A message from a prof at my alma mater

Duff Miver

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?I have seen the future, and it works,? journalist Lincoln Steffens famously said of his 1919 visit to Bolshevik Russia. Guided by his economic faith, Steffens saw the future as he wanted it to be, not as it would be.

What excuse do we have when we follow people who, guided by a different economic faith, see the past as they want it to have been, not as it was? Today, under the influence of leaders blinded to facts by certain faith, we are careening toward a repetition of mistakes that led to catastrophe.

A CNN poll conducted in June found that almost half of Americans now think that another Great Depression is ?very likely? or ?somewhat likely? to occur within the next 12 months.

There is a genuine danger that the already weak economy could turn into a second coming of the hard times of the 1930s. The focus of many politicians today on cutting spending and avoiding tax increases on the wealthy is based on a misunderstanding of what led to and extended the Great Depression ? and it is setting us up for a new collapse.

Most people realize that a failure to raise the debt ceiling could be catastrophic. But the drastic cuts in federal spending that some Republicans are demanding in exchange for an increase in the debt ceiling would be a repeat of the mistakes that prevented a full recovery in the 1930s and then caused a secondary collapse in 1937.

With the economy in a precarious position, slashing spending, concentrating ever more wealth and income at the top, and blocking effective regulation is a prescription for disaster.

In fact, the first part of this prescription is very similar to one written by Dr. New Deal himself. Fearful of massive budget deficits, President Franklin Roosevelt cut back on spending as soon as his 1936 re-election was secured, plunging the economy into a renewed free fall that introduced the word ?recession? into our lexicon so as to avoid calling the collapse a renewed depression.

Yet that is the course upon which a unified Republican Party is insisting. For their part, President Barack Obama and many Democrats have ceded the battlefield and are just trying to reduce the number of casualties.

Conservatives appear to be united behind a set of beliefs that are dangerously wrong. Theirs is a faith-based economics that contrasts with fact-based economics; their god is named the Market. Their economics is as immune to facts as its opposite, Marxism. Call it Marketism. A devout Marketist believes that the Market is always right and any government intervention is, well, sinful.

For more than two generations, the Great Depression discredited this religion. But beginning around 1980, with the election of Ronald Reagan, the Marketists staged a revival.

One of my students brilliantly, if accidentally, captured the essence of this economic fundamentalism in a journal entry a few years ago: ?During his presidency, Reagan implemented sloppy-side economics.? It is that sloppy-side economics that conservatives have been pushing ever since, and the more it fails, the harder they push it.

During the Great Depression, Roosevelt called for ?bold, persistent experimentation? and said: ?It is common sense to take a method and try it; if it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.?

But the position of faithful Marketists, then and now, is this: Take their method and try it. If it fails, deny its failure and try it again, and again, and again. But above all, keep trying the same thing.

Since the beginning of the Obama administration, Republicans have been working unstintingly to misread the history of the Depression and implement policies similar to those that led to the collapses of 1929 and 2008. ?One of the good things about reading history is you learn a good deal,? Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., declared early in 2009. ?And we know for sure that the big spending programs of the New Deal did not work. In 1940, unemployment was still 15 percent. And it?s widely agreed among economists that what got us out of the doldrums that we were in during the Depression was the beginning of World War II.?

Well, yes ? but that fact demonstrates just the opposite of what Marketist fundamentalists argue.

It is plain that the reason the New Deal failed to end the Depression is not that Roosevelt and Congress overspent, but that they underspent. The New Deal was not too reckless in its spending; it was too cautious. The war ended the Depression precisely because it obliged Roosevelt and Congress to spend greater and greater amounts without worrying about where the money was coming from.

The basic reason that the Obama administration has not yet ended the economic disaster it inherited is the same reason that prevented the New Deal from ending the Depression FDR inherited: It hasn?t spent enough. The 2009 stimulus staved off a second Great Depression, but it should have been much larger to produce a genuine recovery. Subsequently, even with majorities in both houses, the Democrats let the GOP define the argument and failed to force through needed programs to get the economy back on its feet.

It has been the alleged ?socialism? of the New Deal that has prevented another Depression for seven decades. While a market-based economy is clearly the best system, it carries serious risks. Government intervention minimizes those risks for businesses and for people ? just a spoonful of ?socialism? helps the capitalism go up.

?History doesn?t repeat itself, but it rhymes,? Mark Twain is said to have remarked. To the extent that our current history sounds like the 1930s, it is because of the lack of sense on the part of politicians. We know better than to slash spending and allow the rich to become even richer in a weak economy, but we?re set on doing it anyway.

If there is a new Great Depression, it won?t be without rhyme, but it will be without reason.

Robert S. McElvaine, a professor of history at Millsaps College, is the author of ?The Great Depression: America, 1929-1941.? This column first appeared in The Washington Post.
 

ssd

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Yep.

