a quick poll--need some input

pt1gard

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 7, 2002
7,377
3
0
seattle
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XuUFAJ5Rrec

more witnesses, people who were there, yanno? telling the truth and the 9-11 commsision ignoring it ...

of course the fish swallow the neocon bait and will deny anyone heard explosions or that steel was SHOT forth like spears or that the hero william rodriguez saw more than anyone and knows the truth and the gov. goes deaf ... sounds like the meatheeads migrating back after reading the comical PM article, which has been a laughing stock to anyone that isnt a scarecrow
 

pt1gard

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 7, 2002
7,377
3
0
seattle
more Bush lies, a huge one caught

more Bush lies, a huge one caught

The secret Downing Street memo

SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY



DAVID MANNING
From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:

(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).

(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.

The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:

(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.

(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.

(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.



The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.

John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.

The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:

(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.

(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.

(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.



(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.

He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.

(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.

(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.

(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)



MATTHEW RYCROFT

(Rycroft was a Downing Street foreign policy aide)
 

pt1gard

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 7, 2002
7,377
3
0
seattle
surprising, Bush admin. lying

surprising, Bush admin. lying

Proof Bush Fixed The Facts
Ray McGovern
May 04, 2005


Ray McGovern served 27 years as a CIA analyst and is now on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. He works for Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour.

"Intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."

Never in our wildest dreams did we think we would see those words in black and white?and beneath a SECRET stamp, no less. For three years now, we in Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) have been saying that the CIA and its British counterpart, MI-6, were ordered by their countries' leaders to "fix facts" to "justify" an unprovoked war on Iraq. More often than not, we have been greeted with stares of incredulity.

It has been a hard learning?that folks tend to believe what they want to believe. As long as our evidence, however abundant and persuasive, remained circumstantial, it could not compel belief. It simply is much easier on the psyche to assent to the White House spin machine blaming the Iraq fiasco on bad intelligence than to entertain the notion that we were sold a bill of goods.

Well, you can forget circumstantial. Thanks to an unauthorized disclosure by a courageous whistleblower, the evidence now leaps from official documents?this time authentic, not forged. Whether prompted by the open appeal of the international Truth-Telling Coalition or not, some brave soul has made the most explosive "patriotic leak" of the war by giving London's Sunday Times the official minutes of a briefing by Richard Dearlove, then head of Britain's CIA equivalent, MI-6. Fresh back in London from consultations in Washington, Dearlove briefed Prime Minister Blair and his top national security officials on July 23, 2002, on the Bush administration's plans to make war on Iraq.

Blair does not dispute the authenticity of the document, which immortalizes a discussion that is chillingly amoral. Apparently no one felt free to ask the obvious questions. Or, worse still, the obvious questions did not occur.

Juggernaut Before The Horse

In emotionless English, Dearlove tells Blair and the others that President Bush has decided to remove Saddam Hussein by launching a war that is to be "justified by the conjunction of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction." Period. What about the intelligence? Dearlove adds matter-of-factly, "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."

At this point, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw confirms that Bush has decided on war, but notes that stitching together justification would be a challenge, since "the case was thin." Straw noted that Saddam was not threatening his neighbors and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran.

In the following months, "the case" would be buttressed by a well-honed U.S.-U.K. intelligence-turned-propaganda-machine. The argument would be made "solid" enough to win endorsement from Congress and Parliament by conjuring up:

Aluminum artillery tubes misdiagnosed as nuclear related;
Forgeries alleging Iraqi attempts to obtain uranium in Africa;
Tall tales from a drunken defector about mobile biological weapons laboratories;
Bogus warnings that Iraqi forces could fire WMD-tipped missiles within 45 minutes of an order to do so;
Dodgy dossiers fabricated in London; and
A U.S. National Intelligence Estimate thrown in for good measure.
All this, as Dearlove notes dryly, despite the fact that "there was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action." Another nugget from Dearlove's briefing is his bloodless comment that one of the U.S. military options under discussion involved "a continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli"?the clear implication being that planners of the air campaign would also see to it that an appropriate casus belli was orchestrated.

