6.1% unemployment don't complain.

[Turfgrass]

Just tell me who made this statement:

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

No clue? That was Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail in October of 2002. Now, try this one:

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."

That statement is from none other than Teddy Kennedy, the man who now says that the entire war in Iraq is a fraud.

The war on terror has been focused on Iraq. One of the most brutal and dangerous dictators in history is out of power. Millions of Iraqis celebrate their freedom from Saddam's brutality. America and the rest of the world is safer today because we had a president who dared to take the war on terror to foreign soil, rather than fight it defensively at home. The safety of Americans in their homes and places of work is, to Democrats, secondary to their determination to return to their rightful position of power in Washington D.C. Sabotaging the war on terror, and reversing the gains made in Iraq are a price Democrats are willing to let America pay if it will result in their return to power.

 

[kosar]

Ace,

There are a couple different angles to your questions, IMO. Yes, I think it's certainly possible that some sort of WMD are found somewhere down the line. At the same time, I think that it's certainly possible that due to our impending invasion, they were able to get some of them out of the country. The exact same thing that we were trying to prevent. I have always maintained, before and after the war, that they almost certainly have/had some sort of chemicals in the country somewhere.

That said, even if they find some barrels of toxins somewhere down the line, I think that that would be a pretty weak justification for the invasion. Some shrill people like to make the point that they could be exported and used by terrorists, etc. Yes, the *could* have. Except that there was never ANY evidence that Iraq had tried to do that and no evidence that they had ties to terrorists in the first place.

A meeting or two held in Iraq between foreign national terroists can be cited, but nothing compared to the planning meetings held in London and Germany and even the good ol' USA. The nature of their closed, secular society was also a safeguard against what is happening now. Terrorist infestation, possible export of WMD etc.

When I refer to 'failure', i'm not in any way talking about WMD because I really don't think it matters one way or another, other than politically. Sure, if they are out there, it would be nice to find them before others do, but that wouldn't have been a concern before.

By failure, or hopelessness, I mean that it will be impossible to set up any sort of government there that won't be fraught with revolutions, coups and lots of bloodshed. Let alone a democracy. Something that we can't seem to grasp in our arrogance, is that religion trumps all over there. It is too powerful to allow us to twist and mold any country in that region the way that we want to.

No matter if we leave today or 5 years from now, there will be a vacuum, and the difference between the resulting situation and Saddams previous regime might be minimal or moderate. Is this difference enough to justify maybe a half-trillion dollars before it's over? Or severely straining our military for years? Let alone the near daily deaths.

At this point, *any* justification for this war has been a failure (i'll ignore the 'save the poor iraqi's' excuse for obvious reasons). But more than that, even if they do manage to scrape up some barrells of chemicals, it makes little difference.

Although I hope it never comes to a war on the Korean penninsula, let's look at the difference there. They are saying that they have nukes, that they will make more and that they will begin testing them soon. Flat out. That barely gets a blip on the radar screen.

But all we hear is how tough Bush is and how a president is finally 'doing something' about terrorists by invading a terribly weak country with few or no terrorists. He's got Al-Queda on the run alright, right towards Baghdad.

 

[djv]

