Not Sure

[WhatsHisNuts]

Is the proposed bailout an example of fascism or elitist socialism?

I'd like to hear how you small government "conservatives" are selling this to yourselves. I constantly hear people talking about socialism and Marxism being the cornerstone of the Democratic party, then I hear Bush telling us we need to give companies billions.

Please help me understand.

 

[ImFeklhr]

Is the proposed bailout an example of fascism or elitist socialism?

Can't it be both?

As much as FDR bothered me with his endless social programs, this quote of his is relevant.

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."

 

[smurphy]

Is the proposed bailout an example of fascism or elitist socialism?

I'd like to hear how you small government "conservatives" are selling this to yourselves. I constantly hear people talking about socialism and Marxism being the cornerstone of the Democratic party, then I hear Bush telling us we need to give companies billions.

Please help me understand.

:0corn :0corn :0corn

Wayne has thread where he talks AROUND this for about an hour.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Wayne has thread where he talks AROUND this for about an hour.

This thread is aimed directly at Wayne and Weasel. Hannity doesn't have a rebuttal, so I doubt I'll hear from Keecko, Skulnik, or Dr. Freeze.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

So, the guys that are always claiming that the Dems are trying to push "socialistic" programs have nothing to say?

 

[dawgball]

I am one of those claiming to want small government, but I am no economist.

First, we will not get smaller government via the Republican party. That is one of the most common misconceptions out there. The mirror image misconception of the Democratic party is that they care about the middle class any more the Republicans do.

Both parties are for the same thing: bigger government. They help each other keep legitimate parties out by preaching opposite plans for the same goal. This keeps the general public from realizing that neither path is a good one for our country, in general.

On the bailout plan. As a rather inexperienced person when it comes to economics, I don't know what to do. WE have made a big mess of this situation and something must be done.

The bottom line is this. Whatever the Democrats come up with, the Republicans are going to bash. Whatever the Republicans come up with, the Democrats are going to bash. So then they get together, water down all the usefulness, fill it with personal benefits, and the general public once again suffers.

Then the Dems send out their people trumpeting that they just SAVED the common man from the evil Republicans. The Republicans, in turn, will take every turn in pointing out as the economy doesn't improve overnight that it is the Dems fault for "blocking" their proposal.

It's all one big bullshit shell game that I am completely fed up with.

What drives me most insane is the increasing smugness of people who are backing Obama that they are somehow smarter than others. Listen, people, you're just falling for a different line of bullshit.

..then that leaves me falling for the thrid line of bullshit, so really why do we waste our time fecking talking about it.

 

[StevieD]

..then that leaves me falling for the thrid line of bullshit, so really why do we waste our time fecking talking about it.

Most of us on here want the same things. There is a difference of opinion about how to attain those goals. There are a few who are out to protect just themselves but most know what is good for the majority will benefit all. But we have to talk about it. We are in this mess because we let the George Bush and Barny Franks of the world get away with their lines of bull crap and not have them face any responsibility for it. Yes, they say I am responsible but they never suffer ant penalties. The right jumps to defend the crooks on the right and left does the same for their crooks. It is a disgrace. Let these companies fall. Other companies will move in to buy their assests.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

On the bailout plan. As a rather inexperienced person when it comes to economics, I don't know what to do. WE have made a big mess of this situation and something must be done.

Jason: Economics can be extremely complicated. However, there are certain principles that are relatively easy to understand.

1. People respond to incentives: Economics can be considered a study of incentives. This involves both positive AND negative incentives. What is the economic message sent to these companies that make awful, risky decisions? It is that they can afford to because there is a good chance that the government will act as a safety net.

2. Printing money raises prices on a country's goods and services: $700 Billion cash injection will further weaken an already falling dollar. The house of cards can only be built so high.

The short term problems associated with these companies going under will pale in comparison to the long term effects.

 

[Hard Times]

I am one of those claiming to want small government, but I am no economist.

First, we will not get smaller government via the Republican party. That is one of the most common misconceptions out there. The mirror image misconception of the Democratic party is that they care about the middle class any more the Republicans do.

Both parties are for the same thing: bigger government. They help each other keep legitimate parties out by preaching opposite plans for the same goal. This keeps the general public from realizing that neither path is a good one for our country, in general.

On the bailout plan. As a rather inexperienced person when it comes to economics, I don't know what to do. WE have made a big mess of this situation and something must be done.

The bottom line is this. Whatever the Democrats come up with, the Republicans are going to bash. Whatever the Republicans come up with, the Democrats are going to bash. So then they get together, water down all the usefulness, fill it with personal benefits, and the general public once again suffers.

