medical problems cause half of personal bankruptcies...

THE KOD

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Bombs said:
I think you should go to England. Everyone gets healthcare, there are tons of underqualified doctors (you see smart kids in England don't go into medicine because the pay sucks and you are a government troll), and you have to wait in a "queue" even if you need a fairly emergent procedure.
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You see I have no problem with this. Because then it will be up to me to choose my Doctor carefully. I will determine that his qualifications are adequate or I will find one that does.

Thats the fair market system. Not like we have here in the US. We have the get over on all americans system here. Where we have to go bankrupt because we can't afford insurance or have a serious illness.
 

THE KOD

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dr. freeze said:
as stated, i am done. do your reasearch.

i have better things to do
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freeze

thats exactly the point. You don't know.

therin lies the problem.

nice chattin with ya
 

THE KOD

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PRINCETON ? It's barely past daybreak when Dr. Kurt Crowe starts checking on patients at the only hospital in this mid-Illinois city. He's skipped the white lab coat and is dressed casually in a short-sleeved shirt. His shoes pad softly down the hospital's main wing before stopping near the end of the hall. Inside a room, an elderly man with congestive heart failure lies diagonally across his bed. Crowe checks on him before slipping to another room, where the morning news spills from a television.

"Hello, sweetie," he greets a baby girl with breathing problems. Turning to her parents, he asks, "Is she doing any better?" On he moves. Back and forth, from the elderly to the very young, Crowe continues about his day as a family doctor in a small town.

It's up to the 35-year-old Crowe to be an expert on all ailments. He can't call upon a gerontologist for his elderly patient or a pediatrician for the infant. Crowe faces more challenges in this town of 7,500, about 94 miles southwest of Rockford. Some patients drive 40 miles to see a doctor, so many don't get follow-up care or come in until they're quite ill.

After two years in practice, Crowe works harder than he did as a paramedic or medical student in Rockford. He heads into his office each morning, expecting to see 20 patients. He usually sees 35 to 40 by day's end. Still, Crowe said he feels prepared for those challenges. He was among the first to complete training as a rural doctor from the University of Illinois College of Medicine at Rockford.

The largest of its kind in Illinois, the Rural Medical Education Program is designed to prepare students for work in the 80 percent of rural Illinois counties that don't have enough doctors. The first two classes have graduated and are heading to rural communities such as Princeton. The college soon will begin training nurses and pharmacists how to better serve rural patients.

State of rural care

Midmorning at Crowe's clinic brings a wave of babies for routine check-ups. A little boy receives a clean bill of health, then Crowe notices he can't give the child a routine shot. "We don't take (Medicaid) cards for that here," he tells the boy's mother. "But if you go down to the health department, they'll take care of it for you."

Rural towns, including Princeton, bring such challenges to doctors: The elderly constitute more of the population in rural areas. In 1998, 18.4 percent of the rural population was elderly, compared with 15 percent in urban areas. Elderly people frequently require more medical care than younger people.

Poverty is especially high in rural areas. A greater share of rural residents are unemployed, and nearly half of the poor receive government health insurance. Many farm workers lack private health insurance. In 1999, 35 percent of rural residents did not have private insurance. Crowe routinely stashes away free drug samples for them. Some patients drive significant distances to visit a doctor and schedule appointments only when something is wrong.

That means Crowe often shuffles his busy schedule to fit such patients in. Several times each morning, a nurse replaces the list of patients on his office wall with an updated schedule. On average, he said he sees 10 to 15 more patients each day than he would as a family physician at Swedish American Health System in Rockford.

Crowe tries to remember each patient's special needs before he walks into an examination room.

"The underlying question for everybody is, what kind of insurance do they have?" he said. "Every time I walk in, those things are running through my mind."

He also knows that smoking-related illnesses are a big issue in small towns. Crowe thinks his best bet is to address that problem one-on-one with patients.

"I think we need to do a better job just talking to people about their health," he said. "Too often, doctors just assume they'll be upset if we talk about them quitting smoking."

