Can Obama spend us into prosperity?

Terryray

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The money Obama spends he gets from taxing us now, or borrows and then taxes us later--so that's less spending and, hence, less jobs created by consumers.

Therefore these "stimulus" spending ideas for job creation are just a mirage. They only transfer jobs from the productive private sector to the inefficient public one.

As Henry Hazlitt wrote: ?For every public job created by [a] bridge project a private job has been destroyed somewhere else. We can see the men employed on the bridge. We can watch them at work. . . . But there are other things that we do not see, because, alas, they have never been permitted to come into existence. They are the jobs destroyed by the $10 million taken from the taxpayers.?

Obama will get political credit for trying to "stimulate" the economy. Much the same way FDR did, but with much the same economic result: dismal.

FDR's Treasury secretary and close friend, Henry Morganthau, admitted these realities to Congressional Democrats (May 1939):

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

Japan tried it in the 80s, Europe went down this road and only recently turned that around. Various Latin American countries did it and now wised up...Fact is that goverment can't create new permanent jobs or capital investment.

The countries that tax more grow less, ones that tax less grow more.

"In Europe they call it socialism
In the US we call it welfare
Obama calls it change"

Today Obama introduced his economic team and when asked he was vague about how to pay for stimulus package beyond mentioning ?reforms? in Washington. And he refused to put a price tag on it. He talked much more about other stuff, so maybe Summers and Christy Romer have been talking him up some....

AP reports today:

"Obama stepped to the microphones one day after his aides urged the incoming Democratic-controlled Congress to work with unusual speed in passing an economic stimulus package. Some lawmakers have said a measure in the range of $700 billion over two years may be passed, in hopes of achieving the president-elect's goal of securing 2.5 million jobs."

That works out to $280,000 per job. A multiplier of 0.36, while the standard Keynesian models impute a multiplier closer to 2.0.....who knows whats going on besides confusion...
 

rusty

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The money Obama spends he gets from taxing us now, or borrows and then taxes us later--so that's less spending and, hence, less jobs created by consumers.

Therefore these "stimulus" spending ideas for job creation are just a mirage. They only transfer jobs from the productive private sector to the inefficient public one.

As Henry Hazlitt wrote: ?For every public job created by [a] bridge project a private job has been destroyed somewhere else. We can see the men employed on the bridge. We can watch them at work. . . . But there are other things that we do not see, because, alas, they have never been permitted to come into existence. They are the jobs destroyed by the $10 million taken from the taxpayers.?

Obama will get political credit for trying to "stimulate" the economy. Much the same way FDR did, but with much the same economic result: dismal.

FDR's Treasury secretary and close friend, Henry Morganthau, admitted these realities to Congressional Democrats (May 1939):

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

Japan tried it in the 80s, Europe went down this road and only recently turned that around. Various Latin American countries did it and now wised up...Fact is that goverment can't create new permanent jobs or capital investment.

The countries that tax more grow less, ones that tax less grow more.

"In Europe they call it socialism
In the US we call it welfare
Obama calls it change"

Today Obama introduced his economic team and when asked he was vague about how to pay for stimulus package beyond mentioning ?reforms? in Washington. And he refused to put a price tag on it. He talked much more about other stuff, so maybe Summers and Christy Romer have been talking him up some....

AP reports today:

"Obama stepped to the microphones one day after his aides urged the incoming Democratic-controlled Congress to work with unusual speed in passing an economic stimulus package. Some lawmakers have said a measure in the range of $700 billion over two years may be passed, in hopes of achieving the president-elect's goal of securing 2.5 million jobs."

That works out to $280,000 per job. A multiplier of 0.36, while the standard Keynesian models impute a multiplier closer to 2.0.....who knows whats going on besides confusion...

Hes spending money on fixing bridges.
Dont know about you guys,but the Mass. bridges are old ,outdated and unsafe.They are loooong !overdue for repair.

So for starters it needs to be done.
Also im willing to pay my taxpayers money on something worthwhile as ,my moneys going somewhere,lately overseas.

Also gaging what is spent ,and how many jobs are created is just foolish,as money spent will be higher then jobs gained(unless everyone dont mind puttn on a harness and hanging 100 ft. in the air while repairing bridges).