Then the Dems send out their people trumpeting that they just SAVED the common man from the evil Republicans. The Republicans, in turn, will take every turn in pointing out as the economy doesn't improve overnight that it is the Dems fault for "blocking" their proposal.

It's all one big bullshit shell game that I am completely fed up with.

What drives me most insane is the increasing smugness of people who are backing Obama that they are somehow smarter than others. Listen, people, you're just falling for a different line of bullshit.

..then that leaves me falling for the thrid line of bullshit, so really why do we waste our time fecking talking about it.

I like a good joke,just like the next guy.It's a big fulking joke,how they posture in front of the camera and say the shit that dreams are made of.
It's an endless cycle every time the election comes around.
I see that you are wise to the shit. Now that you know whats up,what are we going to do about it.While we slept the last 7 years after 9/11 Bush took measures to implement policy that has the country under such control that you and I are fulked.Bush implemented policy along the lines of the NEW WORLD ORDER.You'er a smart guy,I don't need to say any more to you.Big brother has complete control. Nothing we can do about it

 

[smurphy]

Geez, AR better not come in here too.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I'm definately for small gov and don't like bailouts in general Gary--

The diff in this situation is as always in my interpretation of things--risk vs reward.

What are the consequences if finacial systems are allow to fail.

What are consequences if their bailed out.

I already did my thing on consequences of bailout which will be minimal cost at best and more probable small profit in the end.

You give me your anticipated consequences if financial sytem fails--and we'll try and decide best solution between the 2 of us..

Fair enough!

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

I already did my thing on consequences of bailout which will be minimal cost at best and more probable small profit in the end.

You give me your anticipated consequences if financial sytem fails--and we'll try and decide best solution between the 2 of us..

This isn't a failure of the financial system, it's a failure of companies and deregulation. The Great Depression was an awful result of the government not stepping in, but it taught this country and all the companies an important lesson. That was a short term tragedy traded for long term responsibility. The government put regulations in place to keep it from happening again. Since then, we've done nothing but try to shed those regulations, and here we are.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."
-George Santayana

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

This isn't a failure of the financial system, it's a failure of companies and deregulation. The Great Depression was an awful result of the government not stepping in, but it taught this country and all the companies an important lesson. That was a short term tragedy traded for long term responsibility. The government put regulations in place to keep it from happening again. Since then, we've done nothing but try to shed those regulations, and here we are.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."
-George Santayana

Not arguing that point Gary--the question was now that this has occurred regardless who is at fault--what is the worser of evils.

Which consequences would you be willing to be rsponsible for--the temporary use of our taxes--or the result of what ever happens if we don't.

 

[smurphy]

Dogs, you don't sound like the same person. You sound almost like a socialist.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Not arguing that point Gary--the question was now that this has occurred regardless who is at fault--what is the worser of evils.

Which consequences would you be willing to be rsponsible for--the temporary use of our taxes--or the result of what ever happens if we don't.

Wayne: Let the company fail, let the market correct itself, and let's move on. This country needs a slap in the face and a kick in the ass. I know Republicans don't deal well with reality and budgets, but people need to understand that you can't let companies do whatever the hell they want, you can't fund a war an unneccessary occupation/war with money you don't have, and trickle-down economics doesn't effing work.

I'm not putting this particular situation soley on the Republicans because I don't think it is their fault (specifically). It's the BS system we have in place. We're capitalists when we want to be, we're democratic when we want to be, and we're patriotic if we follow the leader. What a joke.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Furthermore, why don't we help the companies out that try to put things back together again. Screw the crooks that got us into this, let's help the people that can put things back together.

Wayne: How is this not SOCIALISM?????? Tell me!!! How is this capitalism????!!!!

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Depends on whats at stake Smurph.
--and don't think this is give away by any means--as good chance for tax payors to profit in the end--I figurge give aways to be throwing money at entiries you have no chance of recouping.

This is situation where letting the culprits that were irresponsible get what they deserve--would impact entire world not just them--if it was just them I'd say f-em.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Appreciate your answer gary and in priciiple I agree--but believe the consequences are much more severe than you anticipate in this case--however just my opinion.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Appreciate your answer gary and in priciiple I agree--but believe the consequences are much more severe than you anticipate in this case--however just my opinion.

Wayne: I'm not attacking you, just pissed off about this. Either we are a capitalist nation or we're not. The consequences of compromising the very principles that govern our economy are much greater than those tied to the failure of a couple of failing companies.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Wayne: I'm not attacking you, just pissed off about this. Either we are a capitalist nation or we're not. The consequences of compromising the very principles that govern our economy are much greater than those tied to the failure of a couple of failing companies.

No Prob Gary
This was good thread--all contributed something to topic--wish we had more like it.