Carlos Quentin
- Thread starter Cie
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Disagree - much of our punishment in society varies based on the result of the individual's action:
You shoot someone - they live, the penalty is less than if they die.
You punch someone - they live, no big deal, they die, you are in jail likely.
You speed 10 miles over, you get a ticket. 50 MPH over the limit, you get the pokey.
You HAVE to look at the result of the actions to determine the penalty. Otherwise wouldn't you charge every guy that punches a guy in the nose with murder, even if all he got was a bloody nose?
Quentin wasn't going out there to shake Grienke's hand.. he intended on putting some hurt on Grienke, and he did. Now he should pay the consequence. I still think 60 games, without pay, is about right.
Heck, if he gets like 5 games, and you are Matt Kemp - well, Kemp should go out and take down Matt Cain and Bumgarner - if you can knock those guys out for a month, but Kemp only loses 5 games, that is an outstanding tradeoff for LA.
Anything less than 60 for Quentin sets a bad example, and will just encourage more of this vigiliantism. But I know Quentin won't get more than 7 or 8 - the damn players union ....
You have to look at the intent/motive as well. I just don't think there was intent to put Grienke out for 6 weeks, it was an unintended consequence of a charge the mound situation.
Nor do I think there is an example that needs to be set, as we have yet to sniff even a hint of a trend of vigilantism.
I'm sure they will be a little tougher on him because of the injury, but I don't see it being even close to 60 games.
Just crazy all around, and I feel bad for Greinke, but one thing's for sure....
Sure glad I don't have either in the pool! HAHA!
Peace!
Sure glad I don't have either in the pool! HAHA!
Peace!
I have no clue what he meant to do. I do know it was a 3-2 count in a 1 run game. I also know his catcher sat up outside and Greinke went back up and in. We also have no idea what was said after the pitch and what's been said before.
If you don't want a broken collar bone then don't play "bull in the ring" with someone your giving up 40 pounds to:shrug:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodge...os-quentin-matt-kemp-20130412,0,7314725.story
http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodge...os-quentin-matt-kemp-20130412,0,7314725.story
Just curious, but do you feel the same way about when a guy punches a guy, the guy dies, but he didn't mean to kill him, just punch him, that it should just be simple assault? I'm guessing so...
Quentin is a thug, he wanted to hurt Grienke (he is a lithe man, at best) and he did - likely taking the Dodger season with him.
Just like I think if a guy punches someone and he dies and then gets convicted of manslaughter, I think Quentin should get serious time (60) for this.
And I'm no Dodger fan, that is for sure. Just a baseball fan.
The sorry answer to all of this is it obviously doesn't matter what we think, or even what the heads of MLB think. This is effectively decided by the union - and they will appeal ANY penalty handed down anyway.
Let's just hope that guys like Kemp can get even - preferably in a year that the Padres are actually contending (although I'm sure Kemp will long be retired by then! :mj07: )
I know what Tony LaRussa would do in this situation... hopefully Mattingly is old school and will do the same (and I kinda think he is old school).
Comparing someone dying from a punch to a hitter charging the mound and breaking a guys collar bone is a little silly.
But if we really wanted to be silly then to be honest nothing would happen to the guy if he hit someone and they died. The reason, because it can be claimed self defense. Quentin was hit first and intent can't be proved on this board even though a bunch of guys on here think they know why and what happened.
Well I seperate the criminal justice system from the Selig/MLB Union justice system. Different worlds.
But if I was pressed to think about it, then yes a guy who punches someone who happens to fall down and die probably shouldn't go to jail for LIFE. I think we are nuanced enough as a society to factor both result and intent into our justice.
This situation is a mess, and nobody is likely to be happy with whatever they do.
Mags - If you throw a punch in baseball you don't go to jail you get suspended.
I don't want to argue what happens in real life, I want to discuss baseball suspensions which are governed by these rules - http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf
Stop comparing the punishment of assault with a fight in baseball.
Hell Quentin charged the mound but he still gets awarded first base, his replacement has to run for him.
And Kemp charging the mound after getting hit is fine. If he goes out there and charges the mound without getting hit, his punishment should be worse than Quentin's in my opinion.
I don't want to argue what happens in real life, I want to discuss baseball suspensions which are governed by these rules - http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf
Stop comparing the punishment of assault with a fight in baseball.
Hell Quentin charged the mound but he still gets awarded first base, his replacement has to run for him.
And Kemp charging the mound after getting hit is fine. If he goes out there and charges the mound without getting hit, his punishment should be worse than Quentin's in my opinion.
