chilly reception for debate

DOGS THAT BARK

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Chilly reception for debate offer

Gore says no thanks--his only option too avoid total embarrassment--ironically the liberal entities will probabaly reward him with Nobel Peace pride for his cowardice--ala jimmy carter.

October 5, 2007
STEVE HUNTLEY shuntley@suntimes.com
Seven hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money to spend to try to get someone to talk to you and not get an answer.

That's how much the Heartland Institute, a Chicago-based libertarian think tank, has forked over in six months for advertisements in national newspapers trying to persuade Al Gore to debate one of its experts on global warming issues. "We have tried, repeatedly, to contact Gore directly, with registered letters and calls to his office, and have never received a reply," says Joseph Bast, Heartland president.

A spokeswoman for Gore told me by e-mail that Heartland is an oil-company-funded group that denies that global warming is real and caused by human activities.

"The debate has shifted to how to solve the climate crisis, not if there is one," said Kalee Kreider. "It does not make sense for him to engage in a dialogue with them at this time."

The issue is a bit more complicated than that. What Bast wants is for Gore to debate one of three authorities who dispute the former vice president's assertion that global warming is a crisis that requires an immediate, hugely expensive response potentially damaging to the U.S. and world economies.

One of the Heartland experts is Dennis Avery, an economist, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and co-author, with Fred Singer, professor emeritus of environmental science at the University of Virginia, of the book Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1,500 Years. As you might guess from that title, Avery sees global warming as a natural phenomenon in which "there may be a human factor but if so it's small." He describes the warming as "moderate" and says there's been no warming since 1998. "Where's the crisis?"

When you talk with Avery, he cites numbers on carbon dioxide and temperature change and dates of previous warming periods, such as during Roman and medieval times. A layman like me soon finds himself in deep water, and you know someone on the other side of the issue will cite other sources, such as a U.N. panel on climate change that says most of the warming since the mid-20th century is likely due to greenhouse gases.

But the point is that Gore and his movie "An Inconvenient Truth" aren't the last word. In March, the New York Times reported that while they praise Gore for raising awareness about warming, a number of scientists see exaggerations and errors in some of his assertions. "They are alarmed, some say, at what they call his alarmism," the Times wrote. For example, Gore forecasts sea levels rising up to 20 feet, flooding parts of New York and Florida. But the U.N. panel's actual estimate is that seas will rise 7 to 23 inches in this century.

As for the Gore camp's statement about Exxon funding, Bast says those contributions are too little to control Heartland policy and amount to "far less than what Heartland spends speaking out on climate change."

The Heartland case is not the first time Gore has ducked a forum. Earlier this year he canceled an interview with Denmark's largest newspaper when he learned it would include questions from Bjorn Lomborg, respected author of The Skeptical Environmentalist. "Gore's sermon is not one that will stand scrutiny," says Christopher C. Horner, another one of Heartland's debate candidates, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming and Environmentalism.

Bast says the ad campaign will continue until March, costing a total of $1.2 million. But he won't get a debate from Gore. Still, Heartland's effort serves the worthy purpose to spotlighting the need for an informed discussion on the severity of global warming and how best to deal with it, by trying to halt it or adapt to it. Gore offers a worst-case scenario of unmitigated disaster. If he's wrong about rising sea levels, what else is he wrong about?
+++++++++++++

--and

CNN Meteorologist: ?Definitely Some Inaccuracies? in Gore Film
By Paul Detrick | October 4, 2007 - 11:35 ET
CNN Meteorologist Rob Marciano clapped his hands and exclaimed, "Finally," in response to a report that a British judge might ban the movie "An Inconvenient Truth" from UK schools because, according to "American Morning," "it is politically biased and contains scientific inaccuracies."
 

JCDunkDogs

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Gore should have given the real reason he refuses to show up for a debate with these folks...he is too busy making improvements to his proudest achievement: inventing the internet.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Really or is it he or anyone else has no answers -
--maybe you can find anyone or any scientific entity that disprove article below--
I'll be waiting ;)

The global warming stuff reminds me of the year2000--sky is falling crowd.


Junk Science: Global Warming?s Trillion-Dollar Turkey
Thursday, October 04, 2007

By Steven Milloy

A trillion dollars doesn?t buy what it used to ? at least when it comes to global warming, according to a new analysis from the Environmental Protection Agency.