The discussion at 10 Downing St. on July 23, 2002 calls to mind the first meeting of George W. Bush's National Security Council (NSC) on Jan. 30, 2001, at which the president made it clear that toppling Saddam Hussein sat atop his to-do list, according to then-Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neil, who was there. O'Neil was taken aback that there was no discussion of why it was necessary to "take out" Saddam. Rather, after CIA Director George Tenet showed a grainy photo of a building in Iraq that he said might be involved in producing chemical or biological agents, the discussion proceeded immediately to which Iraqi targets might be best to bomb. Again, neither O'Neil nor the other participants asked the obvious questions. Another NSC meeting two days later included planning for dividing up Iraq's oil wealth.

Obedience School

As for the briefing of Blair, the minutes provide further grist for those who describe the U.K. prime minister as Bush's "poodle." The tone of the conversation bespeaks a foregone conclusion that Blair will wag his tail cheerfully and obey the learned commands. At one point he ventures the thought that, "If the political context were right, people would support regime change." This, after Attorney General Peter Goldsmith has already warned that the desire for regime change "was not a legal base for military action,"?a point Goldsmith made again just 12 days before the attack on Iraq until he was persuaded by a phalanx of Bush administration lawyers to change his mind 10 days later.

The meeting concludes with a directive to "work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action."

I cannot quite fathom why I find the account of this meeting so jarring. Surely it is what one might expect, given all else we know. Yet seeing it in bloodless black and white somehow gives it more impact. And the implications are no less jarring.

One of Dearlove's primary interlocutors in Washington was his American counterpart, CIA director George Tenet. (And there is no closer relationship between two intelligence services than the privileged one between the CIA and MI-6.) Tenet, of course, knew at least as much as Dearlove, but nonetheless played the role of accomplice in serving up to Bush the kind of "slam-dunk intelligence" that he knew would be welcome. If there is one unpardonable sin in intelligence work, it is that kind of politicization. But Tenet decided to be a "team player" and set the tone.

Politicization: Big Time

Actually, politicization is far too mild a word for what happened. The intelligence was not simply mistaken; it was manufactured, with the president of the United States awarding foreman George Tenet the Medal of Freedom for his role in helping supervise the deceit. The British documents make clear that this was not a mere case of "leaning forward" in analyzing the intelligence, but rather mass deception?an order of magnitude more serious. No other conclusion is now possible.

Small wonder, then, to learn from CIA insiders like former case officer Lindsay Moran that Tenet's malleable managers told their minions, "Let's face it. The president wants us to go to war, and our job is to give him a reason to do it."

Small wonder that, when the only U.S. analyst who met with the alcoholic Iraqi defector appropriately codenamed "Curveball" raised strong doubt about Curveball's reliability before then-Secretary of State Colin Powell used the fabrication about "mobile biological weapons trailers" before the United Nations, the analyst got this e-mail reply from his CIA supervisor:

"Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say, and the powers that be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about."

When Tenet's successor, Porter Goss, took over as director late last year, he immediately wrote a memo to all employees explaining the "rules of the road"?first and foremost, "We support the administration and its policies." So much for objective intelligence insulated from policy pressure.

Tenet and Goss, creatures of the intensely politicized environment of Congress, brought with them a radically new ethos?one much more akin to that of Blair's courtiers than to that of earlier CIA directors who had the courage to speak truth to power.

Seldom does one have documentary evidence that intelligence chiefs chose to cooperate in both fabricating and "sexing up" (as the British press puts it) intelligence to justify a prior decision for war. There is no word to describe the reaction of honest intelligence professionals to the corruption of our profession on a matter of such consequence. "Outrage" does not come close.

Hope In Unauthorized Disclosures

Those of us who care about unprovoked wars owe the patriot who gave this latest British government document to The Sunday Times a debt of gratitude. Unauthorized disclosures are gathering steam. They need to increase quickly on this side of the Atlantic as well?the more so, inasmuch as Congress-controlled by the president's party-cannot be counted on to discharge its constitutional prerogative for oversight.

In its formal appeal of Sept. 9, 2004 to current U.S. government officials, the Truth-Telling Coalition said this:

We know how misplaced loyalty to bosses, agencies, and careers can obscure the higher allegiance all government officials owe the Constitution, the sovereign public, and the young men and women put in harm's way. We urge you to act on those higher loyalties...Truth-telling is a patriotic and effective way to serve the nation. The time for speaking out is now.

