Democracy? I think it's not going to matter how much time or money we waste in that country, but it's eventuall going to split into three distinct countries that will be at war with each other for years.
Anyone think Iraq will eventually be a
- Thread starter Master Capper
- Start date
Hell lets make it the 51st state. There getting as much money or more then some of our own at home get. Sad so many dieing for lies.
Palehose said:
What exactly do you mean by "stay the course?" What kind of course are we on? What in your mind will constitute an Iraq that will sustain a democracy?
WITH U.S. forces there, there is no dependable infrastructure...little things that people in a country like - like water, electricity, that kind of thing. The road to the airport cannot be deemed safe, let alone roads anywhere in the country. Iraq has become a land of insurgency training and a place where people actually travel to learn how to be a better terrorist. Do you actually think that from watching the three factions positioning for control in Iraq that a paper democracy will be sustainable and maintain order in that country? Maybe it will...I just don't see evidence of it.
When we attacked Iraq, we demolished the military and police force that was there. This is a simple fact. The country has no organized military and no real police force without U.S. troops to stand guard next to them. Sure, they have uniforms and a few remaining military pieces laying around that weren't blown up, but this is pretty much the window dressing for a store that has nothing of substance inside.
Our troops are essentially training people who previously had no training in police or military endeavors. How long should it take to train untrained people to form a quality, organized security system in a country filled with extremist terrorists and politically subversive people in positions of leadership? The offhanded comments being made by this administration and conservative posters about "staying the course" sound like they make sense, but they fail miserably when examined.
There really is - nor was - no course to stay on. They manufactured this situation, and now they are telling us to stay on it. It's embarrassing, and the world knows it.
You guys sit around drinking the Kool-Aid, chanting your talking points..."It takes hard work...stay the course...we're making progress..." all the while the people you support are planning their legal defenses for their upcoming indictments and explanations of where the money went in Iraq and now Katrina.
I'm sick of it. :jerkit:
Our children are dying for governments guilty of war crimes and governors being indicted right and left for stealing the very $$ needed to prosecute a war. The other enemy is planning a new government after the US, not Bush cuts and runs(C&R) and they will. The US Had to borrow $50 Million from China for relief aid for Pakistan. They're spending 5.6 Billion dollars of your grand children's money per MONTH. Rumsfeld says we could be there 10 more years. There will be a revolution first.
Palehose,
You again are missing my point completely, the point is that I don't think we can throw enough time or money at Iraq to make it a Democracy. Eventually, the hatred between the three sects is going to throw the country into a civil war that will eventually more than likely divide the country into three distinct countries. My question is at what point do we pull back and say enough is enough? How many more livesand how many more dollars do we throw at this problem before we call it quits? It's like the welfare system here in the US, we know that as long as we reward folks with funds for sitting at home they are going to remain idle and their offspring then fall into the same cycle.
You again are missing my point completely, the point is that I don't think we can throw enough time or money at Iraq to make it a Democracy. Eventually, the hatred between the three sects is going to throw the country into a civil war that will eventually more than likely divide the country into three distinct countries. My question is at what point do we pull back and say enough is enough? How many more livesand how many more dollars do we throw at this problem before we call it quits? It's like the welfare system here in the US, we know that as long as we reward folks with funds for sitting at home they are going to remain idle and their offspring then fall into the same cycle.
Master Capper said:
Well not as much time or money we put into wellfare thats for sure ! The funny part is what we do in the Mid East will do Americans much more good than what the Welfare does for Americans ....unless your ok with teaching generations of people to believe the only way to get a raise is to have another child so their government check gets bigger ... None the less we will need at least a 10 year presence their if we want it to work ...really why do you think its diferent than are what was it 10 to 15 years in Germany ???
None the less we will need at least a 10 year presence their if we want it to work ...really why do you think its diferent than are what was it 10 to 15 years in Germany ???
Well a big difference was that Germany was not divided into three religious sects that have a deep hatred for each other and have been at war with each other forever. Secondly, we didn't occupy the whole country as the Soviets took the east and we took the west. Finally, I could be wrong but I believe much of the rest of the world participated financially and with resources to rebuild Germany.
Well a big difference was that Germany was not divided into three religious sects that have a deep hatred for each other and have been at war with each other forever. Secondly, we didn't occupy the whole country as the Soviets took the east and we took the west. Finally, I could be wrong but I believe much of the rest of the world participated financially and with resources to rebuild Germany.
Master Capper said:
Why do you think it was divided in half ?
There was 2 sects they just werent religious sects but they hated each other none the less .
The rest of the world participated about as much as they are with Iraq... I think your forgetting what condition those countries were in ,they couldnt help much, and we ended up helping rebuild alot more than just Germany .
What the hell are you talking about? They were not divided because of intra-German hatred. Please, have some understanding of history. Any hatred between the 2 Germanies only developed over time during the Cold War - and it's still not even remotely comparable.Palehose said:
In fact, Germany was not considered West and East initially. It was divided into quadrants - American, English, French, Soviet. It only became divided in 2 because of the differences between the West and USSR.
