The Hidden Health Tax

[gardenweasel]

why pay for food?....clothing?...maybe we shouldn`t work at all?...

where does it stop?...

bobby..you`re comparing government funding basic services that are necessities in an orderly,civilized society like the police,fire depts. and the military?....... with providing healthcare for almost 300 million people?....

do you have difficulty finding your way home from work?...

the fundamental problem with universal health care is the faulty premise that health care is a right. ...it`s not...it`s a need ,not a right...rights are freedoms of action (such as the right to free speech), not automatic claims on goods or services that must be produced by others.....

the fire and police depts...the military...these are necessities... services that are necessary("absolute" necessities) to prevent all out anarchy in a civilzed society...not healthcare...and as smurph inadvertently pointed out,everybody in this country already gets healthcare...whether they`re a citizen or not...whether they`re a deadbeat or not...

smurph knows he`ll get healthcare whether he`s insured or not...and he doesn`t have to pay...everybody elsee picks up the tab...that`s why he isn`t willing to pay...

yeah,he`s gonna pay out of pocket for colon cancer surgery,chemo/radiation and all the other incidentals?..you think for a second that smurph wouldn`t have healthcare if he thought he could be denied service?....lol.........i`m beginning to believe that smurphy,bobby and kosar have all had their monickers nic-jacked by some pernicious 3-year old...:lol:

medicare`s failing...social security is going bankrupt....so lets pile more things the government does horrifically onto the shitpile?...

do you balance a budget?.. i doubt it...

what the morans(and i say that with affection) fail to understand is that whenever the government attempts to guarantee universal medical care, it must also control its costs.....you think you`ll get the quality of care you get now?...the quality of care that congress gets?....and will continue to get?...

here comes rationing(with some bureaucrat in washington deciding what care you get) -- and it's the old and the weak who will suffer.....

as hugo chavez can tell you, converting a once-prosperous nation into a socialist hellhole takes time, and doesn't happen overnight...

well,hugo,you should be taking lessons from nobama...you`re in the slow lane by comparison....

 

[Cie]

Cie, you call me a broken record but you do not call Dogs or Weasel a broken record for complaining about Obama's spending to get us out of the mess that Bush built. I find that confusing because you claim not to align yourself with any political party or affiliation yet you only dump on one side. Interesting is all I am saying. And for the record I am disapointed that Obama has not put revamping the Health Care System on top og his agenda. I think it would go a long way in helping other problems.

Wake up, "pal" :director: I agree with DTB and GW that Obama is fiscally irresponsible.

 

[StevieD]

Wake up, "pal" :director: I agree with DTB and GW that Obama is fiscally irresponsible.

What a surprise!!!!!!:142smilie :142smilie

Wake up Pal you are still a hard core republican:scared

 

[gardenweasel]

sex changes?

COVERED!





dialysis for seniors?

not so much!

 

[Cie]

What a surprise!!!!!!:142smilie :142smilie

Wake up Pal you are still a hardcore republican:scared

Hardcore republicans are pro-same sex marriage, pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, pro-withdrawal of troops from Iraq, and pro-energy conservation? I had no idea.

How many hardcore republicans, aside from myself, believe that our actions over the past 20 years have turned much of the world against us?

Sponge calls me a Neo-con because I backed the Iraq war until I realized the disaster it really was. You call me a hard-core republican because I believe the O is fiscally irresponsible. Tenzig(I think) called me whacko liberal because I do not believe that Obam is Indonesian. Seriously, this place is like an asylum:mj07:

 

[gardenweasel]

What a surprise!!!!!!:142smilie :142smilie

Wake up Pal you are still a hard core republican:scared

republican`s and conservative`s aren`t the same thing,stevie....bush is a republican...mccain is a republican(sort of)....reagan was a conservative..

are you a liberal or a democrat?...or both?...

please don`t dodge the question...

 

[StevieD]

Hardcore republicans are pro-same sex marriage, pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, pro-withdrawal of troops from Iraq, and pro-energy conservation? I had no idea.

