U.S. VETERANS KILLING THEMSELVES. 120 A WEEK

[MadJack]

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.canada/browse_thread/thread/86300e0defc0f025

From correspondents in New York


November 15, 2007 09:47am
Article from: Agence France-Presse


THE US military is experiencing a "suicide epidemic" with veterans killing
themselves at the rate of 120 a week, according to an investigation by US
television network CBS.


At least 6256 US veterans committed suicide in 2005 - an average of 17 a
day - the network reported, with veterans overall more than twice as likely
to take their own lives as the rest of the general population.


While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the
level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000.


That figure rose to 22.9 to 31.9 suicides per 100,000 among veterans aged 20
to 24 - almost four times the non-veteran average for the age group.


"Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems,'' CBS
quoted veterans' rights advocate Paul Sullivan as saying.


CBS quoted the father of a 23-year-old soldier who shot himself in 2005 as
saying the military did not want the true scale of the problem to be known.


"Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total,'' Mike
Bowman said.


"They don't want the true numbers of casualties to really be known.''


There are 25 million veterans in the United States, 1.6 million of whom
served in Afghanistan and Iraq, according to CBS.


"Not everyone comes home from the war wounded, but the bottom line is nobody
comes home unchanged,'' Paul Rieckhoff, a former Marine and founder of Iraq
and Afghanistan Veterans for America said on CBS.


The network said it was the first time that a nationwide count of veteran
suicides had been conducted.


The tally was reached by collating suicide data from individual states for
both veterans and the general population from 1995.

 

[gardenweasel]

that`s some crazy website,there....

i wonder if the suicide rate among policemen is higher than the national norm?...i`d guess yes,even though stats are hard to come by....

i think stressful professions that deal in life and death situations can lead to increased alcoholism,drug abuse etc.....and i`m sure that can exacerbate the problem....,

 

[AR182]

of course if true it's horrible....but i haven't seen anything else on it...so it makes me question this article's accuracy...

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

As in most cases they are they are only telling you half the story to promote their agenda--"anti war"

How would this headline compare--and both would be true.

Troop suicides in 1st 3 years of war were less than 1980 peacetime deaths.

You have 2 entirely diff views--

Lets take a fair and balanced report and then make our decisions on matter.

Army Suicide Rate Highest Since 1980

Soldiers committed suicide last year at the highest rate in 26 years, said a new Army report. About one-quarter of those suicides occurred while the servicemembers were serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to the report released Aug. 16. Produced by the Suicide Risk Management and Surveillance Office at Madigan Army Medical Center, Fort Lewis, Wash., the report lists 99 Army deaths by suicide in 2006, up from 88 the previous year and the highest number since 102 suicides were reported in 1991. The 99 suicides amounted to a rate of 17.3 per 100,000?the highest in the past 26 years, said the report. The average rate over those years has been 12.3 per 100,000. Firearms were the most common method of suicide. There also were 948 unsuccessful suicide attempts by soldiers in 2006, most involving attempts in which servicemembers took overdoses or cut themselves, the report said. The report also noted that there was a significant relationship between suicide attempts and number of days deployed in a combat zone. The rise in suicides comes at a time when Army officials are working to establish a range of new and stronger programs for providing mental health care. To see more, go to: www.army.mil/-news/2007/08/16/4459-army-suicides-up-prevention-efforts-strengthened

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Wayne: Nice work finding the silver lining here. Sick.

I know you are proud of the fact that you can make this link to the 1980 peace time numbers and that makes you feel better, but tht doesn't make it okay. We never should have put the soldiers in this position in the first place. Could have used our military advantages to bomb the living hell out of the places and risked a lot less.

Don't worry, once (if ever) we get out of there, the suicide rate will stay strong and then you can find the silver lining between both peace time suicide rates.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Didn't see a silver lining--just trying to keep folks from being duped by the media--

You'll have to excuse me if I prefer fair and balanced--

The media/liberal blogs keep their lemmings totally in the Land of Oz.

for instance--

If I told you there were 8 years since 1980 that U.S. had more miltary deaths than 2005 ( the worse year in deaths of Iraq + Afgan wars )you think I was crazy--If I told you there were more miltary deaths in Clintons 1st term then GW's you also think I was nuts wouldn't you.