Crowe finds that working as a rural physician requires confidence and self-sufficiency. "You can't always rely on other people for help," he said. "Other people won't be there."

As one of about 10 full-time physicians in Princeton, Crowe sees an extraordinary number of children and pregnant women. That's because there are no pediatricians and only one obstetrician in town.

"You never know what you'll find yourself dealing with," he said. "I don't have a cardiologist. If someone is having a heart attack and comes here, I have to take care of it."

Life as a rural doctor

A boy and his mother are waiting in one of three exam rooms in Crowe's office. After a quick conversation with his nurse, Crowe greets them with a smile. The boy's eye is red and sore. His mother strikes up a conversation as Crowe examines the boy.

"So have you met the new family that moved into the neighborhood?" she asked.

Large cities might have newer technologies and higher salaries, but rural towns offer community connections. Crowe prefers rural life to his years as a Rockford paramedic, rushing to emergency scenes and barely making relationships with patients.

In Princeton, life moves more slowly. A small girl recognizes him in the hospital cafeteria. And home ? where he eats lunch with his family every day ? is minutes from the hospital.

"I've always liked small towns where you know everybody," said Crowe, who grew up in a 1,000-resident Wisconsin town. "I could work somewhere else and make more money, but do I want the lifestyle?"

Dr. Mary Simmons, also a graduate of the Rockford medical college's rural doctor program, also appreciates that closeness. "I have that sense of community," said Simmons, who practices in Belvidere with SwedishAmerican Health System. "We've all had a similar experience living in Belvidere and Boone County."

Still, working as a small-town physician can be frustrating. Crowe wishes he could spend more time on community education. He wants to take a few extra minutes to chat with patients about other problems in their lives. But there often isn't time.

"I'm already working 80 hours a week seeing people," he said. "Really what I'm doing is keeping my head above water day to day."

Rural medical education

A shortage of technicians, pharmacists and nurses has hospitals everywhere struggling to recruit workers. That problem is exacerbated in small towns. Crowe regularly sees nurses at Princeton's Perry Memorial Hospital carry heavier workloads as a result of understaffing.

"This hospital in particular is getting killed by it," he said. "Nurses can go somewhere like St. Francis in Peoria, make twice as much and not be on call every other night."

The Rockford medical college is creating a center to teach doctors, nurses, social workers, pharmacists and dentists about cooperation in small towns.

"If they are out there, they need to learn to work with other disciplines and be able to look at it from other perspectives," said Cheryl Carlson, who heads the Rural Health Professions Education, Evaluation and Research Center.

So far, most of the applicants for the rural program are white. Although there have been a handful of Asian and Hispanic students, the program hasn't pushed to racially diversify its classes. "If there are rural communities with large concentrations of minorities, we would love to have them," said Michael Glasser, assistant dean for rural health professions. The true evaluation of the rural medical program's success is yet to come. The real measure will be whether graduates stay committed to rural medicine.

"The story isn't done yet," said Crowe. "Four to five years down the road, (the college) will be able to see who went on to work in rural communities, and then they'll be able to see if they're successful."
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Are the millions really worth it.

Maybe its time to get back to basics.
 

THE KOD

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'Hahnemann's policy on fees for his services had not changed throughout his career...fees were calculated on a sliding scale according to the patient's means, whereby the very poor would pay nothing at all.' (Cook, p173)

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THE KOD

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"I think this gives a fairly good insight into his likely workload. My own feeling is that he saw around 3000 patients per year and thus spent on average 35 minutes with each. That also fits in very well with modern data and allows for a combination of some shorter consultations (10-30 mins) and some longer ones (45-90 mins). It is tempting to up this estimate to 4000 per year but that reduces the average consultation time to only 27 minutes which I feel is too short. But, as Rima says, it is hardly likely that he spent 1.5 hours with each patient. 30-50 mins seems much more likely as an average. On the other hand it is perfectly conceivable that a man of his ability and immense experience could perhaps have worked much faster, and seen 15 or 20 patients a day, employing consultation times of only 20 minutes."
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this was in the 1600's
 

THE KOD

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Health Care Treatment Prices In Swedish Hospitals

Among the important reforms to the Medicare model in Stockholm, no single step has been of greater importance than the restoration of prices for health care procedures in hospitals. The acronym for the price tag per treatment is known as ?Diagnostic Related Group?. The DRG price mechanism, introduced in 1990, underpins the remarkable increases in productivity and efficiency in the delivery of publicly funded Swedish health care. By attaching an official price tag to every hospital treatment, government budget makers enabled providers both to improve their performance and to shift the system?s focus to the needs of health-care consumers.