Last July, this column reported that the latest global warming bill ? the Low Carbon Economy Act of 2007, introduced by Sens. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M. and Arlen Specter, R-Pa. ? would cost taxpayers more than $1 trillion in its first 10 years and untold trillions of dollars in subsequent decades.

This week, the EPA sent its analysis of the bill?s impact on climate to Bingaman and Specter. Now we can see what we?d get for our money, and we may as well just build a giant bonfire with the cash and enjoy toasting marshmallows over it.

For reference purposes, the current level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is about 380 parts per million. The EPA estimates that if no action is taken to curb CO2 emissions, the atmospheric concentration of CO2 would be 718 ppm by 2095.

If the Bingaman-Specter bill were implemented, however, the EPA estimates that CO2 levels would be 695 ppm ? a whopping reduction of 23 ppm.

The EPA also estimated that if all countries ? including China, India, Brazil and other developing nations ? curb CO2 emissions, the atmospheric concentration of CO2 would be 491 ppm in 2095, including the above-mentioned 23 ppm reduction from the implementation of the Bingaman-Specter bill.

So it appears that no matter how you slice it, Bingaman-Specter is worth a 23 ppm-reduction in atmospheric CO2 by 2095. But what are the climatic implications of this reduction in terms of global temperature? After all, we are talking about global warming.

Although the EPA didn?t pursue its analysis that far, figuring out the implications are readily doable using the assumptions and formulas of the United Nations? Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Under the no-action scenario (718-to-695 ppm), the IPCC formulas indicate that the multitrillion-dollar Bingaman-Specter bill might reduce average global temperature by 0.13 degrees Celsius.

Under the maximum regulation scenario (514-to-491 ppm), Bingaman-Specter might reduce average global temperature by 0.18 degrees Celsius. Actual temperature reductions are likely to be less since these estimates rely on the IPCC?s alarmist-friendly assumptions and formulas.

The question, then, becomes this: Is it really worth trillions of taxpayer dollars over 90 years to perhaps reduce global temperatures by 0.13-0.18 degrees Celsius? If you can?t answer that question, consider this.

Under the no-action scenario, average global temperature might be 1.2 degrees Celsius higher in 2095 than it is today, once again using conservative IPCC assumptions and formulas. Under the maximum-regulation scenario, average global temperature might be 1.03 degrees Celsius higher than today. (For reference purposes, the estimated total increase in average global temperature for the 20th century was about 0.50 degrees Celsius.)

So what?s the difference in mean global temperature between the no-action scenario and the maximum-regulation scenario? Could it be a whopping 0.17 degrees Centigrade? Is that what global warming hysteria is all about?

The Bingaman-Specter bill, then, would cost taxpayers trillions of dollars and produce virtually nothing in terms of temperature outcome. But the pain of Bingaman-Specter doesn?t stop with trillions of taxpayer dollars. The heart of the Bingaman-Specter bill is a so-called cap-and-trade system in which CO2 emission limits (caps) would be decreed and certain businesses and other special interest group emitters (such as farmers and states) would be given permits to emit CO2.

Emitters that have extra permits could sell them in the open market to emitters that weren?t lucky enough to get free permits and that need permits. Extra permits, as such, are essentially free money.

Proponents of the cap-and-trade scheme ? generally speaking, conniving environmentalists who want to appear to be business-friendly and special interest emitters who want to feed at the taxpayer trough ? portray it as a "market-based" approach to addressing global warming concerns.

Not only is cap-and-trade not "market-based," highly respected economists, including former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, Arthur Laffer and Harvard University?s Greg Mankiw, say cap-and-trade will cause significant economic harm.

In a recent paper sponsored by the Free Enterprise Education Institute, a think tank with which I am affiliated, Laffer said that a cap-and-trade scheme would act as a constraint on the energy supply ? much like the 1970s-era Arab oil embargoes and other energy crises. He estimates that cap-and-trade would shrink the U.S. economy by 5.2 percent and reduce family income by $10,800 by 2020.

So the Bingaman-Specter bill not only would waste taxpayer money, but it would harm economic growth and reduce family income ? all without affecting global temperature in any sort of meaningful or even detectable way.

Although the EPA acknowledged, "Since the variation in cumulative global greenhouse gas emissions are small under [Bingaman-Specter], the variation in the resulting CO2 concentrations are small," this only hints at the bill?s futility.