Marine your living in the best place. Next best is Australia. Better then Our friends to the north and even England. I never questioned that so im not sure why you asked. But I am getting sick of us thinking we have to be some heros for the world. So far it seems to bring 50/50 results. 50% hate are ass and 50% love are ass. But have there hands in our pockets. Hell maybe it even 70/30 love hate. Just shows we dont have the right or all the answers for the world and they dont want are help. Iraq was no answer to anything. I liked Bill Clinton for things he did for Vets. I was happy for all the folks that had jobs. I was not happy with his BJ chit. I like Bob Dowel a very good man. He and Clinton working togeather did a lot for all of us. Yes to you who think not. I voted for Bush. I just did not like Gore all that much. I also voted for Nixon witch shows my judgement is not so good all the time. And this time it looks like I screwed up again. I said from the start and was one of the few here that did. Iraq was a piss ant in our way that would cost us lots of money to prove little. Anytime we wanted we could have done this half ass job. Only thing that was important to me was stay the course till we were done with Bin. The real murder of 9/11 with his friends in Suadi and there money.
Kosar you are correct we will piss away 90 to 100 billion in Iraq. And if we used it here. Both house of congress would go nuts trying to say where it should go and why. Thats there job and it would be good for them to do it. This Iraq money trail has rubber stamp written all over it. You have to wonder how many crooks are doing well with our cash. That would be money from every american. And for those that state 70% of the country supported war in Iraq. Well it's funny now how its at half or less. Of course now that more know the truth Iraq was little or no threat. The stories we heard were mostly BS. Lets see nukes he had them. Maybe coming here in suite cases. You bet, Drones that will fly here and gas us. You bet. And of course he had something to do with 9/11. Now it's funny are White House says thats not true we never said that. Chit we were led to believe Iraq was just one big Chemical Factory. Well now the truth seems to be they destroyed most or all as they were told in 91/92. I still say we will find something damming one way or the other before the next election. We just wont no the truth about it either.

 

[StevieD]

If they do find something I bet you won't see them quoting Hillary! It will be their idea again!

 

[Master Capper]

DJV,

I think you have hit the nail right on the head, this so called war on terror was presented by a misleading administration with false pretenses on exactly what was true. Going back to the false claim on Iraq trying to buy enriched Uranium ffrom Africa to the claims the terrorist were being trained in Iraq for Bin Laden. The sad thing is that Cheney was on the sunday talk shows recently and he still doesnt get it that the lies have been exposed, he was still spouting that old mantra about Saddam having links to 9/11, even old GW had to come out the next day and say that there were no such links. The public is gradually catching on to this farce that was put on by the current regime, I think it stinks to high heaven that Halliburton is getting paid all of this $$ when they never had to go through a bidding process and Cheney is still getting compensation from the company. The people have begun to grasp on to the game that this administration has been playing and I think that is why GW's ratings are falling so swiftly, the American public will rally around the troops whenever the need arises but they will quickly turn on a administration that has been dishonest for so long. As far as George trying to save face with the UN I read the text of his speech and he still doesnt get it, he is still trying to defend going into Iraq was the right thing to do and everyone else in the world was wrong was his message. Bottom line on this tale is that Iraq was not a training ground for Bin Laden's forces, they are opposite religions and Bin Laden and Saddam had a dislike for each other in the first place, the weapons of mass destruction were destroyed long ago, this attack was to secure the oil fields and that was it. If this war was truly to make the world a better place then why didn't Bush start in North Korea where they are making weapons of mass destruction as we speak? The answer is simple they have no natural resources to make a profit from. Good job DJV!!!!

 

[ssd]

Typical short-sighted Americans. :nono: We are definitely the "ME" generation. All about us.
This is about changing the face of the Middle East. So that 50% of the world doesn't hate us. About creating a model of democracy in the most unstable part of the world. About securing the future of our kids and their kids.

 

[marine]

6.1% unemployment...

Great!
That means that 93.9% of americans HAVE jobs and are getting by. Why do people always focus on the negatives?

And how many of you out there actually think that everybody in power in the white house and pentagon sat around the bar one night and said "Hey, lets go out and see if we cant lie to the public and get them to let us take over Iraq and get some cheap oil?"