If persons with access to wrongly concealed facts and analyses bring them to light, the chances become less that a president could launch another unprovoked war?against, say, Iran.
 

marine

poker brat
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
3,867
73
48
50
Fort Worth, TX
This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.


and here it is....
sounds a lot like the emails I get telling me I won the london UK Lottery for 5 gabillion pounds.
SteelTemp-vs-Yield.gif
 

pt1gard

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 7, 2002
7,377
3
0
seattle
obviously the brain dead are back posting pictures bc they have no facts or gray matter ... not that it needs to be said, but block the knuckleheads unless you are one of the clowns with painted faces, and concentrate on content not characters ... it makes for a cleaner thread :00hour
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
thanx kosar

so youre down with the kean commission, lets just get that down on the blotter?

nice try, but you obviously know nothing in depth on the topic and parrot official lies ... but thats ok, i guess i have my toy, meaning facts, and you say they found planes at the pentagon and shanksville? is that what you are saying?

you believe the rabbit hole of the box cutters attending usa military flight schools? just curious what do you believe ... you are laughable, you dont address any of these, wingnut senior

you attack the messenger and cant answer over 1000 questions i can offer and yet you back the neoncons and have nothing to bring to this thread to support your viiews :shrug:




"but i don't want to go among mad people," said alice.....

"oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "we're all mad here."


/lewis carroll
 

SixFive

bonswa
Forum Member
Mar 12, 2001
18,735
240
63
53
BG, KY, USA
37024583waitingforthebrooklynferry.jpg


America is a great country, right ptguard? We have all the neocons fooled. Please don't tell everyone on here; Dick Cheney has done a fantastic job covering it up the past 6 years!
 

SixFive

bonswa
Forum Member
Mar 12, 2001
18,735
240
63
53
BG, KY, USA
Matisyahu.jpg


My name is matisyahu,
I really want to fool you.
into believing the American dream
ptguard, don't make me scream...
only you and agent know,
we Jews also control all the blow.
beertime where did you go?
you were the original Joe,
who tried to keep all the peeps in the know,
about the dastardly plans of Schlomo
and all my other zionist brothers,
not to mention all the hasidic mothers.
this is only the beginning, maverick,
soon, you'll all be sucking our dix.
muslim terrorists didn't take down those jets,
we just use them, make them our pets.
In the end all will bow down,
and kiss the jewels on my Jewish crown.
ptguard, don't lose any more sleep,
you'll never convince all the sheep!
keep up the good fight, Agent,
don't succumb to smart guys like Clint!
 

marine

poker brat
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
3,867
73
48
50
Fort Worth, TX
one thing that stumps me,

if there is all this overwhelming amount of damning evidence that it was bush and cheney lining this thing up...

we have a democratic congress...
evidence pouring out of your ears...
everything points to bush and company...

yet no one with a shred of political authority has stepped up to the plate and initiated impeachment hearings... or charges....

maybe they just arent seeing the evidence?
you guys better cut and paste more stuff from the internet and print it all out and start mailing it to your congressmen so they can see it. their internet must be broken for them not to see all this clear cut stuff.
idiot-41423.jpg
 

marine

poker brat
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
3,867
73
48
50
Fort Worth, TX
SixFive,

excellent song lyrics!
great stuff!
keep it coming!
Let's fight the good fight and keep our nation on the path to victory over self destruction!
i hi-five your efforts!

istockphoto_2789365_hi_five.jpg
 

pt1gard

Registered
Forum Member
Apr 7, 2002
7,377
3
0
seattle
again gentlemen, where are the planes at the pentagon and shanksville? you are enamoured with pictures like nursery school kids and dont address anything factual ...

the 9-11 commmssion was called a whitewash by the top two men who ran it in their own book, but of course you wouldnt know that bc you dont know anything ...

keep littering the thread until you get bored and run back the real truth in the incredibly factual Popular Mechanics article--anyone who believes that is beyond help ... open any page of DRGs book debunking the lies therein, go to amazon and actually read some reviews from laymen who have read both, people open minded enough to truly investigate, talking to you stooges is futile ...

its cool, marine long ago you said you cant convince me and you are leaving, yet you keep coming back like a dog to its own vomit ... you have to ask yourself why ... i get it, you believe the neocons and this gov. have never done anything wrong, and the rest of you intellectual mavens have ARs well-researched thread to hang out in ...

my goal as you already know is to find free thinking people and post information that sheds more light on the subject; people such as your ilk that become so threatened amuses me ...

BTW, you guys do know you are in the minority now in the USA and world as far as believing the "official story" so doesnt that make you wonder why others have seen the light?
 