How many hardcore republicans, aside from myself, believe that our actions over the past 20 years have turned much of the world against us?

Sponge calls me a Neo-con because I backed the Iraq war until I realized the disaster it really was. You call me a hard-core republican because I believe the O is fiscally irresponsible. Tenzig(I think) called me whacko liberal because I do not believe that Obam is Indonesian. Seriously, this place is like an asylum:mj07:

No, I call youi a hardcore Republican because you do not see that we are in the trouble we are in because of the 8 years that Bush had everything his way. Obama has to spend money to get us out of this mess. I do not agree with the bank or auto bailouts. Those were started by Bush, with both Obama and McCain running to Washington to be sure to vote FOR them. I believe in letting the free market take care of itself. But I agree we need to spend money to fix the infrastructure that BUSH ignored for so many years. That is the American Infrastructure not Iraqs.

 

[StevieD]

republican`s and conservative`s aren`t the same thing,stevie....bush is a republican...mccain is a republican(sort of)....reagan was a conservative..

are you a liberal or a democrat?...or both?...

please don`t dodge the question...

GW I wil gladly answer. First off Bush is a classic Neocon. I have been screaming for years that he is not a conservative.
As for myself I don't know what I am. I am more radical than Obama and the Dems. I have no use for Republicans. No use for the Dems under Pelosi and the gang. I like some of what Obama has done and I dislike a lot of what he has done. I am mostly pissed off about what he has not done than what he has done. Call me a Radical. :shrug:

 

[gardenweasel]

GW I wil gladly answer. First off Bush is a classic Neocon. I have been screaming for years that he is not a conservative.
As for myself I don't know what I am. I am more radical than Obama and the Dems. I have no use for Republicans. No use for the Dems under Pelosi and the gang. I like some of what Obama has done and I dislike a lot of what he has done. I am mostly pissed off about what he has not done than what he has done. Call me a Radical. :shrug:

bush...bush...bush...

i know what you are,stevie...you`re what guys like obama pray for...the easily influenced...those that will blindly follow as long as someone is giving them stuff that others have worked hard for....

it`s a great strategy,i admit...

 

[The Sponge]

Sponge calls me a Neo-con because I backed the Iraq war until I realized the disaster it really was. :

i dont think i ever called u a neo-con unless it was in the early stages of my residence here.:shrug:

 

[The Sponge]

bush...bush...bush...

i know what you are,stevie...you`re what guys like obama pray for...the easily influenced...those that will blindly follow as long as someone is giving them stuff that others have worked hard for....

it`s a great strategy,i admit...

You calling anyone easily influence got to be the joke of the year. I think Tramp hit it right on the nose. You actually believe u are bright. What u and ur thinking are, is nothing more then a burden on this country. A true cancer to working people in this country. I can't even stomach u or ur garbage thoughts anymore and i think it is time to put u on ignore. You sit there with ur garbage thoughts and act like people should put politics on the back burner and still be friends. U are a despicable person who i wouldn't want to spend five fukin seconds with. You really are a piece of trash. Good fuking riddens.

 

[StevieD]

bush...bush...bush...

i know what you are,stevie...you`re what guys like obama pray for...the easily influenced...those that will blindly follow as long as someone is giving them stuff that others have worked hard for....

it`s a great strategy,i admit...

You are nuts! Read what I said. I hate Bush. I am undecided on Obama. I like some of what he has done and I dislike a lot. How am I a follower? Who am I following? You have drunk so much Kool Aid your eyes are red! It is not my fault that you love Bush and think everything was hunky dory until the day O was elected.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

This thread is great. I got quite a few laughs out of it. Thanks neo-cons.

