Marine I don't worry to much about standards coming down a little. I believe we have enough good people in service that can train them and help teach them. And to bring them up above standards. I worry more about letting anyone over 39/40 in. Their best reflex days and strength days are past around age 30. Unless they plan on using them for desk jobs.
a beautiful photo....in honor of dtb,neverteasit and the other vets on the board...
- Thread starter gardenweasel
- Start date
All of this would still seem to add up to the conclusion that we never had the numbers to be spread across the globe and then try and maintain/rebuild Iraq - even before the cuts of the 80's and 90's.
Shouldn't our leadership run the numbers on these kinds of things before starting wars? Our servicemen deserve better than the 'wishful thinking' strategies of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al.
Yes, I don't doubt that there are incredible things going on in Iraq. We sort of assumed that responsibility. Do you know how much we are bringing to the table that wasn't already there? Have we built more things than we blew up? Have we saved more lives than we killed? ....I'm not being a smartass - I'm actually seriously asking these questions.
Another question - Can you see any possibility of us engaging in another war at this point? Would you say we are completely hamstrung? Where could we find another 150,000 if we need them?
i think u are missing my point here. i would assume u think the military is too far stretched. what i was trying to show is how fast the numbers become used up and why the national gaurd is used. if i am not mistaken i believe this is what the top brass years ago had forseen all forces to be as one. regardless of gaurd or reserve or active. thus the downsize aspect of it. it is a very complex system that is really hard to explain and undertsand unless u live it or have been involved in it.
and actually the army is in the process of expanding. we have the soldiers to handle anything thrown at us currently but at the same time u never give your enemies a single glimpes of hope or the appearance of being unable to commit. and i really dont think anyone actually could have forseen what has taken place in Iraq. should they have taken a worse case scenario in the picture. u bet. could we engage in another war if necessary i wouldnt see a problem with that. i think many here fail to realize just how powerful our military actually is. it is truly incredible. u have to seperate two factions here. war is one thing, occupying and rebuilding a country is another. the question should be could we handle another Iraq. And with that I would say no.
But with war, troops are not actually commited with todays battlefield scenarios. we try to take the air first then we pound the ground without using foot soldiers. using technology, which ours is so far superior than any other countries is unreal. what we have at our disposal today is beyond belief.
after the end of the cold war politicians felt it necessary to downsize the military. it was a huge mistake as we have seen today. but i wouldnt loose sleep over it. we could still take out whoever we want when we want. without the use of nukes. peace is always the best process. nothing good comes from war i would say. many are lost on both sides. after all we are still human beings regardless of beliefs, hatred, race or origin.
and actually the army is in the process of expanding. we have the soldiers to handle anything thrown at us currently but at the same time u never give your enemies a single glimpes of hope or the appearance of being unable to commit. and i really dont think anyone actually could have forseen what has taken place in Iraq. should they have taken a worse case scenario in the picture. u bet. could we engage in another war if necessary i wouldnt see a problem with that. i think many here fail to realize just how powerful our military actually is. it is truly incredible. u have to seperate two factions here. war is one thing, occupying and rebuilding a country is another. the question should be could we handle another Iraq. And with that I would say no.
But with war, troops are not actually commited with todays battlefield scenarios. we try to take the air first then we pound the ground without using foot soldiers. using technology, which ours is so far superior than any other countries is unreal. what we have at our disposal today is beyond belief.
after the end of the cold war politicians felt it necessary to downsize the military. it was a huge mistake as we have seen today. but i wouldnt loose sleep over it. we could still take out whoever we want when we want. without the use of nukes. peace is always the best process. nothing good comes from war i would say. many are lost on both sides. after all we are still human beings regardless of beliefs, hatred, race or origin.
Kosar and Wesley Clark did.
Thank you for taking time to answer my questions.
Yes, I realize we could "take someone out" at anytime if we need to. But it seems as though we underestimate the realities and subtleties of actually conquering an enemy. It took us a week to topple Saddam's regime, but we probably will never really win Iraq. ....or so it seems.
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I hear this from vets - regardless of politics. I don't hear it from chickenhawk phony patriot blowhards like Hannity, Savage, Limbaugh, Robertson, etc. I wish the voice of vets was heard more easily than those assclowns.
i just seen another part of your post i didn't answer. i don't think you are a smart ass i am trying to answer everything the best i can. I truly believe that many have been so whitewashed by all the negative that we seem to close our eyes to the positive. just leave the political aspect out since it is actually irrelevant now. we are commited and the problem solvers should be coming up to a solution to get iraq restructured, a adequate military force in place, a running gov that actually in functional and getting our troops home. i have said all along we are there 10 years at least. and when i left i seen nothing to change my mind.
about what have we brung to the table as far as rebuilding iraq. first off iraq's infrastructure was horrendous to say the least. Saddam had neglected his country severly. everything u can imagine being broke is broke. us blowing up stuff was not the only factor here. many had no running water before the war. hospital were outdated, sewer lines, plumbing, electrical had all been so neglected that most has needed replaced. i actually think this was never forseen either. of course i really don't see how it could have been, but i am sure we could have known somewhat. it really is a mess. but it is getting better day by day.
