Are we 'at war?'

kosar

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Was watching a piece on the domestic spying debate. Somebody was going on and on...'blah, blah, blah....after all, we're at war.' Now, I really think this spying thing has been blown up by the libs, but are we really 'at war?' And how long are we going to use that to justify unilateral actions by the executive branch?

I mean, by any traditional definition there is no war going on. We are occupying a couple of countries and taking potshots from ragtag bands of Saddam loyalists and radical Islamfascists.

Who exactly is this 'war' against? Terror? That's not an answer, that's a euphemism.
 

THE KOD

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The simple answer in a nutshell.

hell yeh we are at war.

And if George wants to tap phones to get ahold of the radical nuts living in the US on VISAs and getting calls from abroad from al quaida operatives, then I say go ahead.

I mean even on Oprah show today, I saw a clip where she was saying there are up to 200 people in the US right now willing to be suicide bombers.

Thats all we need is for a few of them to go to malls or over to sea world and go off. Then our kids would be afraid living in their own country.

wonderful

Tap away George . Find them and dump them off a huge transport plane into the middle of the ocean.

Yeh we are at war.
 
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Spytheweb

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Better be careful or the secret police will come and get you in the middle of the night, and they don't have to tell your family or charge you with anything! That can't happen in America, it already has!!!
 

kosar

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spibble spab said:
who here is actually afraid of the NSA, CIA et al. for listening in on their phones? sounds like the play of politics once again

I agree with this as I said as much in my prior post saying the libs are blowing this particular topic out of proportion..

What caught my attention is the end of the spiel when he says, 'after all, we're at war.' As if that explained everything. Who are we at war with exactly? And if one suggests that we are at war with terrorists, when can that war ever be declared over?

This particular subject, imo, might be exaggerated by the libs, but there is a clear pattern of this executive branch unilaterally doing things that they justify 'because we're at war.'

Nobody came close to addressing whether we are actually at war or how it might make the executive branch accountable to nobody.
 

dr. freeze

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personally, i would just assume this stuff AND the whole torture issue not talked about and let the CIA handle business as usual like they have for the last few decades

Bush should just shut up about it and let the CIA work and hope the problem goes away
 

godsfavoritedog

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Of course we're not at war. But we don't NEED to be in order for this bullshit to work. We just need to make the masses believe that we are. Unfortunately, putting one over on the American people has never been difficult.
 

Nosigar

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Are we at war?

I don't know, but I've been hearing about a quagmire.... Vietnam...

I guess it's only a war when it's convenient. Ohhhh.... Then it's not a war.... then it is a war.

Maybe we're all just living on a great plantation?
 

kosar

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If we are at war, and 'wartime measures' being invoked at every turn, we may as well consider us being at war until the end of time. We will never eradicate terrorists and we will never change the hearts and minds of Islamfascists. So if those are who we are at war with, well.....perpetual war, I guess.

IOW, when we leave Iraq and Afghanistan, are we still at war? Is it still 'wartime?'

I've seen a few comparisons to Vietnam, but i've always rejected those. I don't see many similarities at all. USSR/Afghan has much more relevance.
 

Chadman

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I wonder how many people - especially conservatives - that are saying that Bush's admittance of spying on Americans would care if the CIA or NSA were parked out in the street in front of their house using high powered telescopes and cameras to watch what goes on in your house. Or, hey...why not just let them come up to your window and look inside, for the good of the fight against terrorism? No big deal, right? They intercept phone calls and listen in, when the calls are being made in your home. That's ok, right? I mean, you don't even have to speak to someone in another country anymore...just have ever spoken to someone who has.

I assume it would be ok with you guys, because if you extrapolate out the behavior that most of us that post on this board, then most of us could be construed as helping terrorists. Some of these sportsbooks are in countries that harbor terrorists. We've been told by this administration and other legislators that offshore gambling interests are havens for terrorists and money laundering. So, when you use the Internet to place a wager, or use your phone or cell phone, then I would assume - using the stated logic of this administration - that you should be monitored quite closely. Considering your activities - they are helping terrorists, remember - then they should be able to protect America from people like you, and use whatever methods are necessary to protect our country.