You are actually comapring a supposed hatred between East and West Germans to the 3 nationalities of Iraq????
smurphy said:
Hmmm why are you leaving out the choice Germans got to make... why do you think they made the choices they did ..or do you not know what I am speaking of ?
You got me - not sure of what you mean by choices made by Germans in that time. My understanding is that the decisions were being made and implemented by the Allies. Unfortunately for East Germany, it was the Soviets imiplementing a communist government. Sure - plenty of East Germans eventually bought into the Soviet logic - it was either that or flee. Don't know what choice they had in the matter early on though.
"None the less we will need at least a 10 year presence their if we want it to work ...really why do you think its diferent than are what was it 10 to 15 years in Germany ???"
I agree with you MC--the question-- to what extent our presence will be? While I think celebration on past ratification is premature--it did get one thing accomplished--The Sunni found from intial elections--the sideline was not the wise route to take and got a lot more involved in this one.Hopefully it might indicate that they take a more democratic means vs agressive way to a means in the future--but again any celebration in that area would be premature also.
I agree with you MC--the question-- to what extent our presence will be? While I think celebration on past ratification is premature--it did get one thing accomplished--The Sunni found from intial elections--the sideline was not the wise route to take and got a lot more involved in this one.Hopefully it might indicate that they take a more democratic means vs agressive way to a means in the future--but again any celebration in that area would be premature also.
I agree with both of you - although 10 years would be a miralce IMO. I wish we had an honest and competent assessment up front. It pisses the hell out of me that Bush supporters don't hold the Bush administration accountable for the bullshit deception and/or incompetency over this venture. Maybe it's because they are afraid it only "gives power to the enemy", but it couldn't be more obvious.
Fact - We blew it.
Fact - We can't leave yet
We wanna cut through the BS or play games? I say double the troops, admit Bush is f'kin a-hole idiot, and do this right. We owe it to ourselves, Iraq, and the world.
Fact - We blew it.
Fact - We can't leave yet
We wanna cut through the BS or play games? I say double the troops, admit Bush is f'kin a-hole idiot, and do this right. We owe it to ourselves, Iraq, and the world.
Being a Bush and war supporter the only downfall on operation I see is post war immediatly after fall of bagdad.They have to look only in our own country and know there would be looting and destruction by certain elements at 1st opportunty in after math of chaos.
As far as suicide bombers currently causing havoc--there is no defence against it regardless of what country your in.More importantly is the fact that this admin has stuck to their guns on finishing the job despite the media opposition. With all the world watching maybe we gain back some of the face we lost earlier--when those including George senior and others pulled out at 1st sign of negative sentiment--it sure is throwing curve to terrorist who in their own words were counting on it.
As far as suicide bombers currently causing havoc--there is no defence against it regardless of what country your in.More importantly is the fact that this admin has stuck to their guns on finishing the job despite the media opposition. With all the world watching maybe we gain back some of the face we lost earlier--when those including George senior and others pulled out at 1st sign of negative sentiment--it sure is throwing curve to terrorist who in their own words were counting on it.
Being a Bush and war supporter the only downfall on operation I see is post war immediatly after fall of bagdad.They have to look only in our own country and know there would be looting and destruction by certain elements at 1st opportunty in after math of chaos.
Thats called having a post occupation plan in place and thats something that the administration did not have in place, we were told by clowns like Cheney that we would be welcomed with open arms. Neither Cheney or Bush had or have any concept of war since neither has ever been in actual battle so they had and still have no clue. You can have elections every day if you like but it will not heal the deep hatred that exists between the religious sects in Iraq and all we are doing in prolonging the inevitable when Iraq Will turn to civil war.
Thats called having a post occupation plan in place and thats something that the administration did not have in place, we were told by clowns like Cheney that we would be welcomed with open arms. Neither Cheney or Bush had or have any concept of war since neither has ever been in actual battle so they had and still have no clue. You can have elections every day if you like but it will not heal the deep hatred that exists between the religious sects in Iraq and all we are doing in prolonging the inevitable when Iraq Will turn to civil war.
A dynamic people don't realize is that there is an abundance of oil in the Shiite and Kurd regions but hardly any in the Sunni area.
Two countries from rouge regimes into voting democracies in 3 years---Palestine fighting Hezbala--Lybia surrenders without shot fired--Lebonon pulling away from Syria--Pakistan and Saudi Yemen--capturing terrorist by the 100's
--yep they have been miserable failures-
-Lets look at the liberal mastermind --- look the other way and do nothing--let them train openly everywhere--free flow of funds--open networks of communications--and if offered the big fish on platter refuse---then go on good morning america and tell what mistakes you think this admin has made. Yep you tell em Slick--
--yep they have been miserable failures-
-Lets look at the liberal mastermind --- look the other way and do nothing--let them train openly everywhere--free flow of funds--open networks of communications--and if offered the big fish on platter refuse---then go on good morning america and tell what mistakes you think this admin has made. Yep you tell em Slick--