but here is were the progress deteriates. we build a water treatment facility then the insurgents try to blow it up. we give running water to towns and the insurgents destroy it. its a never ending cycle. the country takes 2 steps forward then 1 step back. the hope is one day that this will end. but as we have seen it hasn't. i don't have the answers. i know the one answer though is sadly enough we cannot pull out. we are too commited and the country would become total anarchy. many in the region are hoping we do. they all want a piece of iraq. for obvious reasons.
about what have we brung to the table as far as rebuilding iraq. first off iraq's infrastructure was horrendous to say the least. Saddam had neglected his country severly. everything u can imagine being broke is broke. us blowing up stuff was not the only factor here. many had no running water before the war. hospital were outdated, sewer lines, plumbing, electrical had all been so neglected that most has needed replaced. i actually think this was never forseen either. of course i really don't see how it could have been, but i am sure we could have known somewhat. it really is a mess. but it is getting better day by day.
but here is were the progress deteriates. we build a water treatment facility then the insurgents try to blow it up. we give running water to towns and the insurgents destroy it. its a never ending cycle. the country takes 2 steps forward then 1 step back. the hope is one day that this will end. but as we have seen it hasn't. i don't have the answers. i know the one answer though is sadly enough we cannot pull out. we are too commited and the country would become total anarchy. many in the region are hoping we do. they all want a piece of iraq. for obvious reasons.
Do you think that if we figured out a way to double our presence it would help? It seems like we must either step up in greater numbers and completely destroy the insurgency or deal with this bad cycle possibly forever. You say there is some progress - so do you think the current numbers would get it done eventually?
Unfortunately for Iraq, this war is a sideshow for most America. I'm pretty sure the next president will have to promise an almost complete withdrawl in order to get elected.
I hope and pray it gets better quickly over the next 2 years, because that's probably the deadline.
Unfortunately for Iraq, this war is a sideshow for most America. I'm pretty sure the next president will have to promise an almost complete withdrawl in order to get elected.
I hope and pray it gets better quickly over the next 2 years, because that's probably the deadline.
well many say it because when u are faced with the facts of actually having to kill someone it is not so easy for some to do. but u do it because if u don't u will be killed. many a men can talk how big and bad they are. but i seen grown men reduced to shambles facing this task. it wasn't often but it does occur. young men are faced with critical decisions in a split second.
it is not so easy to be sitting next to man for breakfast then going out 8 hours later and picking up pieces of him the size of a quarter scattered over 200yard area.
I dont' know if troops is the answer. more is always better but at the same time comes greater losses. if syria and neighboring countries would help in the cause it would do tremendous in helping. but these countries could care less they want us to fail and iraq to become open season. i wish it was as simple as it seems in some eyes but is far from it.
The next president may promise to withdraw but he will be blowing smoke up every americans ass. it isnt gonna happen. if it does we will be right back in again along with everyone else. iraq would become a free for all.
i could go on for hours as to why. all i can say if we did it would be a grave mistake for the whole world, the reprecussions from it would be enormous. i just hope commen sense is used for once instead of political gains. i could be wrong but i hope not. believe me i want to see all my fellow soldiers come home but i just don't see it.
I disagree Smurph--I think anyone campaighning on immediate withdrawel has 0 chance of getting elected.
You haven't seen Hiliary jumping to that side of fence--I think she is savvy enough to know a liberal can not get elected.
While I put little faith in polls--but for those that were quoting them previously you might look at most recent--
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Hard to find I know as the liberal bloggers are at it again--i did search for (poll americans Iraq gallup usa today) and it pulls up old polls that were negative 1st rather than most recent polls--those bloggers are a busy crew
You haven't seen Hiliary jumping to that side of fence--I think she is savvy enough to know a liberal can not get elected.
While I put little faith in polls--but for those that were quoting them previously you might look at most recent--
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Hard to find I know as the liberal bloggers are at it again--i did search for (poll americans Iraq gallup usa today) and it pulls up old polls that were negative 1st rather than most recent polls--those bloggers are a busy crew
I hope your right on all counts. But considering the unpopularity of the war at this point, I have a hard time imagining the next president won't be forced to bring nearly everyone home.
Things is - here at home - we haven't been asked to sacrifice anything. The administration basically said this is a cakewalk, everything's fine, keep driving your SUV's, buy another SUV, nothing to worry about. Once the WMD doubts reached a head, well then people also got the feeling that the war was never necessary.
So if the war wasn't necessary, we shouldn't sacrifice anything, then why should we lose one more American life or limb, and spend 1 more dollar on this venture?
You know the reality, 99% of us don't. The voting masses don't and that's who will matter most in 2 years. ....Not to mention the whole budget part of this. The spending obviously can't go on forever - even if it should.
Things is - here at home - we haven't been asked to sacrifice anything. The administration basically said this is a cakewalk, everything's fine, keep driving your SUV's, buy another SUV, nothing to worry about. Once the WMD doubts reached a head, well then people also got the feeling that the war was never necessary.