That is an interesting take. So, getting hit makes charging the mound legitimate? Even if getting hit is unintentional (like every pundit says was obvious last night)? What if they guy throws it 5 feet behind you, but misses? I've seen guys charge the mound in that instance also.
All I'm saying is that the penalty should bear a relationship to the outcome - which seems fair.
If nobody got hurt, then 10 game suspension. A guy that loses 2 months, then 60 games. Lose a month, then 30 games.
You'd have a lot less shenanigans. Quentin wasn't provoked. It was an unprovoked attack by a meathead. He wasn't in danger - he wasn't doing self defense - he could walk to 1st base without anyone hurting him.
I just feel bad for Dodger fans, and of course, Grienke and his family. This should have never happened.
Greinke is a cerebral, guy, it wouldn't shock me for him to plan to hit but wait until he had a count like that as a counter-argument. Not the first time he's done something like that.
And I'm not calling him a dirty player. He just does odd things, once threw and ephus pitch in a game. I'll always have a man crush on the guy, but knowing his past with Quentin, hard not to think there was some intent there.
Some good news - MLB just announced a 8 game suspension for Carlos Carrasco for throwing at a hitter and missing him (nobody was hurt).
This should set up for a much longer suspension for Quentin, I hope.
This should set up for a much longer suspension for Quentin, I hope.
Mags, I think part of why I don't have a problem with guys charging the mound is because I'm an AL guy and watch AL games. I know the NL is different because pitchers have to hit so maybe that sways how we feel about it.
I've watched a lot of Greinke over the years and seen him live several times. IMO he meant to hit the guy. I don't care if it was a 1 run game or not. Greinke could put 1 guy on base every inning for the Pads and they're not going to score on him. He was ON last night. Even on an average night he has total control. When he's "on" he just doesn't miss. Do I think Carlos should have charged the mound? No but I don't know everything that goes along with it. I don't know has been said before and I surely don't know what was said after he hit Carlos that set him off.
When you're as good as Greinke is you can nail who you want and it not cost your team. Last night he did it but now it's going to cost his team because Carlos reacted. I tell my kids all of the time, you can make your own decisions but every decision and action has a consequence. Some are good and some are bad. Last night Greinkes decision was a bad one.
I've watched a lot of Greinke over the years and seen him live several times. IMO he meant to hit the guy. I don't care if it was a 1 run game or not. Greinke could put 1 guy on base every inning for the Pads and they're not going to score on him. He was ON last night. Even on an average night he has total control. When he's "on" he just doesn't miss. Do I think Carlos should have charged the mound? No but I don't know everything that goes along with it. I don't know has been said before and I surely don't know what was said after he hit Carlos that set him off.
When you're as good as Greinke is you can nail who you want and it not cost your team. Last night he did it but now it's going to cost his team because Carlos reacted. I tell my kids all of the time, you can make your own decisions but every decision and action has a consequence. Some are good and some are bad. Last night Greinkes decision was a bad one.
LOL I've read about that pitch. I've always wanted to see it live. Isn't it around 50something MPH?
Yeah, not sure what that one was clocked at, but it was in his first couple of years with KC. If I remember right as soon as he got the ball from the catcher he threw it back like a soft toss, kind of like he thought it was scuffed and wanted a new ball. I don't even think it went for a strike, but was great that he tried that.
Layinwood - I'll be the first to admit, Grienke's got a lot of cocky in him, after watching him with the Brewers for a year and half. He knows he's good, and it shows in his demeanor - and he is way cocky.
I don't think he tried to hit him though. He does have a 2 seamer (I think) - anyway, he does have a pitch that runs inside to righties... and it got inside. He's a guy that likes to pitch deep in games. Think about it - if he really wanted to hit Quentin, would he have waited until the count was 3-2, burning a total of 6 pitches towards his pitch count (counting the HDP), or would he do it on the 1st pitch.
This "history" they had is BS too - Grienke hit him twice in Quentin's career? Twice out of like 1000 HBP for Quentin?
It doesn't matter if Grienke called him a SOB or not (sticks and stones). I just don't think Grienke did anything wrong and Quentin was a thug. Quentin wanted to put some hurt on Grienke (othewise he wouldn't charge the mound) and he did. Now he needs to pay the consequence.
You make a good point though - the NL is different. I could see in the AL IF a guy threw at you, you'd have no choice but to charge the mound to get back at him. In the NL, pitchers hit, which is a much more effective way (and a more fair way) to get even - just plunk Grienke when he hits if you really think it was intentional.
But Padre players were quoted as knowing it wasn't intentional, so they would have not thrown at Grienke anyway. Their team is probably pissed at Quentin and his behavior... which they will take care of in the SD clubhouse.