If anything it will fix the bridges,that desp. need to be fixed,2nd jobs gained,3rd get the economy moving,which right now if it were a patient,would be braindead.

Im not blaming one person for the mess were in,but were in a world of shyt and ideas need to be impamented quick.I thing this 2.5 million jobs gained proposel is a no lose plan either way you look at it.
 

Terryray

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I finally found available online a very influential paper by a couple of econometricians who did this empirical study on various types of fiscal stimulus enacted since WWII -- looking at the real world and how various approaches actually worked -- and found (bit to thier surprise) that tax cuts did the most good. This is inline with some other similar research papers.


So it's not surprising many economists, including some you wouldn't expect (like a few even on Obama's team) have written (well, before they came onboard the team) that tax cuts are a better way to go. That gal Obama has as his Council of Economic Advisers, Christina Romer (very fine economist) has even written about how the various spending stimulus in Great Depression did little good and that tax cuts stimulate about 3 times better than spending programs.

And it's hard to get the spending done fast enough, and to time it just right. Almost always comes too late and ends us being countercyclical. And if it's the financial system in trouble causing the problem now anyway, we primarily have to fix that (duh!) and sure don't need the experience of Japan's mistakes from thier financial crisis in 90s to remind us.

so not surprising that Obama has spoken of some tax cuts being in his stimulus program--tho tax cuts are usually percieved as "Republican" measures (maybe because Repubs pay attention to reality and reason more?) but Obama and his advisors no dummies and I've heard them speak of smart tax cuts, like making 15% cap gains permanent, and reducing payroll taxes (that would put cash in the pocket immediately of businesses and workers) offset some of this with smart targeted tax increases, like a greenhouse gas emission tax.
 

StevieD

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It depends on the tax rate at the time of the cuts. When Kennedy and Reagan cut taxes the rates were way out of line. The Bush tax cuts did not work because the rates were already low enough so that they did not offer any incentive. What we need now is to put money in peoples pockets. With unemployment breeding more unemployment the best thing we can do is to put people to work.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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It depends on the tax rate at the time of the cuts. When Kennedy and Reagan cut taxes the rates were way out of line. The Bush tax cuts did not work because the rates were already low enough so that they did not offer any incentive. What we need now is to put money in peoples pockets. With unemployment breeding more unemployment the best thing we can do is to put people to work.

Just 2 questions
Tax cuts were followed by low unemployment--and record tax receipts at same time--
What didn't work?

on putting people to work--
You think the government producing jobs and tax payor footing bill is answer--
--or privite sector producing more jobs and footing bill--and tax payors being recipient of tax revenue produced?
 

StevieD

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Just 2 questions
Tax cuts were followed by low unemployment--and record tax receipts at same time--
What didn't work?

on putting people to work--
You think the government producing jobs and tax payor footing bill is answer--
--or privite sector producing more jobs and footing bill--and tax payors being recipient of tax revenue produced?

What didn't work?????? Not even worth a response. Take a look around.
 

gardenweasel

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The money Obama spends he gets from taxing us now, or borrows and then taxes us later--so that's less spending and, hence, less jobs created by consumers.

Therefore these "stimulus" spending ideas for job creation are just a mirage. They only transfer jobs from the productive private sector to the inefficient public one.

As Henry Hazlitt wrote: ?For every public job created by [a] bridge project a private job has been destroyed somewhere else. We can see the men employed on the bridge. We can watch them at work. . . . But there are other things that we do not see, because, alas, they have never been permitted to come into existence. They are the jobs destroyed by the $10 million taken from the taxpayers.?

Obama will get political credit for trying to "stimulate" the economy. Much the same way FDR did, but with much the same economic result: dismal.

FDR's Treasury secretary and close friend, Henry Morganthau, admitted these realities to Congressional Democrats (May 1939):

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

Japan tried it in the 80s, Europe went down this road and only recently turned that around. Various Latin American countries did it and now wised up...Fact is that goverment can't create new permanent jobs or capital investment.

The countries that tax more grow less, ones that tax less grow more.

"In Europe they call it socialism
In the US we call it welfare
Obama calls it change"

Today Obama introduced his economic team and when asked he was vague about how to pay for stimulus package beyond mentioning ?reforms? in Washington. And he refused to put a price tag on it. He talked much more about other stuff, so maybe Summers and Christy Romer have been talking him up some....