There can be little doubt as to why the EPA failed to carry through the ultimate implications of the 23 ppm impact of Bingaman-Specter. The agency would have "officially" exposed the bill and global warming alarmism as utterly absurd.

Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and DemandDebate.com. He is a junk science expert, and advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
on a more personal note Gary if you notice where you live in Columbus Ohio--it is like the rest of the U.S. with highest temps in the 1930's or 50's and few or none in the 2000's ;)
http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USOH0212_f.html

Records and Averages
View: English | Metric
Daily Records and Averages at weather.com Month Avg. High Avg. Low Avg. Precip. Rec. High Rec. Low
January 36.0? F 20.0? F 2.56 in 73.0?
(01/25/1950)
-28.0? F
(01/19/1994)

February 41.0? F 23.0? F 2.07 in 74.0?
(02/11/1999)
-20.0? F
(02/03/1951)

March 53.0? F 32.0? F 3.00 in 83.0?
(03/31/1986)
-3.0? F
(03/08/1960)

April 64.0? F 40.0? F 3.65 in 90.0?
(04/27/1990)
17.0? F
(04/05/1995)

May 74.0? F 51.0? F 4.31 in 94.0?
(05/18/1962)
26.0? F
(05/10/1966)

June 82.0? F 60.0? F 4.01 in 100.0?
(06/25/1988)
37.0? F
(06/11/1972)

July 86.0? F 64.0? F 4.39 in 102.0?
(07/14/1954)
45.0? F
(07/04/1996)

August 84.0? F 62.0? F 4.31 in 100.0?
(08/20/1983)
38.0? F
(08/29/1986)

September 78.0? F 55.0? F 2.93 in 98.0?
(09/03/1953)
28.0? F
(09/23/1995)

October 67.0? F 43.0? F 2.53 in 88.0?
(10/05/1951)
17.0? F
(10/21/1952)

November 53.0? F 34.0? F 3.30 in 80.0?
(11/01/1950)
-7.0? F
(11/30/1958)

December 41.0? F 25.0? F 2.97 in 76.0?
(12/03/1982)
-21.0? F
(12/22/1989)

I can lead you to water but can't make you drink my friend :)
 

Jabberwocky

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Thanks for the good references Reds. Don't waste your time with DTB and global warming. If someone disputes that global warming is happening at this point, they are beyond reasoning with. He really thinks that its an open debate and has no idea that he is being manipulated by the oil industry. Its sad, but there will always be flat earthers about that have to be dragged into reality kicking and screaming.
 

The Sponge

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Thanks for the good references Reds. Don't waste your time with DTB and global warming. If someone disputes that global warming is happening at this point, they are beyond reasoning with. He really thinks that its an open debate and has no idea that he is being manipulated by the oil industry. Its sad, but there will always be flat earthers about that have to be dragged into reality kicking and screaming.

What is really sad is all these countries are doing something about global warming. Could they all be wrong and DTB and the oil companies are right? Sheese its October here and nobody is covering their pools:mj07:
 

redsfann

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Thanks for the good references Reds. Don't waste your time with DTB and global warming. If someone disputes that global warming is happening at this point, they are beyond reasoning with. He really thinks that its an open debate and has no idea that he is being manipulated by the oil industry. Its sad, but there will always be flat earthers about that have to be dragged into reality kicking and screaming.

You are most welcome, Jabberwocky. Quite easy refuting DTB and his posts, thats why I rarely waste my time doing so. Besides, you and Chadman and a few others do a fine job. Carry on. :D
 

ImFeklhr

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Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and DemandDebate.com. He is a junk science expert, and advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Competitive Enterprise Institute?? What a joke...


http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...itive_Enterprise_Institute_And_Global_Warming

About a year ago, I heard this guy on a Skeptics podcast I listen to. Keep in mind this is a very apolitical show, and only nails Bush because of his anti-science stuff (intelligent design etc.). In fact at least one of the 4 main panelists is a Republican.

Anyway, when Malloy appeared on the show to talk about global warming, he came off as a complete tool. This is in comparison to the scientists and academics who speak dispassionately, and logically on various matters (only occasionally global warming). And this is not a rabidly pro-global warming group. This was their first guest that ever really sounded like a shill. With prepared sound-bytes and zingers, but not much insight.

This all pained me quite a bit because of my Libertarian allegiances (he's one)... and I do agree with some of his other skeptical/junkscience viewpoints.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I see plenty yada yada yada --but again not one article disputing claims or attempt to prove the contrary.

