are we

[ssd]

djv:
Do you really think that a President comes in and in less than two years, their policies can screw up an economy? Please. You have said many inteliigent things on this forum but this is nonsense. Clinton's presidency and the boom in the economy that he enjoyed had NOTHING to do with Bill CLinton. He reaped the rewards from Reagan and Bush policies that spurred the economy. The boom didn't hit until after Clinton came into Office. Now, we are seeing in our economy the effects of Clinton policies. I do not blame Bill for the economy; there are a number of factors working here. But do not blame Bush for the economic woes we are now experiencing. the policies he is instituting will once again spur our economy. The effects may not appear for years. Enron and the corporate scandal, the 9-11 disaster; they have allcontributed to our weak economy. Putting tax dollars back into the taxpayers hands will help. Getting people off social services will help.
Also, in an earlier post in this thread, someone stated a "pre-emptive war on an Islamic nation". This is not pre-emptive. The Persian Gulf War is not over. The US and its allies agreed to a truce if Saddam disarmed. He has not disarmed. He has been given 12 years to disarm and he hasn't. How much time do you give someone? We are finishing the war because Saddam has not lived up to his side of the deal. And this will not be a Vietnam. The actual war part of this war will be over quickly and decisively. The difficult part will be the regime change. My best friend's fiancee is from Iraq. What Hellah10 describes is true. It is horrible what SH has done over there. She has told me horror stories.

 

[fletcher]

well watched all of day 2 , was funny how when the uk and us were talking iraq and germ. and france really could care less they would turn away and had that look and when uk spoke 1 got up and went somewhere.

Then when Iraq spoke us walked out and 2nd team was in not good. looks like no bend from either side.

Do i stand behind what my leader will choose yes i am proud of my country but i have a bad feeling about this i wish i knew why.

Just wish it did not come to this and risking life of all countries involved. but i guess that is what war is. But i still have a bad feeling inside not about what i think we will do but it is something i cannot put finger on maybe i think it could turn into a full out world war never seen one and really don't care to be around for one.

nice points by all and thanks for keeping it clean and with out judgement of other's views and right to speak.

Now if someone knows why i feel bad about this and am i the only one that feels like it could be something more then DS? would be good to hear from. I just feel this could be a powder keg that goes off maybe i am wrong i hope like hell i am.

 

[StevieD]

Fletch, my guess is that you have a bad feeling is because you are human. I would think that even the people that think we should go to War do not "want" war.

 

[twofingers]

so because there are other leaders who are as bad as Saddam we should let him off the hook? If for other reason then to save the Iraq people from this monster, I support the President in his mission to kick saddam's ass out of power. If I was an Iraq citizen living under those conditions, i would be looking for help to get him out there as well.

Our attempt at diplomacy has failed for 12 years with this guy. Time is up.

Those who give up their freedom for the promise of security deserve neither freedom or security. Ben Franklin

as true today as it was 217 years ago

 

[Wilson]

Hellah,

They are from Beirut. Her maiden name is Fadul. Great family! The raw hamburger was not appealing to me..until they got me hammered and I have been hooked ever since. They also got me eating a thing they call a meat pie...(I forget the native name)

 

[ferdville]

I don't know how anyone could possibly still believe that there are no ties to Iraq and terrorists. There have been no concrete ties to Hussein and Bin Laden, but there are numerous ties between Iraq and terrorists. Hussein, like Arafat, has paid "reward" money to various suicide bombers. Sitting in the Iraq desert is the fusilage of a 747. Do you suppose it is their to train future Iraqui stewardesses? Saddam and Bin Laden share many if not most of the same philosophy regarding the U.S. Bin Laden has told Iraq to stand tall and fight the U.S. I worry far more about Saddam and Bin Laden's goons than those of North Korea. After all, there have been scores of terrorist activities by radical Muslims throughout the world that hae killed and maimed thousands in the past decade. Anything lately from those radical North Koreans? Hussein would be pleased to sell his weaponry to Al Queda for the asking. That is what scares me. Whether the removal of Hussein would end most of this craziness is not only debatable, but unlikely. But you have to start somewhere and he is surely a cancer that can only grow worse.