They took the information that they had and made the best decision that they could. You can play he said/she said all day long. It's not going to change anything.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I'll add a bit to the main topic about unemployment. It will get worse before it gets better. You will not only see corporations down size but leave this country entirely. Whether you realize it there is a movement to escape one of businesses and economys biggest drains. Lawsuits. You have over 2/3 of the worlds attorneys in small land of america. Why? Its obvious. Two more lawsuits pending now which will take a chunk out of corporate earnings win or lose. Walmart and IBM.--and don't think it is coincidence that like most of these big cases they both have the venue of court in california the home of the liberal judges and liberal juries. Case in point the recall. three big liberal judges vote unanimously to set it back. Took about a week for real court of 8 dems and 3 rebs to bitch slap them back in their place.--and who is providing free legal assistance against recall,none other than the ACLU, the left of the left. Cal wonders why all business is leaving its state. Not hard to figure.
It has been remarked in this thread about the next best place to live. It would be interesting if someone started a thread where people could discuss taxes-living conditions ect of other coutries to live in, because if things continue this. country will not closely resemble that of 10 or 20 years ago.
For those that read the terrorist story of intended 10 planes planned intially from the east and west coast I hope you didn't overlook his part on the training the terrorist went through-inparticular about the best places and how to fit in without being noticed. It is not coincidence the areas are liberal non profiling advocates. Think about it! When the liberals whine about profiling and having your privacy interferred with in the anti terror campaign, and get popped by terrorist as result,instead of grabbing the 1st attorney and trying to sue everyone under the sun and play right into the terrorist hands on destroying economy,they might want to think whose fault it really is. Oh forgot America is now an "Its not my fault society"
Now speaking of economy I think it is quite remarkable and almost unbelievable where we stand today considering 911 and 2 wars in 2 years. Do I think Bush administration is responsible. Hell no, not one more iota than any pres or adminstration is. It is result of corporate america's ability to adapt--and in many ways war is not so bad on economy---and I think our occupation in middle east will prove to be a HUGE asset in coming years both economically and curtailing terrorism.--but just my opinion.

 

[Iowa Child]

Great post, DTB!!!

 

[marine]

god damn DTB!

I wanna make out with you after reading that!

 

[Blitz]

god damn DTB!

I wanna make out with you after reading that!

You wouldn't need a strap-on with him...

 

[djv]

Not to bad of a debate. Was just alittle bored last few days. Wait till we do Syria.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Hey Marine I see after attacking the Boy Scouts-Pledge of Allegiance(spl) and prayer in school the left is now directing their efforts to banning military recruiters from colleges. They sure have their priorities in order---but then again what can you expect from those whose hero has lied under oath-been impeached-disbarred-and pardoned terrorists-and convicted felons(included 10 most wanted) and profits off it.--as they say"birds of a feather---"
You can make book on it one of their next agendas with be the National Anthem.
They should keep records of these schools and if the shit hits the fan there the military should remind them of their folly and refuse to set foot on those campuses. We can see how effective those protest signs are against bombs.

and about the polls When you have 11 candidates plus the Clintons campaigning and their whole retoric is not offering any solutions but entire campaigns on bashing Bush I think it is only logical that some of it will rub off.
Can someone enlighten me if any of the 13 have offered any opinions on solutions to anything? There are 2 I considered pretty good candidates but the last can't seem to even make up his mind if he was for the war or against it as he has given 3 different versions within 13 days
Correct choices are often not popular but I personally admire those that make those choices and stand by their convictions,right or wrong, and I have no respect for those that say what they think the public wants to hear. I use to have respect for Ted Kennedy until his recent diatribe. Indispicable!!!

Heres where 8 million jobs are--I guess the message here is telling them to slip accross and if not caught in 5 years then your not breaking any laws.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e=7&u=/usatoday/20030924/ts_usatoday/11867626

 

[marine]

Yes DTB, the wonderfully intelligent organization titled

Not in our name

They are organizing a boycot on Oct 7th and calling it "Stop the military recruiter day"

Which is fine and great, let them do what they want - we don't need them in the military anyway. BUT, most colleges and high schools receive some sort of federal funding. Which means military recruiters are allowed onto the grounds to recruit. No different than microsoft paying some bucks to make a recruiting visit.

I use this as a "trump card" if need be. It is a federal law, that they are required to allow us on campus. If they do not, they lose their funding. Period.
Most faculty and staff on educational grounds know that the military is a very good viable option for a lot of students and are happy to have us there to help kids out. 2% of the students do not like it. 99% of those "elite 2%" do not have the grades, intelligence, or suitability for military duty. Kind of ironic eh?

I am just looking forward to Oct 7th because it means I mightfinally get a day off that is not a weekend!