In a single-payer model without prices, providers and consumers both act out a classic ?tragedy of the commons.? Health-care workers do everything possible to treat patients successfully, which is their mission, and people who need treatment tend to swamp the system with demand. Funders constricted by budgets try to control runaway costs by putting a ceiling on the volume of care, an action which creates shortages and waiting lists. When compensation beyond the limit is reduced or withdrawn, the production of services slows down and even stops.

Putting prices back into the equation in Sweden changed incentives. The system was told not only that hospital funding could be improved by the increased production of services, but also that private providers were available to perform treatments on an equal basis. This stimulus to productivity required that reimbursement levels be transparent, stable and reliable. The fairness implicit in the DRG pricing system and the information it conveyed enabled purchasers to be split from providers within publicly funded healthcare.
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Damn

I am swedish.

They seem to have it going on.

Sounds very familiar.
 
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Bombs

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Scott-Atlanta said:
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You see I have no problem with this. Because then it will be up to me to choose my Doctor carefully. I will determine that his qualifications are adequate or I will find one that does.

Thats the fair market system. Not like we have here in the US. We have the get over on all americans system here. Where we have to go bankrupt because we can't afford insurance or have a serious illness.

There is little choice in the England system. You get what is allocated to you.
 

MrChristo

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dr. freeze said:
do you buy your car at the sticker price?

do you buy your home for what the listed price is?

Are you suggesting that people haggle? :thinking:

Not sure how relevant this is....but in Australia we have 'Medicare', a government subsidised, well, heath-care I guess.
The government pays a set amount per visit to a doctor (GP)...and the patient pays the 'gap', or makes up the rest of the doctor's fee.
Was a big issue leading up to the last election...so the government made sure that this subsidy would stand even though it was costly a lot of tax $.

So...what does the AMA (Aust. Medical Assosiation) do a week after the election?...Increase doctors charges per visit. :rolleyes: ....Obivously hurting the people who now have to pay more of a gap, and also putting a larger strain on the public health fund.
Crazy...Well, greedy is a better term.
 

SixFive

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interesting thread. I'll post a few comments.

Litigation is in fact the top reason for skyrocketing health care costs. Health professionals do truly see each new patient as a possible lawsuit. If I have heard 1 patient threaten "lawsuit" I have heard 1000. I'm sure it's far worse even in more metropolitan areas.

If you don't have insurance and get sick and have bills, NEVER pay the listed amount without first negotiating. 25-40% is probably legit and you owe it, and it would be about what they would get from the insurance companies if you had been insured. If you have the cash to pay the bill, nearly all hospitals will knock off 20-25% (even off the negotiated balance) if you will write them a check for the balance. I once owed 2000 (my part per the insurance company and non-negotiable) for a hospital stay, I asked for a cash discount, and I mailed them a check for 1500. NEVER pay the balance on a credit card. Send monthly payments to them for what you can afford, and as long as you don't miss payments and stay current with your payment history, you WILL NOT be charged interest like you will from a credit card. Medical bill debt is far better than credit card debt.

I'm no socialist by any means, but I think the health care industry is in big trouble. I expect huge changes in the near future that will impact us all.

Hospitals everywhere are having a hard time staffing nurses, and there are shortages everywhere. If you are willing to be mobile, a RN with a 2 year degree can easily make 6 figures not including free rent and other living expenses.

Most doctors that I know and work with respect nurses and realize that they are vital to them, however, this is usually a superficial respect, and nurses are not considered equals ESPECIALLY outside the workplace in the community.