 

[djv]

SSD don't know how old you are but the facts are simple. Bush 1 lost to Clinton because the economy was real bad. And Bush 1 got some of that from the left overs Ronny gave him. And yes a economy can go bad in less then 2 years real easy. For sure when you dont pay attention. Forsure when you talk war enough to chase oil prices to all time new highs in 15 states. Airlines paying more then ever before. And no offcial word from Wash DC about any need to release some of our oil reserves. I say OUR because all of us already payed for that oil in reserve. 90000 reservist called up for this war in last three months. But yet we had 308000 more folks layed off last month. Many companies say it's to help off set higher energy cost. So calling up reservist has not done a dam thing to stop the layoffs. Like I said above were going to war and it may be needed. If not for anything else the oil. Remember war can cause moe problems, then it ever solves. That has been proven by history over and over. So I hope this is about more then oil. Funny thing is more then half the world and about half of our country think it's about oil. I can only hope and pray someone knows what the hell there doing.

 

[hellah10]

Hellah,

They are from Beirut. Her maiden name is Fadul. Great family! The raw hamburger was not appealing to me..until they got me hammered and I have been hooked ever since. They also got me eating a thing they call a meat pie...(I forget the native name)

Beirut has actually turned into a nice place now that the war is over. Cisco has a big place over in Beruit too. The meat pie you refer too is pronounced (Sa-Fe-Ha) <--- GOOOD STUFF MY MAN!!!

Glad you seem to be happy

 

[Chanman]

Show him the Persian 'Hottie' that was posted a while back-Holy MOMMA!

 

[hellah10]

Show him the Persian 'Hottie' that was posted a while back-Holy MOMMA!

 

[ssd]

DJV
Thanks for the response. I do know a thing or two about economics. Minor in economics from Miami, OH. Points well taken. Could the slump in the ecomony also have been exacerbated by the 9-11 attacks and all the additional spending that that has incurred? I do not believe this recession had been brought about by the Bush administration. Our economy was in decline during the last two years of the Clinton admin. They wouldn't admit to it. I do not want to go into all the technical details. Economic theories are kinda like assholes - everyone has one. You are entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine. Only time will tell us who is correct. But you said that an economy can go to shit in less than two years if you do nothing. The Clinton Admin started the fall, rasing taxes and supporting new govt programs. Jesus said :if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. If you teach him to fish, he'll eat for life. Same thing goes for Welfare. Teach these people a skill or job and let them earn a living rather than having the working people of this country provide for them. History (I also have a history minor) should have taught us this lesson from the Roman Empire. They developed a welfare system for the veterans of their numerous wars. It was one of the reasons for the decline of the Roman Empire. Eventually, everyone wanted to be on it and no one wanted to work!
I am not looking forward to this war. It is needed and I'll support the troops and the country. However, no one wants war. There are a multitude of reasons for this conflict. #1 : I believe that W. believes that the American peolpe are at risk. The Iraqi people are oppressed. There may be oil concerns, there may be dollar currnecy concerns but I think these are all secondary or tertiary. Hopefully, it will be a quick, decisive conflict. In the first Persian Gulf War, we incurred less war casualties than the number of deaths in the Rhode Island bar fire. There were more overall casualties from accidents, etc but we lost very few soldiers. Pray for the same results.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I am no economic whiz by any imagination but common sense tells me Presidents and their administrations have far less to do with economy than Greenspan and major events happening during their tenure.When you have wars and 911's, economys going to be bad regardless whos in,when you have tech boom its going to be good again regardless whos in.When boom crashes its devastating regardless of who riding herd. I don't think whether Dem's or Reb's are in in make much difference.With that being said I am not big fan of all of Mr Bushes economic budget but like I said my economics is far from steller.
I have found Hellah10 posts enlightening and appreciate him sharing them. I think several of his views are shared from many from that area. Would be nice if we could go in without a shot being fired,surround the city and give all the civilians an opportunity to walk out before we went in.--but that is a dream.I think last chance of no war is Russia pressuring Saddam to go in exile. They have been pressing very hard and at what point does Saddam realize he has no recouse but life or death--and somehow I don't view him as a martyr--so maybe?