Why--because you been bombarded with opinions-- and oblivious of the facts--

 

[roc612]

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of
the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense
of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is
simply a racket." -- Major General Smedley Darling Butler - (1981-1940) Major
General USMC, "Old Gimlet Eye'' and "Hell Devil Darling", most highly decorated
military men from the pre-World War II era. Source: from a speech in 1933
------------------------------------------------------------------

"I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation
comes
over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the
dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas
to
get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the
flag."
-- Major General Smedley Darling Butler (1981-1940) Major General USMC, "Old
Gimlet
Eye'' and "Hell Devil Darling", most highly decorated military men from the
pre-World
War II era. Source: from a speech in 1933

 

[danmurphy jr]

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of
the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense
of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is
simply a racket." -- Major General Smedley Darling Butler - (1981-1940) Major
General USMC, "Old Gimlet Eye'' and "Hell Devil Darling", most highly decorated
military men from the pre-World War II era. Source: from a speech in 1933
------------------------------------------------------------------

"I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation
comes
over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the
dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas
to
get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the
flag."
-- Major General Smedley Darling Butler (1981-1940) Major General USMC, "Old
Gimlet
Eye'' and "Hell Devil Darling", most highly decorated military men from the
pre-World
War II era. Source: from a speech in 1933

In circa: 1936 - One of the Morgans offered SM Butler 1 million dollars to assasinate FDR.

 

[roc612]

Dogs,
The reason this war is "acceptable or palatable" to so many is because so many in D.C. havent been directly affected by the death and/or severely wounded.The make-up of our armed forces is from the volunteer ranks and the proportion of those coming from a well to do background in the military versus those coming from a "less affluent background " is totally disproportionate. We NEVER touch on this much here but is a fact.
The Majority of the middle class(whats left of it) and above(richer) arent volunteering for this BS war(and had they know that the BS connection Powell sold the UNin late 2002 was an unverified story by our intelligence agencies(we relied on the GERMANS -FYI,-) it would be even more disproportionate.
Also,The media hates to tell the stories of soldiers who know its a BS war being fought because corporate america isnt letting many of those stories hit the airwaves on a daily basis, but when they do its always some "DISGRUNTLED " soldier who is being unpatriotic.
I love how only in the last 7years its become unpatriotic to speak your mind in this country.Luckily i grew up and was taught to think and reason for myself and then trust my own good judgement and intuition. My gut tells me we are lacking leadership -BIGTIME
Go Ron Paul or at worst Go Hillary!!

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

One issue at a time-- I'll be more than happy to address your issues Roc--after I get Code Pink sympathaizers here to acknowledge they been sippin that liberal Kool Aid since the start of war on the matter at hand.

--but be forewarned--your sippin from the same glass

but for starters-- you might want to look up and present us some facts vs opinion on
A:why soilders enlist/volunteer and many times re enlist.
B: education level of military

and if concern for the troops is really an issue for liberals than why is losing war in democrats best interest and why do they try and ban recruiters from schools and why do they try and push anti troop movies--

 

[StevieD]

Excuse me if I miss the "fair and balanced" link. The article that starts the thread talks about Veteran Suicides. Somehow, Wayne tells us it is not the whole story and prints an article dealing with suicides among active soldiers. Somehow, to the twisted neocon mind, the second article is suppose to shed light on the first article.:shrug: Defending this war is a very sick business.

 

[Jabberwocky]

"and if concern for the troops is really an issue for liberals than why is losing war in democrats best interest"

war...hmmm...DTB, what standing army are we fighting?

1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.

remind me, what nation are we at war with?

 

[Jabberwocky]

the twisted neocon mind

thankfully it is a shrinking minority

 

[roc612]

Dogs,
Lets tackle B.) first.. The Military's education level.
Why dont you tell me what the ratio of non- commissioned soldiers that are college educated ground troops to non -commissioned ground troops with a college education .
as far as tackling issue A.)- Why troops enlist/volunteer and then re-enlist many times. Dogs,
what is the total number and the ratio of those re-enlisting versus the total number of overall troops and reserves.How does this ratio compare to re-enlistment ratios when there was a draft?
I love how you imply that the re- enlist rate is a significant number without backing it up.TYPICAL NEOCON!Like these troops are having a party over there in Iraq and afghanistan and were missing that point.
My point from my earlier post was that you wont see GWB''s two daughters or Dick's daughters enlisting and serving in a war zone anytime soon

 

[marine]

Dogs,
Lets tackle B.) first.. The Military's education level.
Why dont you tell me what the ratio of non- commissioned soldiers that are college educated ground troops to non -commissioned ground troops with a college education .