The fact of the matter whether regardless of source--you have two elements--one offering debate and cash for proof--the other side hiding under the desk.

Find me just one article from any scientific source that provides any proof and doesn't use the terms "may" "could be result" ect.

Now Gary uou have two others on your team Redsfan and Jabbers to help you provide proof to the contrary.

so far you been strong on opinions but nomattemps of facts--I'll be waiting?

each time I bump this thread to remind each of you I'm still waiting for your proof--I'll add some to the contrary--

alarmist global warming claims melt under scientific scrutiny
http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/450392,CST-EDT-REF30b.article

June 30, 2007
BY JAMES M. TAYLOR
In his new book, The Assault on Reason, Al Gore pleads, "We must stop tolerating the rejection and distortion of science. We must insist on an end to the cynical use of pseudo-studies known to be false for the purpose of intentionally clouding the public's ability to discern the truth." Gore repeatedly asks that science and reason displace cynical political posturing as the central focus of public discourse.
If Gore really means what he writes, he has an opportunity to make a difference by leading by example on the issue of global warming.

A cooperative and productive discussion of global warming must be open and honest regarding the science. Global warming threats ought to be studied and mitigated, and they should not be deliberately exaggerated as a means of building support for a desired political position.

Many of the assertions Gore makes in his movie, ''An Inconvenient Truth,'' have been refuted by science, both before and after he made them. Gore can show sincerity in his plea for scientific honesty by publicly acknowledging where science has rebutted his claims.

For example, Gore claims that Himalayan glaciers are shrinking and global warming is to blame. Yet the September 2006 issue of the American Meteorological Society's Journal of Climate reported, "Glaciers are growing in the Himalayan Mountains, confounding global warming alarmists who recently claimed the glaciers were shrinking and that global warming was to blame."

Gore claims the snowcap atop Africa's Mt. Kilimanjaro is shrinking and that global warming is to blame. Yet according to the November 23, 2003, issue of Nature magazine, "Although it's tempting to blame the ice loss on global warming, researchers think that deforestation of the mountain's foothills is the more likely culprit. Without the forests' humidity, previously moisture-laden winds blew dry. No longer replenished with water, the ice is evaporating in the strong equatorial sunshine."

Gore claims global warming is causing more tornadoes. Yet the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change stated in February that there has been no scientific link established between global warming and tornadoes.

Gore claims global warming is causing more frequent and severe hurricanes. However, hurricane expert Chris Landsea published a study on May 1 documenting that hurricane activity is no higher now than in decades past. Hurricane expert William Gray reported just a few days earlier, on April 27, that the number of major hurricanes making landfall on the U.S. Atlantic coast has declined in the past 40 years. Hurricane scientists reported in the April 18 Geophysical Research Letters that global warming enhances wind shear, which will prevent a significant increase in future hurricane activity.

Gore claims global warming is causing an expansion of African deserts. However, the Sept. 16, 2002, issue of New Scientist reports, "Africa's deserts are in 'spectacular' retreat . . . making farming viable again in what were some of the most arid parts of Africa."

Gore argues Greenland is in rapid meltdown, and that this threatens to raise sea levels by 20 feet. But according to a 2005 study in the Journal of Glaciology, "the Greenland ice sheet is thinning at the margins and growing inland, with a small overall mass gain." In late 2006, researchers at the Danish Meteorological Institute reported that the past two decades were the coldest for Greenland since the 1910s.

Gore claims the Antarctic ice sheet is melting because of global warming. Yet the Jan. 14, 2002, issue of Nature magazine reported Antarctica as a whole has been dramatically cooling for decades. More recently, scientists reported in the September 2006 issue of the British journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Series A: Mathematical, Physical, and Engineering Sciences, that satellite measurements of the Antarctic ice sheet showed significant growth between 1992 and 2003. And the U.N. Climate Change panel reported in February 2007 that Antarctica is unlikely to lose any ice mass during the remainder of the century.

Each of these cases provides an opportunity for Gore to lead by example in his call for an end to the distortion of science. Will he rise to the occasion? Only time will tell.
 

BobbyBlueChip

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What exactly do you want refuted, Dogs? That Global warming is in fact happening? That it's bad? or that it was man made?

