddam's regime, and all of its human sources reported that no WMD stockpiles were in place, this evidence, even if one assumes that the sources involved were totally reliable, still would not have been conclusive.

After all, it is always possible that Iraq's program was sufficiently compartmentalized to ensure that even senior regime members did not have an accurate picture of what was going on. In fact, this compartmentalization is quite typical of dictatorial and secrecy-obsessed regimes. In the Soviet case, for example, the whole nuclear weapons program was entrusted by Stalin to his secret police chief, Beria, and its specifics were not known for many years by most of the senior Soviet political and military leaders. All of this means that the availability of perfect intelligence is a myth, and the search for it is inherently self-defeating. Unfortunately, U.S. decision-makers often have to make tough choices on the basis of imperfect and ambiguous intelligence.

A Reasonable Policy

When the totality of this evidence is fairly considered, the administration's overall assessment of the threat posed by Iraq 's WMD program remains fully justified. Significantly, Iraq's failure to avail itself of the one last chance to disarm, offered by Resolution 1441, coming as it did on the heels of ten years of sanctions and 16 successive Security Council resolutions, properly convinced the administration that Saddam would never give up his WMD program, no matter what economic and diplomatic pressure was brought to bear upon him. Therefore, the policy choice to effect a "regime change" was both consistent with the administration's reasonable prospective assessments of Saddam's WMD program and constituted the only effective way of dealing with this threat.

When dealing with authoritarian anti-American states with a demonstrated history of WMD ambitions, the only safe way, short of regime change, to ensure that they are irreversibly disarmed is to adopt a wide-range of confidence-building measures, which go way beyond the traditional inspection regime. Under this scenario, the burden of persuasion is really on the regime itself. In this regard, as was persuasively argued by the president's national-security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, experience amassed during the "de-nuclearization" of such countries as South Africa and Ukraine demonstrates that a prerequisite to a successful nuclear disarmament is a willing host regime that is prepared to give the international community unrestricted access to its facilities and weapons installations and adopt a wide-range of confidence building measures. Indeed, Libya's recent overture to the international community is another excellent example of this confidence-building approach.

By contrast, a rogue regime that is playing a shell game with inspectors can never be disarmed with any degree of confidence. Significantly, this concern was well recognized by the U.N. weapons inspectors; neither Hans Blix, nor any of his predecessors, have ever claimed that they were confident of their ability to disarm Iraq fully of its WMDs. What the administration's critics are really saying is that, despite the September 11 experience, they would not use force in a situation in which strong, albeit not full-proof, arguments can be made that there is a grave and rising danger to the U.S. In a world in which perfect intelligence is but a pipe dream, this approach virtually guarantees inaction. Come November, the American people should decide whether this is the best way to protect our security in the 21st century.

David B. Rivkin Jr. & Lee A. Casey are partners in the Washington , D.C. , office of Baker & Hostetler LLP. Both of them served in the Justice Department during the Reagan and Bush Sr., administrations. This essay draws on some of their previous work, which has appeared in the Wall Street Journal Europe and In The National Interest.
 

smurphy

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Bottom line, it's a FACT that going to war over an OPINION is a bad proposition.

The people justifying the invasion around here remind me of myself in school trying to fill a 10 page paper when I really only have about 1/2 page worth of credible material. Fill in the gaps with quotes and numbers and empty theories.

It takes very little insight and study of our history to know what a bad move this was strategically, politically, and socially.

SCOTT - Regarding the USS COLE - What did Bush do during his 8+ months in office prior to 9-11? He had 4x the time to respond to that attack as Clinton.
 

THE KOD

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Think for yourself, Scotty, and don't just forward ignorant propaganda that you receive from your moronic friends.
..................................................

I think it was my Dad sent me that one.

Are you calling my Dad a moron ?
 

THE KOD

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smurphy

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Scott just got sent through the Iraq-Kosar grinder. Please, others learn from this. I'm tired of watching these massacres replay themselves over and over.
 

The Sponge

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Im so glad im sick because i don't think i would have had any energy at all to even address anything Scott has said. He is even sticking to talking points from years back. Scotty those have all been changed. The only reason i posted this thread to begin with was because election day was right around the corner and i thought maybe out of the million people who post at Jacks i might be able to get one guy to vote for the Dems and it looks like Scott did. Good job scott but your talking points are a bit old. This is okay tho because nobody has talking points older than DTB.
 
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