Another take on all the politcal crap going on

[Chadman]

Yeah, let's criticize hammer's assessment and then take a close look at Freeze's numbers for quality assessments. A quarter of Freeze's assessment that today the middle class is better off deals with having Cable television and Internet access. Wow, that's some special insight for you. Our parents had neither, and a lot of people do now, since neither were really invented yet.

Thanks, I never even thought of comparing those things. Definitely worth mentioning. Keep in mind that Al Gore invented the Internet, so the liberals win that one, anyway...

Taking Neoconal (I just made that up...not sure how I want to spell it yet...) credit for something that has absolutely nothing to do with political influence or input - now that is special.

 

[Chadman]

ctown, I wanted to mention that I think your post is a good one, to start out this thread. There are many reasons for thinking that things are good for people now, too.

Sometimes things get so frustrating for people that they can't take it anymore and actually try to affect change. I think we are on the brink of one of those times, if more people will stop saying there is nothing we can do about it and that all the politicians are crooks and what can you do?

We need to look at term limits. We need to look at public financing of elections (I'm not necessarily saying these are right, just saying we need to look at things). We need to get off our arses (myself included) and be a part of changing things. Attend local political meetings and speak out. Write letters and e-mails. Talk to others. Learn more about what your candidates have actually done, compared to what they said they were going to do. Follow the money trails of contributions and legislative votes and commentary after (both parties). Etc.

The system is clearly not working in everyone's best interest right now. And it can be our system, if we try. Or at the very least, we can be a part of trying to change it. All of us.

 

[ctownguy]

ctown, I wanted to mention that I think your post is a good one, to start out this thread. There are many reasons for thinking that things are good for people now, too.

Sometimes things get so frustrating for people that they can't take it anymore and actually try to affect change. I think we are on the brink of one of those times, if more people will stop saying there is nothing we can do about it and that all the politicians are crooks and what can you do?

We need to look at term limits. We need to look at public financing of elections (I'm not necessarily saying these are right, just saying we need to look at things). We need to get off our arses (myself included) and be a part of changing things. Attend local political meetings and speak out. Write letters and e-mails. Talk to others. Learn more about what your candidates have actually done, compared to what they said they were going to do. Follow the money trails of contributions and legislative votes and commentary after (both parties). Etc.

The system is clearly not working in everyone's best interest right now. And it can be our system, if we try. Or at the very least, we can be a part of trying to change it. All of us.

What you say is true, but one of my points that I tried to convey was it is next to impossible to initiate change because the very thing we need to change is run by the class that won't allow it. Couple that with the fact that our society (country) has grown to the almost unmanageable size it has, IMHO it is not practical to think that the real change we need to make will ever take place.

A cynnical view, maybe, but I think a very realistic view.

 

[blgstocks]

Yeah, let's criticize hammer's assessment and then take a close look at Freeze's numbers for quality assessments. A quarter of Freeze's assessment that today the middle class is better off deals with having Cable television and Internet access. Wow, that's some special insight for you. Our parents had neither, and a lot of people do now, since neither were really invented yet.

Thanks, I never even thought of comparing those things. Definitely worth mentioning. Keep in mind that Al Gore invented the Internet, so the liberals win that one, anyway...

Taking Neoconal (I just made that up...not sure how I want to spell it yet...) credit for something that has absolutely nothing to do with political influence or input - now that is special.

For those that care, this website has 12 different quality of life indicators. You can check it out, they have right and left wing views on the site and its coming from many different professors so i believe it is unbiased and researched well.
http://www.calvert-henderson.com/overview.htm

Funny how chadman says we are wrong for criticizing hammers post in its entirety and in the same breath you criticize dr freeze's post and blow 1 of the five or six indicators out of proportion.

Anyway hammer, I believe you are illiterate, just read your posts and there is your evidence for that statement. And if you want facts and figures just check that website out for numbers. I did a quick scan, of the 12 there was only 2 things that were not at all time bests for all people in this country and that was income and infrastructure.

Income, though still RISING beyond inflation on avg, was rising faster for middle to lower income families in the 50-70s. But in the 80s and up it has been rising the fastest for the top 5%. Still income adjusted for inflation is still at one of the highest points in as long as they have been keeping records. Also infrastructure, though so much better and larger, is more crowded and congested and therefore more accidents though significantly less casualties per vehicle.