Also, Heartland's not offering Al Gore $700,000 to debate, it's just they've spent that money advertising. Looks like it's a good campaign.
 

Chadman

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Let me preface this by saying I have not read this thread thoroughly nor jumped to the links provided, but...

I think the thing that jumps out at me the most about this thread is that Wayne is doggedly looking for someone to disprove an article by a source that he props up as having value - and then doggedly expects people to disprove it because it is some kind of gleaming example of disproof. How many times have people posted an article on this site only to have the credibility and motivation of the source attacked with no mention of the content? Countless times, to be sure. So, before I talk about the issue at hand - which I usually will do, no matter the source - I just thought that point of reference should be made. Let's keep an eye out for staying on the message from now on, not living in the past, and shooting the messenger, eh guys? :142smilie

Lord knows, all those "scientific" reports of non-global warming have never received any funding from energy- and oil-related interests, have they?
 

The Sponge

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If only dogs could get over his obsession with Al Gore and start worrying about the polar ice caps that are melting maybe we could whip this global warming fiasco. At one time in our countries history republicans actually used the environment as a platform. I wonder what happen? I guess those campaign donations were pretty hard to turn down.
 

Chadman

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I guess what I'm really asking Wayne, is, you are specifically looking for someone here to find an article that addresses this particular article and refutes it - or the content? Isn't that a little contrived and specific? But, let me know what you need exactly.

The thing is, I already know that if I find something, your interpretation of scientific "proof" and mine probably would differ quite a bit, that is, if I could find a specific article that spends the time speaking on the exact issues your article in question puts forth. Kind of a narrow request, IMO, especially considering how you attack specific sources and immediately ridicule them on most issues of this sort.
 

ImFeklhr

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Find me just one article from any scientific source that provides any proof and doesn't use the terms "may" "could be result" ect.


Isn't that how science works though? They collect and analyze data. Then start with "might be", then do more work and say "probably is" then get more evidence and say "almost certainly is"... Slowly more evidence comes in, and a consensus forms. Global warming is extremely complex and will probably never have 100% of scientists on it's side. And that's ok. Good science is all about peer review and dissenting opinions. Eventually the cream will rise to the top.

Ideally good scientists don't immediately take bold or absolute stances. Typically it's the media that interprets what they say, and regurgitates it in in absolute terms. "Coffee prevents cancer"... two years later... "Coffee causes cancer" The scientists rarely say these things... it's the media that takes years of scientific research and tries to come up with a conclusive headline that will entice the public.

That's the problem with people like Gore. They believe everything any scientists who generally supports global warming says. So Gore occasionally busts out with a conclusion that isn't within the scientific consensus yet.

The thing I always have to remind myself when reading anything regarding science is that... science isn't brief. You can't analyze or understand science in a newspaper article. You might be able to get a feel for what the research is about... but it cannnnot be reduced to soundbites/factoids. It just doesn't work.

The challenge is when political decisions need to be made based on scientific research (Kyoto Protocol). Each sides parades scientists who support their view. It's a toughie.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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BBC That global warming is man made and not just another cycle like we've had since the beginning of time.

What makes this warming trend any diff than the ones before when there was less emmisions than now:shrug:

Don't get me wrong--I'm for cleaning up any polution but to be duped on a scale this large is insulting--and where are all the Global Warming hurricane predictors the past 2 years--hiding behind the y2k wacko's ;)

I liked your article Reds--it goes well with the one I posted if you read both again--

Both use the same hypothosis--one just doesn't tell you how little diff it makes.

I waiting for someone to me some common sense facts why it was hotter in the 30's than now if omisions has such a horrendous effect:shrug:

Steve McIntyre posted this data from NASA's newly published data set from Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS) These numbers represent deviation from the mean temperature calculated from temperature measurement stations throughout the USA.

According to the new data published by NASA, 1998 is no longer the hottest year ever. 1934 is.

Four of the top 10 years of US CONUS high temperature deviations are now from the 1930s: 1934, 1931, 1938 and 1939, while only 3 of the top 10 are from the last 10 years (1998, 2006, 1999). Several years (2000, 2002, 2003, 2004) fell well down the leaderboard, behind even 1900. (World rankings of temperature are calculated separately
 
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The Sponge

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Dogs, the real question is if it stays warm all winter will my tomato plants grow year round? I see they are still producing flowers. Nothing better than a Pennsy tomato. They blow Jersey's tomato's away.
 
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