AP reports today:

"Obama stepped to the microphones one day after his aides urged the incoming Democratic-controlled Congress to work with unusual speed in passing an economic stimulus package. Some lawmakers have said a measure in the range of $700 billion over two years may be passed, in hopes of achieving the president-elect's goal of securing 2.5 million jobs."

That works out to $280,000 per job. A multiplier of 0.36, while the standard Keynesian models impute a multiplier closer to 2.0.....who knows whats going on besides confusion...

there we go again with the facts....always the darn facts...:nono:

does make you feel like you`re in vegas...you`re deep in the hole...what do you do?....you double down,of course...:banghead:

/and a lee marvin quote to boot?.....doesn`t get any better`n that...:yup

well said..
 

bryanz

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Just 2 questions
Tax cuts were followed by low unemployment--and record tax receipts at same time--
What didn't work?

on putting people to work--
You think the government producing jobs and tax payor footing bill is answer--
--or privite sector producing more jobs and footing bill--and tax payors being recipient of tax revenue produced?

EVEN CARTER, THAT'S JIMMY .... HAD RECORD TAX RECEIPTS AT THE TIME... look it up... every president has had record tax receipts... This tax receipt FALLACY WAS EXPOSED, right here in this forum.http://images.google.com/imgres?img...tax+cuts+%3D+more+tax+revenue&um=1&hl=en&sa=G
 
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Chadman

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Yeah, Wayne, how is that tax-cut low-unemployment thing working out for America now, as your boy is leaving office with his economic tail between his legs?

7.2%? You are always attempting to compare unemployment figures, and now you bring it up again, I figure it's worth noting - the worst in 16 years, and probably is headed higher.

Of course, none of that could be attributed to Bush, right?
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Mr B will get to you in morning-when I have more time--

Chad Yours is simple enough.
Explain what the financial collapse has got to do with employment-and tax receipts prior?

I gave you crdeit for being more intelligent than that--but if want to use the liberal grading method-
(the time period you prefer vs overall time period)-I expect you to do the same on O--and when employment figures come in for January we'll be seeing your remark--O comes in office with tail between his legs and has highest unemployment since 93 (thats Clinton -I believe you failed to make that disitntion above--and no finacial collapse then I don't believe)

Now since you chosen to join the absurb--time for you to join in and add the #'s up for us and report back.

Here you go--will you be the 1st to actual respond or take the kurby route like the rest.
Nov rates were 6.7 and Dec just out @ 7.2

http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343671&page=2&highlight=calculator

add em up and tell us the FACTS on your economical wizard vs the worse pres since great depression. We'll be waiting. :)
 

Chadman

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Was merely making a simple (for some) observation that you have always commented on how "good" unemployment numbers have been under the Bush administration, and at the end of his terms of office, after full measure of his programs and progress can be measured, the unemployment numbers are dramatically higher, and climbing. I would think even the most ardent supporter of his policies would admit that his policies and people he put in positions to affect the financial world we live in are at least partially responsible for that.

Of course, you won't do that, but that's nothing new. Clinton is responsible for the numbers you bring up, but not Bush. Right...I get it.

And there certainly is a big difference in my opinion, and I note has always been a big difference in your opinion, about when someone takes office and what they are responsible for. According to you, Bush had to endure the legacy and numbers Clinton left him with when he took office (the arguable "recession" Clinton was responsible for), and now I am supposed to hold Obama to the very first month numbers after Bush? Don't see you calling this a recession, when it's under Bush's watch, of course.

Ummm...okay.
 

Chadman

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I'm not really sure what your last comment was referring to with me, Wayne. Who is my "economic wizard", and who is the "worst president since the great depression?"

Actually, never mind about the last part. Other than perhaps Carter, I think most now know who you meant by the last description. Just not sure who my economic wizard is, especially in my one comment above, which dealt only with Bush and his current unemployment rate.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Was merely making a simple (for some) observation that you have always commented on how "good" unemployment numbers have been under the Bush administration, and at the end of his terms of office, after full measure of his programs and progress can be measured, the unemployment numbers are dramatically higher, and climbing. I would think even the most ardent supporter of his policies would admit that his policies and people he put in positions to affect the financial world we live in are at least partially responsible for that.