So if the war wasn't necessary, we shouldn't sacrifice anything, then why should we lose one more American life or limb, and spend 1 more dollar on this venture?
You know the reality, 99% of us don't. The voting masses don't and that's who will matter most in 2 years. ....Not to mention the whole budget part of this. The spending obviously can't go on forever - even if it should.
Dropping down our service from 3.5 million 20 years ago to less then 2 million now. That makes it more difficult to just jump and start another invasion. Air power can soften them up. But you can not finish the job with out boots on the ground. So boots have to come from some place. You can tell it's a problem. Bush was talking much strongly vs N Korea and Iran just two years ago. You don't here him say much about N Korea any more. Now has said about 20 times Iran Is in Europe's corner. So his generals are telling him something. Believe we can read between the lines. Two things stand out Iraq continues to be problem. And Afghanistan is now back in picture as hot spot. Im sure he felt both would be a heck of a lot better after 5 years. And really no plan even with 275000 so called Iraq troops trained for us to start standing down. I guess they feel they need more training. Something just does not jive here.
Sep 21, 6:46 PM EDT
Army Ends Best Recruit Year Since 1997
By ROBERT BURNS
AP Military Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Army is ending its best recruiting year since 1997 and expecting similar success in 2007, despite the weight of grim war news from Iraq, Army Secretary Francis Harvey said Thursday.
In an Associated Press interview, Harvey said the Army will enlist its 80,000th soldier on Friday, reaching its goal for the year with eight days to spare. That is a considerable turnaround from last year when the Army missed its target for the first time since 1999 and by the widest margin in more than two decades.
Army Ends Best Recruit Year Since 1997
By ROBERT BURNS
AP Military Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Army is ending its best recruiting year since 1997 and expecting similar success in 2007, despite the weight of grim war news from Iraq, Army Secretary Francis Harvey said Thursday.
In an Associated Press interview, Harvey said the Army will enlist its 80,000th soldier on Friday, reaching its goal for the year with eight days to spare. That is a considerable turnaround from last year when the Army missed its target for the first time since 1999 and by the widest margin in more than two decades.
DTB, is 80,000 actually the highest number since 1997 or did they just change the "target" to a number they can achieve?
We'll see where Iraq is in 2 years. We've abandoned places before, I wouldn't put it past us to abandon another. I hope we don't, but those decisions are more polkitical than anything else. ...And of course that money factor tends to play a role. We can't continue spending $100 billion a year forver.
We'll see where Iraq is in 2 years. We've abandoned places before, I wouldn't put it past us to abandon another. I hope we don't, but those decisions are more polkitical than anything else. ...And of course that money factor tends to play a role. We can't continue spending $100 billion a year forver.
Why would you build bases over there and then withdraw? Face it guys we are there forever. We are buiding a huge base right off of the tigris river. Why would we be building these if we were gonna leave? This is one of the biggest reasons why we are gonna get hit again. We just can't stay out of these peoples business.
Please divulge were this HUGE base and name of it, is supposedly being built. Right off the Tigris is broad. What Town? And were u got this info from?
lard jaysus....i had no idea that a fricking picture would cause such a shitstorm....
first off...apologies to marine for not mentioning him at the top of the thread along with teaseit and dtb........
an unforgivable omission...my bad...corrected as soon as i`m through....
smurph...my only representation in the thread was regarding the picture....everyone can make their own value judgement on the other content contained in that site....
spongy...it was a picture....harmless...i`m a little shocked that it offended even your sensibilities that someone would give some props to our brave men.....those that are responsible for everything we have and hold dear...without them,it`s all crap...
last time i checked,our soldiers don`t make policy...they just do the wet work...
you (and smurph...how disappointing) had to politicize it...
you guys need stop acting like five year olds that just dropped their corndogs in the dirt at the county fair......
first off...apologies to marine for not mentioning him at the top of the thread along with teaseit and dtb........
an unforgivable omission...my bad...corrected as soon as i`m through....
smurph...my only representation in the thread was regarding the picture....everyone can make their own value judgement on the other content contained in that site....
spongy...it was a picture....harmless...i`m a little shocked that it offended even your sensibilities that someone would give some props to our brave men.....those that are responsible for everything we have and hold dear...without them,it`s all crap...
last time i checked,our soldiers don`t make policy...they just do the wet work...
you (and smurph...how disappointing) had to politicize it...
you guys need stop acting like five year olds that just dropped their corndogs in the dirt at the county fair......
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weasal i dont think i even commented about the picture. you know how it works. threads change in midstream. Once again i will state i have the utmost respect for our military and yes your right they don't set policies. I just think they are getting dick over in Iraq and someone needs for it to be said. honeslty a 21 yearold is not the greatest person to talk to about this war. They just go fight it. I know, i talk to them. Half of them don't even know who the vice president is. One time richard Clarke was on Tv and i asked a guy who just came back what he thought of what Richard Clarke said and he didn't know who richard Clarke was. All he said iwas that he wishes he could get the hell out of Iraq. He was being sent over again.