 

[djv]

All those little piss ants should have to serve at least 18 months. It would be good for them. Then they can go hide at a college of there choice or the Nat Guard. Dont need anymore draft dodgers like the last two Presidents. Bill and JR. In fact last month we find out JR still owes Texas Nat Guard a year of duty. Could not even finsh that job. Something about relief to go to school out of state. We Would not have any more of that BS. Out of high school and 18 months. Then your free. Unless we need your ass again. Thats the way it was, and still should me.

 

[acehistr8]

And they can also join th reserves after that. No more hideing in the Nat Guard or some liberial college. Serve first.

Thats originally what you posted. I dont know if its the most arrogant or the most ignorant statement I have ever read, but its one or both. You know how many millions of people in this country are in the Guard protecting your freedom? 75,000 called up to serve during Desert Storm, and I assume similar numbers now in Iraq and other supporting countries/positions. Giving up one weekend a month and two weeks a year to serve this country so that blowhards like you can have the freedom to make statements like this. A few of my friends do it for no other reason than duty to country and desire to give something back when they cant serve full time. You dont consider it service unless you're on the front lines shooting a weapon at someone? Whats your choice, to go to some nazi-esque military state where everyone is forced into the military right out of high school? For only about a thousand reasons this would make our military worse and not better. The beauty of our military lies in its voluntary nature, the blow to morale to say the least would be catastrophic if what you propose were the case.

Your comment is an insult to the millions of good Americans who serve their country in this way.

 

[djv]

Thats a lot BS. Most are still there because they have to fininsh there term. And many stay longer becasue it'e a nice part time money maker. Believe me many do not believe there going to get called. I was there after my reguler tour of duty. Did not have to do it but did for 8 years. I know how they felt. You have 10 maybe 15% that are there almost wanting the next call up. Many because they like it that much should have stayed regular for 20/25 years. And some find that out and do return to regular service. Im sorry but Bill and JR went the way they did to escape.
I still say all of them 18 months is not asking to much if they love there country and want to do this fighting as you say.
I alwasy find it so dam funny how those who have not served and never will. Have the biggest mouths about war and the enemy with in. And just say hell send the troops.
By the way how did by orginal drop off the screen.

 

[acehistr8]

I still say all of them 18 months is not asking to much if they love there country and want to do this fighting as you say.

OK I got confused are you now saying it should only be for people who WANT to join, or you still think it should be straight from high school to boot camp for ALL the "pissants"? And is this males only? What about women? What about gays? Would they be allowed? Minorities? Or straight men only?

How do you deal with the morale issue when 90%+ of your new army doesnt want to be there? I studied this issue in business school and there are hundreds of studies out there detailing how conscripted or mandatory armies are not as effective as volunteer ones - specifically thinking of one called the Economics of Defense. How do you deal with putting people in the line of duty to kill people who are not prepared or dont want to or frankly WONT when it comes down to it? I found this quote particularly poignent:

"The U.S. military is not your daycare center. We're not here to correct mommy and daddy's errors or make your son a better man. We're here to defend the Constitution and we employ whatever tools necessary to ensure the success of our mandate. The values the military attempts to instill in its members are those that have traditionally proven to be successful in providing a disciplined and orderly force capable of success in battle. Any secondary benefits these values provide to society at large are irrelevant.

Rangel and his spiritual brethren on the conservative side care more about their own little agendas than having an effective military. A draft will weaken and diminish the military, because anyone with the least amount of talent, skill or money will be able to legally dodge the draft, leaving only the worst this society has to offer to fill our ranks. Right now, we have the most powerful military force this world has ever seen and it's manned solely by volunteers. That's a powerful idea and it's something Americans can be proud of. An all-volunter force is more motivated, professional and dedicated to mission accomplishment than a bunch of conscripts forced to be there."