Of course, you won't do that, but that's nothing new. Clinton is responsible for the numbers you bring up, but not Bush. Right...I get it.

And there certainly is a big difference in my opinion, and I note has always been a big difference in your opinion, about when someone takes office and what they are responsible for. According to you, Bush had to endure the legacy and numbers Clinton left him with when he took office (the arguable "recession" Clinton was responsible for), and now I am supposed to hold Obama to the very first month numbers after Bush? Don't see you calling this a recession, when it's under Bush's watch, of course.

Ummm...okay.

Now your sounding like the old logical Chad I've always known. :)

I think we've cleared up one point since we have the final #'s in----the employment records for Bill and GW for their 8 years were tit for tat--however the media has portrayed an entirely diff perspective to those that blinding take press leanings at face value.
Bill was certainly dealt tough had of coming into office in recession-hence his the bad #'s in his 1st 3 years--was it anything he was responsible for--absolutely not,but his road to recovery did not have the travestries of disaters to overcome that we've had last 8 years-therefore considering the #'s being equal I believe GW certainly has got bad beat in comparison.

--and speaking of media bias and perception and spinning #'s--can someone help with this--I am having hard time adding 1+1 and getting 2 out of this recent drumbeat.

"during the Clinton Administration 21 million new jobs were created. Under GW's watch: 3 million. "

Here my problem--

I know
A: that Bill/GW employment #'s were almost identicle during their 8 years.
B: considering population increase-plus increase in illegals not being counted--there were more people employed in last 8 years than preceding 8 to keep employment average equal.

Yet we are told Bill created 7 times as many jobs?
Can someone explain to me the creative accounting on this one.
:0corn
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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EVEN CARTER, THAT'S JIMMY .... HAD RECORD TAX RECEIPTS AT THE TIME... look it up... every president has had record tax receipts... This tax receipt FALLACY WAS EXPOSED, right here in this forum.http://images.google.com/imgres?img...tax+cuts+%3D+more+tax+revenue&um=1&hl=en&sa=G

Good Morning Mr B--always a pleasure debating with you. Lets see what we can expose.
1st your link--you might note in your "google" link that article originates from blogger on at&t blog site by name of rdavis2--love these anonomous posters
Bio--"information not available"
http://www.djbooth.net/index/member/35419/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll give you benefit of doubt and we'll say your intent was graph of tax revenue contained--didn't take time to check it's source cause can't tell anything by squiggly lines in it anyway so went to the "actual" #'s instead.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

tax revenues- in billions
2000> 2,025
2001> 1,991
2002>1,853
2003>1,782
2004>1,880
2005>2,153
2006>2,407
2007>2,568

I have highlighted 2003 because that was year of
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Would you like some quotes from Clinton-Dashle-Pelosi ect on how the bill would lead to economic disaster? I have some stored next to my other quotes from Dems on how this economy was worse since great depression and if they got majority in 06 how things would change. ;)

So Mr B what have we "exposed" here? :)

some other interesting things I found on chart.

Appears GW ran surplus also in his 1st year--until 911 and wars that followed

--and in 07--after your leaders proclaimed (we'd lost the war)--deficit was less (-162)despite fighting 2 wars (and surge that didn't work) than 3 of clinton deficit years (-255 -203 -164)
Any comments?

Appreciate your bringing up topic-- as now we have issue of employment and tax cuts contained in one thread--would you like to discuss inflation or interest rates next? :)
 
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bryanz

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Good Morning Mr B--always a pleasure debating with you. Lets see what we can expose.
1st your link--you might note in your "google" link that article originates from blogger on at&t blog site by name of rdavis2--love these anonomous posters
Bio--"information not available"
http://www.djbooth.net/index/member/35419/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll give you benefit of doubt and we'll say your intent was graph of tax revenue contained--didn't take time to check it's source cause can't tell anything by squiggly lines in it anyway so went to the "actual" #'s instead.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

tax revenues- in billions
2000> 2,025
2001> 1,991
2002>1,853
2003>1,782
2004>1,880
2005>2,153
2006>2,407
2007>2,568

I have highlighted 2003 because that was year of
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Would you like some quotes from Clinton-Dashle-Pelosi ect on how the bill would lead to economic disaster? I have some stored next to my other quotes from Dems on how this economy was worse since great depression and if they got majority in 06 how things would change. ;)

So Mr B what have we "exposed" here? :)

some other interesting things I found on chart.