 

[smurphy]

smurph knows he`ll get healthcare whether he`s insured or not...and he doesn`t have to pay...everybody elsee picks up the tab...that`s why he isn`t willing to pay...

you are incorrect

 

[smurphy]

Smurph If any consolation--the majority of young-single males who are not provided benefits thru employment-opt not to carry coverage--it's the feeling of being invincible at that age. Matter of fact when you hear all the harping from politicians and media about millions in U.S. not covered by healthcare--it is not due to cost but due to fact regardless of cost they don't feel it necessary.

Ran quote on male age 30 non smoker-
Cost of best major medical plan here is $126/month for $250 ded
and $67 a month for $2,500 ded.

--again not chastising you as the bulk of those in your position hold same view.

--its all about transferring risk you don't want to cover yourself.
At young ages your risk
(chances of getting sick--and what you have to lose in event you do and can't pay)
--is not that great--as you get older
As you get older and accumulate more both those risks will increase.

It's not because I feel invcincible...I certainly don't. It's because it's a complete ripoff and at the moment I certainly cannot afford it.

 

[gardenweasel]

It's not because I feel invcincible...I certainly don't. It's because it's a complete ripoff and at the moment I certainly cannot afford it.

smurph...i always thought you were a very intelligent guy who makes a nice living.....

i can`t figure how a guy like that,without a family to support(which is just fine and dandy...being single can be a wonderful thing...there are times i wish i were...and i may still become one...maybe we can hang out?....lol) can`t afford a healthplan?....

your employer has no affiliation with a healthcare provider?...

dude...i seriously worry about you...:shrug:

 

[smurphy]

smurph...i always thought you were a very intelligent guy who makes a nice living.....

i can`t figure how a guy like that,without a family to support(which is just fine and dandy...being single can be a wonderful thing...there are times i wish i were...and i may still become one...maybe we can hang out?....lol) can`t afford a healthplan?....

your employer has no affiliation with a healthcare provider?...

dude...i seriously worry about you...:shrug:

That's nothing new. You worry about everything.

My mother works in the occupational medicine field. She has countless stories of people who have done all the right things regarding health insurance, and were burned when they needed support from their providers. Some people die because the providers fight them to the bitter end - doing everything they can to avoid actually helping their clients. It's all about profit. They pay medical reviewers six figures to figure out a way for them to weasel out of paying for life-saving procedures.

It's a bad system. Their goal is to turn record profits at our expense. It's much more prudent to put that health care money into an account. Pay for the small stuff out of pocket. If something big happens, shop around. The power of cash is a lot better than being Kaiser or Humana's bitch, dying while fighting them to do what they promised when you signed the contract.

 

[Chadman]

Two thoughts on this stuff - first, it's amazing to me how often folks on both sides of the political theory aisle ridicule the other side as being stupid, ignorant, blind, followers, unworthy of listening to or reading, etc. Simply, pretty much, because they disagree with them. Then they'll post pretty much the same stuff, and expect others to give them credit or think they are "right." Maybe some should stop and think a little bit, challenge yourselves and your thinking, try to come up with an idea, change the way you look at something, write a legislator, etc. Then again, maybe not in some cases...

Second, along the same lines, the healthcare issue seems have people protecting their own interests, blaming other entities, and taking no responsibility for their own roles (or their business sector roles) in the situation we find ourselves in. For example (not ripping anyone, I understand why you take the positions you do... like I defend lawyers from time to time because my wife is one) Saint says how can you blame doctors for this. Wayne says you can't blame insurance companies. Eddie says you can't blame lawyers. Others say the biggest problem is illegals using the system. Others blame big pharma, others the hospitals and clinics. And of course, Conservatives scream about socialism when we talk about single payer or government roles in this. Liberals scream for that, and say the other side is protecting big business and rich CEO's.

Yet, nobody seems to want to allow that probably the entire system needs to be modified, as all areas have a role in why we pay so much these days.

Interesting. Or, maybe not. But I think it's true. Nobody will give an inch, everyone else has to. This will get us nowhere. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

 

[gardenweasel]

That's nothing new. You worry about everything.