 

[ferdville]

I can't blame "W" for the overall mess that the economy is in, however, I think Bush and his advisors have done very little to even stem the tide of decline. Agreeing with djv again (what has happened to me?) about oil reserves - we just put in another 40 million barrels recently. Regular unleaded was as much as 2.09 yesterday in my neighborhood. However, I also think that the oil companies have learned well from the power company scandals. Many have shut down production or heavily curtailed same so they can make the shift from "winter" to "summer" production. Same thing happened out here when there was a power shortage. Companies just went "offline" to fix minor problems, non-existant problems, or do "routine maintenance." Of course, this resulted in a "shortage" and prices went sky high. Another area no one seems to mention is that of credit card interest rates and the like. Interest rates have not been this low in many years. Rates offered for CD's and Money Market funds are not much better than keeping your money under your mattress. Yet consumer credit card rates and other similar loans have not budged. with unemployment very high, many people are forced to use their credit cards to survive. I guess these things don't mean much when we stand on the brink of war, but "W" and his cronies just haven't done much to fix this economy........

 

[djv]

Im so old that I can get lost in the past I admit that. But I always say lets learn from it. Bush needs to look at some of the things that worked well for Reagen and Clinton. At same time look at the things that did not work so well for his Dad. I say it's time to get started. We cant drag or feet on this. The economy can drag us down as a nation.

 

[ferdville]

djv - we are once again in agreement. Certainly the Iraq conflict is on the minds of most Americans. But I would venture that the economy is on the mind of all Americans. I cannot believe that "W" is doing so little to stimulate the economy at a time so crucial as this. Let's face it - presidential advisors are probably making our economic policy anyway - Bush needs to get going in this area.

 

[StevieD]

I have not heard this discussed before and if it has my apologies. But what happens if that nut Hussain asks the UN for protection from the invading Americans. Could the UN send "Peace Keepers" over there? That could really stir things up more than they all ready are.

 

[kcwolf]

Very enlightning subject. Many well thought out statements.

I don't like getting into politics or religion with anyone, everyone loses everytime.

I would like to share this though.

I had a long delay getting home from Atlanta recently.

While in the airport, I finally ended up in a bar (surprise).

By coincidence, I was sitting between a high ranking officer of the Navy and a newly retired Special Ops. Both gentlemen have been all over the world, many times over. All the back to Vietnam to being on the USS Cole.

I talked to these guys for about 4 hours, mostly light hearted gibberish. No surprise, they said little about serious issues that was started in this thread by Eric.

They both left me with several things I'll never forget. But they were both vehement about one thing. The upcoming attack on Iraq and some other plans have been in the "works" for 4.5 years. It has nothing to do with politics!

They both mentioned how serious this is. They both mentioned that Iraq will be attacked, no doubt about it. More "protection measures" have also been planned for years. Not sure what that means, as neither would elaborate.

I just know Willy and Jonathan (guys I was sitting with) will always be in my thoughts. All our armed forces are in my thougths also.

Our present world situation isn't pretty.

 

[djv]

K C you had to wait it out in a bar. Nasty but someone had to do it. Yes this war it is said had planning started back in 98. They felt then he was contained. So he got bombed for 4/5 days at key site instead. That and they had a lot going with Kosovo. Amen to our troops. We can only hope its as easy as some think. Im not sold on that. Never heard of any war being easy.

 

[Chanman]

Just wanted to add a little footnote- the wife & I were @ Santa Monica yesterday and saw 91 octane@ $233/gallon.

 

[djv]

Wow and were pissed here in Wisconsin because it's $173 reg,
$181 mid, 193 for hi test. Yup we better chit or get off the pot soon. These prices can slow things to a crawl. Wonder how many here remember the mid 70's. It was not long after high gas prices we were into very high interest rates.