To move into the future...think down the road when say, Hillary Clinton is the President. Most likely the democrats will regain a majority in congress and in the Senate. History shows this to be probable at some point. So, I guess you guys don't care if the CIA and NSA spies on Republican party members, lobbyists and donators without having to report that. You don't care that you won't know what they are doing, because there is no way to know or monitor it. Like things are now. It's ok now, right? So, I assume you are cool with it later, when you are not in power.

And, since it's apparently ok now for this President (the first one ever, thanks to Alito's plan for increased Presidential authority) to add signing statements to any legislation, to give him a "legal" way around any law he doesn't like, that it will be ok for Hillary to do that too. Make it up as she goes along, and have the power to go around the laws made by congress and the Senate by adding a statement.

I'd really like to hear some thoughts on this. If you Conservatives can honestly tell me that you don't care if these things go on in the future, then you might have some credibility. You'd be constitutionally wrong and probably not being truthful, in my opinion, but you would have some credibility on these issues.

Interested to see some responses.
 

Nosigar

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kosar said:
If we are at war, and 'wartime measures' being invoked at every turn, we may as well consider us being at war until the end of time. We will never eradicate terrorists and we will never change the hearts and minds of Islamfascists. So if those are who we are at war with, well.....perpetual war, I guess.

Yeah, those wartime measures are really putting a constant hurt on us; curfews, rationing of goods, metals, clothing, etc.

But they said the Cold War would never end, until the Earth was destroyed. I guess it's more a change in ideology which eventually wins these confilcts, not necessarily a surrender by a particular faction.
 

kosar

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The wartime measures being that the executive branch keeps pushing and pushing to empower itself to the point where the checks and balances are getting distorted. This under the premise of 'hey we're at war' and 'wartime'. Well, when would you consider wartime over? Or do these things just become 'for all time?'

As Chad mentioned above, I would hope you guys give the next democratic president the same seemingly endless amount of leeway you give this administration. Somehow that seems unlikely.
 

Nosigar

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kosar said:
As Chad mentioned above, I would hope you guys give the next democratic president the same seemingly endless amount of leeway you give this administration. Somehow that seems unlikely.

I doubt it.
 

Chadman

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You're not going to have much of a choice about it, if the inner circle has anything to say about it. This group is so maniacally going about gaining ultimate power that they don't care what they do to get it, or what will happen after they are gone. The problem for conservatives is, that if this administration succeeds in some of these measures, they will be in place after they are gone.

Maybe some of you should look past defending this administration blindly for a minute and realize what is happening.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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" wonder how many people - especially conservatives - that are saying that Bush's admittance of spying on Americans would care if the CIA or NSA were parked out in the street in front of their house using high powered telescopes and cameras to watch what goes on in your house."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Spying on Americans?? Are terrorist inside U.S. Americans?? Who knows who they are spying on--if it phone calls from terrorist abroud to anyone in U'S I hope someone is listenening--
As I said before the only people I've seen complain of spying is attorney's of terrorist being held. Can anyone name any one else filing complaint--if not I have to assume all this hoopla is over issue without one confirmed abuse--only speculation. Should criminals/terrorist be concerned--you dam right--should your ave law abiding citizens--someone explain how if they think so.


Who's rights are the ACLU/Libs trying to protect anyway--as far as I can see its been the terrorist--criminals in jail--child porn sites ect.
Frankly I wish they bust everyone of them.


Do you really think there would be concern to them if they found you bet off shore--maybe from IRS stand point.

If bookie gets busted and they have book with hundred of bettors--do you think the bettors are prosecuted also? As far as I know it is not against the law to bet only to book--correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Chadman

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So, Wayne, you don't care then if the democrats do not have to report spying activities in the future? You don't care that if this is allowed that democrats in power will be able to essentially spy on who they want - politicians, lobbyists, political action groups, etc., and you won't know about it because they won't have to get a warrant - even after the fact. There will be no paper trail, no way to know what they are doing.

This is the thing...there is no way we can know for sure. Whether it's republicans or democrats. And that is wrong. Isn't it?
 

kosar

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Yes, I presume that if Hillary is elected, and she leaves this stuff in place(hey, maybe she'll come up with some neat new ideas of her own!), we'll be back to the 'why the government all up in our shit' whining from the Republicans. You know, the party that wants government to stay out of our lives. The party of little government. The party that spends wisely and is fiscally conservative. The party that supposedly is 'strong on immigration.' Everything opposite that this admin, who they adore, has demonstrated.
 
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