My mother works in the occupational medicine field. She has countless stories of people who have done all the right things regarding health insurance, and were burned when they needed support from their providers. Some people die because the providers fight them to the bitter end - doing everything they can to avoid actually helping their clients. It's all about profit. They pay medical reviewers six figures to figure out a way for them to weasel out of paying for life-saving procedures.

It's a bad system. Their goal is to turn record profits at our expense. It's much more prudent to put that health care money into an account. Pay for the small stuff out of pocket. If something big happens, shop around. The power of cash is a lot better than being Kaiser or Humana's bitch, dying while fighting them to do what they promised when you signed the contract.

i don`t disagree that system isn`t perfect....but it`s not "broken"...

if i call for an appointment and it's urgent, i get to see a doctor the same day ...if not urgent, appointment within a week or so......if after hours, there are "urgent care" clinics open 'til 11 at night where i can go....and emergency rooms..

if i need an x-ray or ct scan or lab work or an ekg - can have it done the same day, either at at my doctor's office or another facility, with a quick visit back with him for results....

other procedures might take a day or two or three to set up.


personally,i don't like the idea of my hospital and other medical bills being needlessly inflated to pay for the emergency room visits that the uninsured make....i mean,you live in california..their budget situation is a result in no small part of the burden that illegal immigration has placed on the state...

and i don`t like the fact that our current employer-based health care system puts a huge cost burden on our nation's employers - a burden that prevents them from creating more jobs....but believe me,the governmental burden on busness will be just as heavy...

who do you want deciding what care you ultimately get?...the doctor who has felt your abdomen, listened to your heartbeat, and knows your drug allergies? ..or the bureaucrat who got his job by telling the right joke to the right person at the right washington cocktail party?...

at least in this system,you have the option of paying yourself,as you stated...in a single payer governmental system,you`ll be waiting in line with the n`er do wells,regardless...

i won`t have the choice because by it`s very nature,"free"(that`s the magic word,isn`t it?)health care will put independent insurers out of business...

for me,it comes down to the fact that i just don`t buy the leftist truism that "everybody deserves equally good health care." ....

sorry...that sounds wonderful in theory,but it brings us back to some of the fundamental principles of any non-communist system..if mike , for example, spends his whole life working hard for the very purpose of "living comfortably" in his old age, and if part of living comfortably means top-notch medical care; and if june watches her diet and exercises and avoids illegal drugs and denies herself excessive pleasures in order to remain perfectly healthy; then why in the world should mike have to subsidize bob who doesn`t work,and has spent his life so far being an irresponsible slob; and why should june have to subsidize jean, who collects welfare and eats junkfood by the truckload and has a litany of ailments to show for it?...why should june and bob have to wait in the government line for their care...and subsidize these wastes of carbon?....and i`m not even talking about illegals...

so many issues...malpractice,drug costs(will private companies continue to research and produce cutting edge medicine and treatments with the cost cutting gov`t paying them peanuts?)...

ask saint about national healthcare...i`ll bet as a dentist,he pulls that tooth instead of putting a crown on it...


you get the quality of care you pay for....
just like anything else in a free market society...
free care= low quality for the masses...

no thanks..

 

[Chadman]

Just came across this, from AARP, which I would consider do be a pretty good source, and magnifies one area, which has been defended here - the drug manufacturers:

From 2002 to 2007, prescription drug prices increased by 50 percent, more than 2? times faster than inflation.

For those that think we should leave them alone, and leave the system as it is - who is this serving, exactly? Have we been flooded with 50 percent more drugs in the past few years? Is all that money going to research and development? Or are these companies jacking up the prices - unwatched and unencumbered - and all of us are paying the price? And here's the other thing - when these companies do find a unique drug, or can benefit from FDA approval expiring on another competitor, what happens then? They kick up the price a bazillion percent, and nobody should care? That's ok with you "leave the system alone" proponents? Don't you understand we ALL pay for this problem (or "business opportunity", as it were?)?