Massive public debt has been SO HELPFUL in pulling the US economy out of this quagmire.


Little know fact. There was a depression in 1921. The federal gov't did NOTHING and amazingly enough, the economy recovered on it's own.


Bernanke is a student of the Great Depression and is running the playbook verbatim.

Govt interference will lengthen and deepen the recession / depression or whatever you want to call it.

The only government spending that contributed to ending the Great Depression was military spending for WWII.


The entire article that you posted is Keynesian BS and junk.
 

ssd

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Yes. I have a degree in common sense. If government spending spurred the economy, then ours should roaring right now.

And, it is not.


The problem with most people is that just because a guy has a bunch of letters after his name, to them, it means he is smart and knows what he is doing.

Take a look at how many Nobel Prize winners in Mathematics have blown up hedge funds - starting with Long-term Capital.

Just because you are book smart does not mean you should be making policy.

I'd prefer that Ben Bernanke actually had some real work experience rather than being a pure academic. I have said it before - these guys would bankrupt a lemonade stand.

Unfortunately for Ben, things work differently outside the class room.

As far as the Depression debate - The US also wasn't looking at a $14T deficit, was a crediTOR nation and had a manufacturing base among other things.
 

Duff Miver

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Yes. I have a degree in common sense.


just because a guy has a bunch of letters after his name it means he knows what he is doing.

Your degree - BS, I assume.

Right, those letters after a name, indicative of education, knowledge, proficiency, etc, mean nothing. :mj07: :mj07:

I prefer those with letters when I seek expertise: MD for health issues, DDS for dental, JD for law, PE for engineering, and, yes, even the dreaded PhD for intellectual proficiency.

Fiscal and economic expertise? Which shall I choose, a PhD, Nobel winner, or the kid at McDonalds?

Tossup, eh?
 
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gardenweasel

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from someone productive in society...a businessman that provides potentially thosands of jobs and is a huge part of a states` economy...and he`s not a republican...a staunch harry reid supporter and contributor......

not some pseudo-intellectual that`s probably never done an honest day`s work in his entire life outside of academia...theorizing in some f-cking small college dormitory....

steve wynn:

""And I?m saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems, that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration. And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America.

You bet and until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it?s not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President. And a lot of people don?t want to say that. They?ll say, God, don?t be attacking Obama. Well, this is Obama?s deal and it?s Obama that?s responsible for this fear in America.


The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don?t invest, their holding too much money. We haven?t heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody?s afraid of the government and there?s no need soft peddling it, it?s the truth. It is the truth. And that?s true of Democratic businessman and Republican businessman, and I am a Democratic businessman and I support Harry Reid. I support Democrats and Republicans. And I?m telling you that the business community in this company is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he?s gone, everybody?s going to be sitting on their thumbs.""



he can tax until the cows come home....but nothing changes in this country...no jobs...no wealth creation...no entrepreneurship...just stagnation or worse...until this moran gets booted out of the whitehouse....

as we see,some democratic business people are finally smelling the coffee and speaking up.....
 
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Duff Miver

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from someone productive in society...a businessman that provides potentially thosands of jobs and is a huge part of a states` economy...and he`s not a republican.....

You're talking about Bill Gates? Make that tens of thousands of real (not potential) jobs, and a substantial part of the national economy....and products of real value....no, wait....I see....you're talking about a guy who runs a gambling casino....

Now that's a valuable contribution, a business which creates nothing at all beyond momentary pleasure and empty pockets for it's customers. An "honest day's work"? In most of the USA that sort of work will get him prison time.. A strong supporter of Harry Reid? Of course he is. Hell, he'd be a strong supporter of Osama BinLaden if Osama were a US Senator from Nevada.

Next you'll be promoting hookers as business models. Their business is honest in a few places too. And they create more "real value" than Wynn.

Steve Wynn? LMAO!

Al Capone created jobs too. :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07:
 
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Duff Miver

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until this moran gets booted out of the whitehouse....

.

Whoops! you outed yourself weasel -

file008.jpg
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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This place is getting embarrassing. I can't believe my vote counts the same as some of you. :facepalm:

Then why don't you all move to sight where their are no tax payors-where you don't have to put up with ole whitey.

Find a site with a base of like thinkers and values.

Ought to be lots of sites out there for like minded individuals of you and Muffy who want to raise taxes on productive and compensate the parasites. Look for a district or precinct with 75% Dem voting record--you'll find a home and muffy won't have to fight that $4 gas in quest for those family traditions. :)
 

StevieD

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Steve Wynn? The guy who ruined Vegas? I was in the Wynn, nothing but empty, expensive, stores. LOL!
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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--but I have the satisfaction of knowing your groveling for that tit- eating meals on wheels--and they have to call ghost busters to make deliveries at your apartment :lol:
 
P

PRO190

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Your degree - BS, I assume.