I like Dr. Freeze, and I think he adds insight to this forum. I think he is also a bit arrogant and does not fully respect nurses, especially CRNAs (obvious by posts). I also think he mentioned at one time in the past he was going into Dermatology, but I could be remembering incorrectly. I don't understand why his field would need to go unmentioned.

I have never run into a surgeon or even known of one who committed a grievous error such as operating on the wrong leg. I think stories of this are inflated, over reported, and are an infinitesimal proportion of surgeries performed. Surgeons do work hard. People who aren't in the industry just see surgeons on tv or on makeover shows and don't appreciate their hard work.

Dentist rant. I truly believe there are far more crooks and "over-treaters" in that industry than there are in general healthcare. Restorative dentistry is the thing now. IF you have silver colored fillings (amalgam) in your mouth as most of us do, THEY WILL NOT CAUSE CEREBAL PALSY or whatever else a dentist might tell you. Don't fall for the restorative bs. Many dentists now work for corporations who pay the building rent, pay for the equipment, and who pay their salaries, and if you don't think they have quotas on certain procedures, you are flat misled. Most people don't have dental insurance, and if they do, it sucks anyway. Being a dentist is a license to print money. If you want to get rich, don't go into medicine, go into dentistry. Rant off.

I have a good friend and member of my regular poker game who has supplied me with a lot of my dental industry knowledge plus what I have learned from my own life experiences. Not all dentists are crooks but enough are that you have to be knowledgeable and protect yourself. Just because a dentist says you need a fillling, crown, bridge, replacement fillings, zoom whitening, etc. doesn't make it so.
 

THE KOD

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Bombs said:
. If you do only general stuff like gallbladders and simple abdomen cases, you are lucky to make 200 a year.
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Bombs

Do you realize how that sounds to alot of
people in the working world.

You are beginning to sound like our athletes.

Except they are lucky to make 10 million and they always want more.
 

THE KOD

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Eddie Haskell said:
Bombs:

You said if you want to make money "...be a trial lawyer." I can't believe it. That comment alone cost you any credibility you may have had.

Eddie
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Eddie

Thank you friend of mine.

I knew this guy couldn't find his ass with both hands.

By the way how much do trial lawyers make ?

thanks

KOD
 

THE KOD

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SixFive said:
Litigation is in fact the top reason for skyrocketing health care costs. Health professionals do truly see each new patient as a possible lawsuit. If I have heard 1 patient threaten "lawsuit" I have heard 1000. I'm sure it's far worse even in more metropolitan areas.
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Six

My sister is a RN and I get alot of information from her. She gets mad at me sometimes over the things that I ask. Can you imagine having me as a brother.

I can only respond to this by saying that people in the medical field like to say the costs are going up because of litigation. Thats the end result of these costs rising.

The reason is that there is alot of screw ups going on. Crazy things that happen every day with poor health care and mistakes. When you can enter a hospital for treatment and get a infection from the hospital environment and die, then something is seriously wrong.

The 5% of Drs that make big time mistakes but keep their license due to unions or whatever is growing. It may be 10-15% now. And thus the litigation.





Geez Louise this just aint that complicated.
 

THE KOD

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SixFive said:
I'm no socialist by any means, but I think the health care industry is in big trouble. I expect huge changes in the near future that will impact us all.
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Six

Yeh the times they are a changing.

We will drag the Drs kicking and screaming. What they don't realize yet is that it will be for the good of everyone and they will still make a higher salary than most Americans. And that is as it should be.
 

THE KOD

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Health Care in German Society

Germany's health care system provides its residents with nearly universal access to comprehensive high-quality medical care and a choice of physicians. Over 90 percent of the population receives health care through the country's statutory health care insurance program. Membership in this program is compulsory for all those earning less than a periodically revised income ceiling. Nearly all of the remainder of the population receives health care via private for-profit insurance companies. Everyone uses the same health care facilities.