Sorry to break it to you guys who dont believe, it is undeniable, our quality of life is almost universally better now than ever before.

Oh and chadman, I CAN criticize Hammers "assesment" because all of his "assesments(indicators) including vacation time and steak and lobster dinner on dates were no where to be seen, while his healthcare issue is mixed in with prevention, quality of providers, access to healthcare, successfulness and extent of surgeries, all of which has gone up dramatically. And it says that the US spends the most money on healthcare of any county in the world, unfortunately can only accomplish what other do for cheaper.

But regardless there are some numbers, some solid indicators for anyone who is interested.

 

[Chadman]

blgstocks, I never said anyone was wrong for criticising Hammer's assessment. Heck, if we enacted that theory, this would be a dead forum. We all post, we all criticize at times, and our criticisms can be criticized as well. I just thought that since Freeze handpicked some things to compare, it was also fair to examine what he wanted us to look at.

You say I blew those things out of proportion. How so? I even labeled my comment as addressing 25% of his factors - the part of the post that showed things that had not been invented and available to the public at that time (which could be a part of a comparison, to be fair) and then saying the neocons deserved the credit for them being available to the public now. Since you seem to be making a point about my math...I picked two of the eight, not one of the six. Evidently you are using some "fuzzy math" in your addin'.

Finally, you come back at me saying it's fine for you to criticize Hammer's "assessment" because (it seems to me) you say his numbers are nowhere to be seen (referenced, I assume). Freeze used no references in his assessment, did he? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. I'm not saying his points are wrong, I'd guess they probably are right (especially the ones where the products had not been invented yet...lol) ...but I am having a really difficult time with your "appropriateness" callout towards me. You can criticize whoever you like as far as I'm concerned. As long as you can deal with people commenting about it, too, I think that spurs on some good discussions around here.

Thanks for the link, in seriousness. Will make for interesting reading, and worth examining.

 

[Marco]

Chadmans post about getting active and ctownguys followup comment about the people in power not going to allow it to happen pretty much sum up my position on the whole deal....

The House retirement package they voted for themselves should have never been allowed to happen in a true democracy....when people are allowed to write their own paycheck without any checks and balances in place you end up with things like this lopsided House retirement package and CEO's making 300 times what the average worker in their company makes...owners are entitled to a profit but ???.....tell me how much stockholders are getting screwed because the guy at the end of the table writes himself a check with a number and 10 zeros behind it...

You can't vote for people and expect anything to change when the system allows 300 of them to get together and write their own paychecks and allow themselves political donations from Corporation X and then turn around and pass legislation to help Corporation X in return for the bribe money.

Blatantly obvious conflicts of interest occur daily in the political arena and until these are outlawed you're stuck with the same system producing the same failings.

 

[djv]

DTB there's more then welfare folks with out health care. 30% of the companies in this country to not offer health care. And for those who do some can't afford it anyway. ASD Since I left there 3.5 ears ago. Folks tell me there cost has more then doubled. Was about 90 a month with 500 deductible. Is now $185 with $3000 deductible and $20 dollar co pay each visit. For retires like myself it went from $198 to $438 with $20 co-pays $1750 deductible per person. Chit like that is what causes more folks to say screw it.

 

[neverteaseit]

well i dont know about most but my parents took us to florida for 14 days every year for nearly 10 straight years for vacation. We also ate dinner together at night every night except sat. something i doubt many do once a week because they are 2 busy with both parents workin just to make it. They also paid 32,000 for a 2,200 sq ft brick home which by the way sells today at around 170,000 - 200,000 in our area. thats nearly a 7 times increase which last i checked my parents wages never increased 7 times in that time frame. and yes they were middle class.

i cant agree that the life has gotten better for most just because we have some new gadgets to play with. most can barely afford daycare in today's society.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Not saying no prob with health care and cost--I'm saying many don't have it because gov (tax payors cover them) or they opt not have it.
Hammer They can get coverage in high risk pool regardless of health.
Probably my biggest pet peeve which I have yet to see mentioned--most carriers/plans can raise rates on claim experience.
To me it is totally unfair for prudent person who purchases coverage when healthy to be priced out later with increases due to claim history.