Right, those letters after a name, indicative of education, knowledge, proficiency, etc, mean nothing. :mj07: :mj07:

I prefer those with letters when I seek expertise: MD for health issues, DDS for dental, JD for law, PE for engineering, and, yes, even the dreaded PhD for intellectual proficiency.

Fiscal and economic expertise? Which shall I choose, a PhD, Nobel winner, or the kid at McDonalds?

Tossup, eh?


Yep that PhD in Womens Studies sure screams Intellectual Prowess.. :142smilie

Nobel Prize winners :scared .. like Gore and Obama :mj07: I'll take the Kid at McDs :0074
 

ssd

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Muff:
All you can do is throw insults and copy and paste.

Look up how many PhD's / Nobel Laureates have blown up hedge funds?

Why is this important? because in their theoretical vacuum, everything works exactly as they have controlled it. But put it in the real world, where they do not set the controls, and all of a sudden, things go ape shit.

Same for all the academics at the FED and the Treasury and the IMF, etc.

No REAL WORLD KNOWLEDGE.


You can deny it all you want. As I said before - if government spending was the end all, be all - then the US Economy would be roaring right now.

Government produces NOTHING. It is a parasite on the economy, being paid by TAX DOLLARS whereas jobs in the private sector are paid for out of PROFIT.
 

Duff Miver

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Muff:
All you can do is throw insults and copy and paste.

Look up how many PhD's / Nobel Laureates have blown up hedge funds?

Why is this important? because in their theoretical vacuum, everything works exactly as they have controlled it. But put it in the real world, where they do not set the controls, and all of a sudden, things go ape shit.

Same for all the academics at the FED and the Treasury and the IMF, etc.

No REAL WORLD KNOWLEDGE.


You can deny it all you want. As I said before - if government spending was the end all, be all - then the US Economy would be roaring right now.

Government produces NOTHING. It is a parasite on the economy, being paid by TAX DOLLARS whereas jobs in the private sector are paid for out of PROFIT.

Cut and paste? Yep, that's right. You see, I like to post facts to support my opinions.

You, however, rarely know any facts, so you rant on and on about some sort of faith-based voodoo.

Government is the end-all, be-all? Pardon me, when did I ever say that? I didn't; you are ranting about something you made up yourself.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly capable of saying what I mean without your intentional misinterpretation.

Government produces nothing? 'scuse me while I have a good laugh....hahahahaha

Government provides laws and enforcement thereof - or do you prefer a lawless society?

Government provides national defense - or do you prefer no organized defense?

Government provides universal education, or do prefer a nation of morons?

Government provides research in medicine and healthcare, or do you want to self medicate with spider webs and tree bark?

Government provides assistance to those in need, -or do you prefer to starve if you get sick?

Government protects us from each other, -or do you prefer to guard your cabbage patch 24/7 yourself?

Yes, we need private industry, but that could never exist without a central government. Just ask the Native Americans.

Go pick your veggies. Did that insult you? Too bad. Wipe your nose and go tend your veggies, Mr. Entrepreneur.
 
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ssd

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Hey, Muff:

Those are services, not products.

I can copy and paste a definition if you need me to.


Read the Constitution. It LIMITS the powers of the federal government for a reason.


So we don't end up where we are now.

And I said, government spending , not government, is the end all , be all for you....that's essentially what your prof said, no?
That good ole Uncle Sam just hasn't gone into debt ENOUGH to pull us out the recession and could have shortened the Depression had they just spent more?

Sticks and stones, Muff. Say whatever you want.
As for facts - that is laughable. look at the situation the world is in - crumbling under immense, unpayable debt and look at the majority of the policies that have gotten the world to this point and you want to argue FACTS?

Whatever.....go feed a few homeless Parisians and call it charity and go to bed feeling good about yourself. Guess what? When you leave, they'll be hungry again.
 

Duff Miver

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Why nit-pick about a definition about service/product? They're the same thing.

Does my capitalist dentist produce a service or a product? Does a restaurant produce a service or a product?

Read the Constitution. It LIMITS the powers of the federal government for a reason.


So we don't end up where we are now


Actually I have read the Constitution - many times. Have you? If so, then explain your statement. In what way is the Constitution being violated? You can cite Supreme Court decisions to back your personal interpretation , you being a non-lawyer.

Unpayable debt? You need to read some history. We have paid down larger (as a % of GDP) debts before.

Please do not respond any more unless and until you have facts to support your opinions.

Yep, I'll be in France again this Fall. And I'll spend my money where, when and how I like. I'd rather give money to a street bum than a Murdock any day. Don't need your permission.

Don't need your factless opinions either.
 
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