Although the federal government has an important role in specifying national health care policies and although the L?nder control the hospital sector, the country's health care system is not government run. Instead, it is administered by national and regional self-governing associations of payers and providers. These associations play key roles in specifying the details of national health policy and negotiate with one another about financing and providing health care. In addition, instead of being paid for by taxes, the system is financed mostly by health care insurance premiums, both compulsory and voluntary.

In early 1993, the Health Care Structural Reform Act (Gesundheitsstrukturgesetz--GSG) came into effect, marking the end of a more than a century-long period in which benefits and services under statutory public health insurance had been extended to ever larger segments of the population. Rising health expenditures may prompt policy makers to impose further restrictions on providers and consumers of health care. These high expenditures have been caused by a rapidly aging population (retirees' costs rose by 962 percent between 1972 and 1992), the intensive and costly use of advanced-technology medical procedures, and other economic and budgetary pressures. As of mid-1995, the drafting of new reform proposals was under way.
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Bombs

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Scott-Atlanta said:
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Bombs

Do you realize how that sounds to alot of
people in the working world.

You are beginning to sound like our athletes.

Except they are lucky to make 10 million and they always want more.

You go to school for 8 years, train for 7 more, work 60-80 hours a week your entire life, get called at all hours, and work almost every weekend. You have 200k of debt coming out of school. And you could get your ass sued to pieces for something completely out of your control at any time. Does that 200k a year sound like a great deal any more?

Your conception of a doctor's life and pay and stress level is just completely off. You make it sound like being a doctor is the easiest thing in the world and anyone can do it.

I understand that the costs in medicine are too high.

This is related to many factors, but tort reform is certainly necessary. Defensive medicine has gotten out of control and it has driven unnecessary costs into the stratosphere. If we didnt order CT scans on everyone who walks into the ER, that would save billions right there.

Certainly, blatant ERRORS (like cutting off the wrong leg, etc.) should be prosecuted. These errors are NOT THE PROBLEM WITH HIGH COSTS. These errors are also certainly not common. It is the frivolous lawsuits brought up by ambulance chasers all across america that lead to huge malpractice costs.

You seem to be in love with European government run health care systems. I have relatives all over Europe. While they acknowledge that their healthcare is free, they also complain that it sucks, and there is tons of government controls. If they want anything important done, they have to pay under the table. And if they have a serious problem, they come here.

You stated a lot of completely erroneous crap on here, that is why I got defensive. Trust me, I agree much needs to be done to fix our healthcare system. But it is not as bad as you make it out to me, and the care is still very, very good.

As a final point, my mother died of MS and was in and out of hospitals for 20 years. The hospitals and the insurance companies screwed us left and right with the bills. Even after she was DEAD, they were billing for things that the insurance company claimed took place. She died 2 years ago and my father is still haggling over some of them. So don't accuse me of being out of touch with your situation.
 

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It is also worth noting that the salaries (inflation adjusted, etc.) have trended down over the past 30 years save those in some specialties where you can make a lot of money secondary to doing a huge number of procedures (i.e. derm). Incidentally, most of those specialties do a ton of elective stuff and have people paying for stuff they want completely out of pocket. None of this would be covered under any government health care system.

Without a doubt, your internist, hospitalist, or basic general surgeon was much better off financially 20 years ago.
 

Bombs

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I must say I did like the part about heart surgeons not deserving huge salaries. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, takes a great deal of skill and knowledge, requires tons of training, and consumes your life. And it saves the lives of others.

Can you think of any other job that should pay more?

And no, I'm not a heart surgeon, I don't have the talent for it.
 

dr. freeze

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euros also dont have to fool around in their courts as we do here

6-5, didnt say i dont respect nurses

i said many doctors become bitter because crnas make more than them....peds, FP's, and internists included.....some jobs dont even pay 6 figures...i know crnas that almost make 200

i never fault anyone for making money if their job serves people nad helps the citizenry as a whole....they made better business decisions than FP's and pediatricians and more power to them i say

again you people need to realize that doctors are making less than they used to for the work they do yet health care costs are going the other way....
 
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