I dont like the anti-recruiter peacenik hippies any more than you, but now you want to force them into the army? There are serious safety issues if some units hands lie with a kid who wont take a shot when its needed. Or god forbid worse like tossing grenades in peoples tents to protest the war. Not my business at all but do you have kids? You want them on the front lines, forced into service, and being shot at if they would rather be doing other things, making themselves and this country better in other ways? I have a peacenik hippie cousin who has volunteered and done social work for the past 10 years, making this country more of a better place than a lot of people ever will - so I sure as hell wouldnt want him forced to standing a post he had no interest in defending. You think killing people in battle when they dont want to be there will make kids better kids?

I for one would feel much less safe in the hands of an army whos members didnt want to be there. I couldnt be more supportive and proud of the one we have now, and I see no reason to change it. To me, this just comes off as some old crank sitting on his front porch saying "Yup put em all in a uniform, put their nose in the dirt, smack some sense into em for a couple years, damn whippersnappers these days got no discipline. Back when I was a kid..." Sounds great but has absolutely no practical upside.

Be interested to hear Marines feelings on creating a forced service rule for all high school graduates.

djv, One thing I would agree on perhaps is mandatory volunteer public service, which could be served in a number of ways, including military.

 

[djv]

MR. 8 I have said that before. Im not talking about all being in the Army to be front line folks. Half would not make it the first 8 weeks anyway. I could just see a DI get insome of there faces and they would shit there paints. But we got borders and Ports to guard. We got paper work and computers that have to work. The trucks, jeeps, and Tanks have to run. Not all need to be front line troops. The key is it's all supervised and teaches discipline. But no matter serve first then college and reserve duty. This way everyone can share. And it dont matter if your dada is a congressman or gives extra to the right people at election time. That chit would be all done with.
What's sad is Rummy actully wants to cut the size down another 100000. He said more smart weapons and such can do the job. When Clinton said that. Guys on the right went wild.

 

[marine]

Ace,

You asked for it and now you shall receive it.

Bottom line?

I DON'T want forced enlistments into the military!
The military is not for everyone. The military is a very precise, professional, disciplined unit. With everyone working together for a common purpose and with similar mindsets and motivations. It's just like any other job out there in corporate america, some people fit into certain jobs better than others.

If the government were to force everyone into the military when they turned 18 it would go to shambles. No doubt about it, no questioning it. We would turn into the rock throwing undernourished military of many 3rd world countries. We would regress YEARS in a matter of months one the floodgates were opened up.
You simply cannot have many of these kids today in the military, not with the "it's not MY fault" attitude this country has taken on. Discipline and unit cohesion would fall to all time lows. It doesn't even need explaining.

You think those of in the military right now want to be forced to serve with some of the garbage that is out there right now? sh*t no! We are busy doing impossible tasks with minimal tools for the job the way it is, let alone having to babysit some punks that are in our way just treading water until their time is up.
The military is a very highly trained, effecitve, and elite group right now. We have enough things going on with the people that WANT to be here, let alone pukes who don't.

Not every kid in america needs to join the military and learn the discipline and responsibility that the militia gets. Who is going to serve you fries at McDonald's djv? Who is going to be there with you at the check out counter of the supermarket asking if you want paper or plastic?


I was at a job fair today plugging the Navy and some of our engineering and flight positions... maybe 20 kids out of 5000 stopped by my table. And you know what? I was ecstatic it was that many! 3, maybe 5 of that group will want to pursue it... of those 5, one will be qualified enough to join up and offered a commission. It's that competitive.

And even better... one of the guys was a lil iffy on how well it would look on him after 4 years when he got out to go join corporate america. So I went and changed and put on some khakis and a polo and walked around to some other companies with him and gave the corporate recruiters my resume and told them I just got out... I picked up 4 offers to come to the corporate HQ (Lockheed Martin, Johnson & Johnson, Boeing, and some other company) and interview for positions. The kid with me was dumbstruck at it. He said he did not really realize just how competitive the military is right now. And it is, its not for everyone, just for those that have that drive to do something different with their lives and not go along with the cubicle type job that their peers are striving for.


And djv, you can NOT instill discipline into someone that does not want to learn it.
You can instill fear, but not discipline.