Appears GW ran surplus also in his 1st year--until 911 and wars that followed

--and in 07--after your leaders proclaimed (we'd lost the war)--deficit was less (-162)despite fighting 2 wars (and surge that didn't work) than 3 of clinton deficit years (-255 -203 -164)
Any comments?

Appreciate your bringing up topic-- as now we have issue of employment and tax cuts contained in one thread--would you like to discuss inflation or interest rates next? :)

do you really want to discuss inflation & rates ? look around, the verdict is in... do you still beilieve the #'s ??? http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337379...what more do you need than this thread ? You can stand on your head & SPIN ALL YOU WANT.... If you go back in MJ Time, I have been closer to the reality that faces the American People and the World .
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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do you really want to discuss inflation & rates ? look around, the verdict is in... do you still beilieve the #'s ??? http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337379...what more do you need than this thread ? You can stand on your head & SPIN ALL YOU WANT.... If you go back in MJ Time, I have been closer to the reality that faces the American People and the World .

We'll we appears we got the 1st 2 issues resolved. :SIB

Now to your link above per inflation. I see once again you quoted every liberal blog you could find--without putting up any facts (#'s) No wonder no responded to it as it was a thread involving 25 responses between you djv and stevie.

Now once again lets get to "the facts"
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet

--add the #s and report back to us
:0corn

--and the tip for today --in the future if you'd look up the #'s 1st instead of taking liberal blogs opinions at face value you'd save a lot of time.

--or if you wish to persist you could save a lot of bandwith and time by simple posting this link.
--turn up volumn please :)

http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Sheep_Sounds.aspx
 

bryanz

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Aug 8, 2001
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Good Morning Mr B--always a pleasure debating with you. Lets see what we can expose.
1st your link--you might note in your "google" link that article originates from blogger on at&t blog site by name of rdavis2--love these anonomous posters
Bio--"information not available"
http://www.djbooth.net/index/member/35419/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll give you benefit of doubt and we'll say your intent was graph of tax revenue contained--didn't take time to check it's source cause can't tell anything by squiggly lines in it anyway so went to the "actual" #'s instead.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

tax revenues- in billions
2000> 2,025
2001> 1,991
2002>1,853
2003>1,782
2004>1,880
2005>2,153
2006>2,407
2007>2,568

I have highlighted 2003 because that was year of
Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003
Would you like some quotes from Clinton-Dashle-Pelosi ect on how the bill would lead to economic disaster? I have some stored next to my other quotes from Dems on how this economy was worse since great depression and if they got majority in 06 how things would change. ;)

So Mr B what have we "exposed" here? :)

some other interesting things I found on chart.

Appears GW ran surplus also in his 1st year--until 911 and wars that followed

--and in 07--after your leaders proclaimed (we'd lost the war)--deficit was less (-162)despite fighting 2 wars (and surge that didn't work) than 3 of clinton deficit years (-255 -203 -164)
Any comments?

Appreciate your bringing up topic-- as now we have issue of employment and tax cuts contained in one thread--would you like to discuss inflation or interest rates next? :)

I guess we should have Barb put a star on the fridge for the gw surplus before his crew allowed 911 on their watch and then played right into the hearts of bin landen & every anti American force by going to war on the ground in Iraq. Maybe the first mommy should put a smile next to that gold star. YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS .....THE SURGE DIDN'T WORK..... WHAT DID WE WIN ? WHAT DID WE GAIN ? The surge made a bad tactical decision to go to war with the rummy plan better BUT the way this administration USED OUR MILITARY WAS NEGLIGENT, IF NOT CRIMINAL & flat out RECKLESS. The surge was an all in move from a desperate president... What did bush have to lose at the inception of the surge but more great Americans ? Every, if not most calculations leading up to the war and the surge were wrong... what came first, the chicken or the egg... OR the greatest American Military fuck up or the surge ? time to turn the page .....
 
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