SixFive

bonswa
Forum Member
Mar 12, 2001
18,735
240
63
53
BG, KY, USA
again gentlemen, where are the planes at the pentagon and shanksville? you are enamoured with pictures like nursery school kids and dont address anything factual ...

the 9-11 commmssion was called a whitewash by the top two men who ran it in their own book, but of course you wouldnt know that bc you dont know anything ...

keep littering the thread until you get bored and run back the real truth in the incredibly factual Popular Mechanics article--anyone who believes that is beyond help ... open any page of DRGs book debunking the lies therein, go to amazon and actually read some reviews from laymen who have read both, people open minded enough to truly investigate, talking to you stooges is futile ...

its cool, marine long ago you said you cant convince me and you are leaving, yet you keep coming back like a dog to its own vomit ... you have to ask yourself why ... i get it, you believe the neocons and this gov. have never done anything wrong, and the rest of you intellectual mavens have ARs well-researched thread to hang out in ...

my goal as you already know is to find free thinking people and post information that sheds more light on the subject; people such as your ilk that become so threatened amuses me ...

BTW, you guys do know you are in the minority now in the USA and world as far as believing the "official story" so doesnt that make you wonder why others have seen the light?


who said we believe the "official story"??? We just don't believe all the bs you do.
 

THE KOD

Registered
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2001
42,497
260
83
Victory Lane
my goal as you already know is to find free thinking people and post information that sheds more light on the subject; people such as your ilk that become so threatened amuses me ...

..............................................................


Please just stfu .

Your making us crazy with all this bullchit.

And thats saying something.
 

THE KOD

Registered
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2001
42,497
260
83
Victory Lane
My name is matisyahu,
I really want to fool you.
into believing the American dream
ptguard, don't make me scream...
only you and agent know,
we Jews also control all the blow.
beertime where did you go?
you were the original Joe,
who tried to keep all the peeps in the know,
about the dastardly plans of Schlomo
and all my other zionist brothers,
not to mention all the hasidic mothers.
this is only the beginning, maverick,
soon, you'll all be sucking our dix.
muslim terrorists didn't take down those jets,
we just use them, make them our pets.
In the end all will bow down,
and kiss the jewels on my Jewish crown.
ptguard, don't lose any more sleep,
you'll never convince all the sheep!
keep up the good fight, Agent,
don't succumb to smart guys like Clint!
..........................................................

:142smilie :142smilie :142smilie
 

marine

poker brat
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
3,867
73
48
50
Fort Worth, TX
well,

remember when you had me on ignore? let's go back to those days.

The biggest thing you have right is that I am a dog coming back to my own vomit... the vomit being this thread.

As for your openmindedness... gard, I had actually read the crap you put up on here, and have said so numerous times. And all it did was push me further and further from giving your theories any shred of credibility.

Do I think the government is holding some things back on this? yes
Do I think they are responsible themselves for this event? not hardly seriously.. nuclear explosions, invisible planes, seriously dude, get a grip.
Do I think it really makes a difference whatever it is they are holding back? no, as a whole, the public can not fully comprehend everything that went on, and to put forth EVERYTHING would overwhelm the public and cause chaos in the streets as people realize our own very mortal vulnerabilities.
For proof of such a chain of events happening... look at the current conspiracies.. people have taken 2 line sound bites and transformed them into full blown government cover ups based on those sound bites, without realizing where those soundbytes come from and the full context of them.

You can pose all the questions that you want and have all the answer from your "scientific" sources lined up to respond.. but there is only one question that counts and you will never answer it... why have no formal impeachment charges been brought up based on all these facts when there is a heavily favored democratic congress sitting right now and the whole vocal country is against bush?
I mean gee whiz, 6 years of fact gathering on all you tin foil hats and still nothing solid?
must be one heck of a cover up. Perhaps if you break the da vinci code and find the holy grail that will unravel this mystery.

You keep calling me sheep, I'll keep calling you a braying donkey. Reading you preach to your "followers" is hilarious. I think it is how scientology started.... someone came up with a silly thought and got people to believe in him and give him money so that he could continue his teachings. However silly that idea is, people bite into the apple because it seems trendy and cool to be a part of it... all results of great marketing abilities and spin. That's pretty much what I think the this whole conspiracy thing is... marketing and spin. See the Darksucker Theory for details.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top