I've posted that number here before. It's fvcking staggering. The % of college grads in the enlisted ranks outnumbers those without a college degree.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Yes you have Marine--they somehow block it from their minds--
--but you have to take in consideration-your speaking to a group that rant about high cost of living-minimum wage-plight of 30% of americans that pay no tax--high cost of college-cost of medical ins ect
--and in the same breath diss a occupation that pays room and board-free medical benefits-full retirement in 20 years of service--and free education.:shrug:

Trying to reason with a liberal is futile--you can only provide the facts to the other observers to show just how off base liberals are.

Case in point--

They throw up some quote by a general--
"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense
of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket."

--others even cut and paste it as if it's some prophetic statement--

so by their logic we should have let Europe fall to Germany--South Korea to North Korea--

but more to the point if we follow his reason for war--we have been attacked on homeland by outside force twice in last 50 years--World Trade in 93 and did nothing and World trade again in 01 and went to war--and guess what- they appluad the one that did nothing and diss the one that went to war--
Make sense:shrug: only in the Land of Oz.

 

[StevieD]

DTB, what did Iraq have to do with the attacks on our homeland? :shrug:

 

[roc612]

Marine and Dogs,
If the numbers are correct -Then I stand corrected.(can you post the link that provides those numbers-thanks).
Dogs,
I doubt its for the 3 hot(or rem's- ready to eat) meals, free room and board that men (and women) with pride are enlisting.Thats your opinion. As for medical - are you aware that Iraq vets only get full VA health benefits for two years after returning from Iraq (if discharged) if they have a job paying 35,000 or more and are deemed relatively healthy .35,000? Do you think the armed services Pysch doctors are doing a good job diagnosing the soldiers who are a loose cannon and then taking their own life. 35,000 ? seems like the government thinks 35,000 is a bunch of cash
As for the quotes - they stand on there own merit. Unless you have walked a least a mile in the shoes of Marine Major General then maybe you should re-read the quotes and actually try to absorb the MESSAGE of the words. He didnt give the speech to hear the sound of his own voice. He could yell at Marines all day if he had wanted that
roc

 

[escarzamd]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

This link does not represent my ideology about our geopolitical choices over the last 20yrs.

I thought the whole "Lower classes overrepresented in the military" argument always a bit soft. Its just not true.

This study/rebuttal came about as a counter to the standard Dem party argument that if there were a draft, then this little Middle east incursion would have ended long ago.......probably true, but what is not mentioned is that a draft would lead DIRECTLY to that major discrepancy in "class" representation, eventually resulting in the kind of grass roots "revolution" against the "war" that gets current Dems all misty-eyed about the college days. The draft would make their job easier, as opposed to just standing up on the ground they're currently deployed on and putting up a real fight, or even a cogent argument.

Granted.......the paper did come off the Heritage foundation website. I don't see alot of "spin" in the article, unless you split hairs over what median income would divide the middle class from the "low-income/poverty level. Bottom line: Volunteer military is a reasonable representation of the demographics in our nation.....and this data excludes the officer corps.

Don't get me wrong.......the DOD and all branches of government are letting a large number of patients slide through the system after leaving active duty. Not just those with long-term physical/nervous system injuries requiring special care..........specifically, psych patients are a failure of our entire health system (another thread altogether), not just the PTSD patients obviously well-represented amongst the veterans. Our long-term management of veterans from the last 40yrs, and support for their families, has been deplorable.

I don't get a good night's sleep after a bad beat sometimes.........I have no earthly idea how a combat veteran can even shave without shaking, how they keep from flinching if a tire blows out nearby. If we can't manage their care after exposing them to the horrors of war, then isn't that just another argument for not sending them into the line of fire.........forgetting for now whether or not it can be "justified".............in the first place?:shrug:

 

[roc612]

I thought the whole "Lower classe...s alot because I believe we were lied to. Roc