chirac and the E.U. experiment collapse under their own weight..

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
the french and dutch say no to the e.u. treaty vote that pretty much makes chirac a lame duck and means that his plan for europe as a socialist anti-american counter balance appears to have failed miserably....

the european people apparently didn`t like giving up their sovereignty to a bunch of bureaucrats in brussels...

bravo europe... :clap: ....chirac`s days are numbered...
 

kosar

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It doesn't matter. The next guy will be no better.

I don't care for France much, but between Bush and Chirac, who was correct about Iraq?

And before we stray, yes I know, France did business with Iraq and so did Haliburton. So we'll call that a wash.

So who was right?

Wouldn't a leader be doing his own country a huge disservice in every way by simply ignoring everything that pointed to no WMD and blindly follow our bible-thumping Prez who simply had a hard-on for Saddam?
 

gardenweasel

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kosar aligns himself with the french.......my worst fears are realized....

france did business with iraq while sanctions and inspections were ongoing....a bit of a difference,i`d say..

what`s bad for france,right now,is probably good for us...


a little tidbit to chew on...


UNITED NATIONS - U.N. satellite imagery experts have determined that material that could be used to make biological or chemical weapons and banned long-range missiles has been removed from 109 sites in Iraq, U.N. weapons inspectors said in a report obtained Thursday.

U.N. inspectors have been blocked from returning to Iraq since the U.S.-led war in 2003 so they have been using satellite photos to see what happened to the sites that were subject to U.N. monitoring because their equipment had both civilian and military uses.

In the report to the U.N. Security Council, acting chief weapons inspector Demetrius Perricos said he’s reached no conclusions about who removed the items or where they went. He said it could have been moved elsewhere in Iraq, sold as scrap, melted down or purchased.

He said the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes. “However, they can also be utilized for prohibited purposes if in a good state of repair.”

He said imagery analysts have identified 109 sites that have been emptied of equipment"""' ...

more than a hundred sites! that’s a lot of storage space for something that never existed.....

lol
 

kosar

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gardenweasel said:
kosar aligns himself with the french.......my worst fears are realized....

france did business with iraq while sanctions and inspections were ongoing....a bit of a difference,i`d say..

what`s bad for france,right now,is probably good for us...


a little tidbit to chew on...


UNITED NATIONS - U.N. satellite imagery experts have determined that material that could be used to make biological or chemical weapons and banned long-range missiles has been removed from 109 sites in Iraq, U.N. weapons inspectors said in a report obtained Thursday.

U.N. inspectors have been blocked from returning to Iraq since the U.S.-led war in 2003 so they have been using satellite photos to see what happened to the sites that were subject to U.N. monitoring because their equipment had both civilian and military uses.

In the report to the U.N. Security Council, acting chief weapons inspector Demetrius Perricos said he?s reached no conclusions about who removed the items or where they went. He said it could have been moved elsewhere in Iraq, sold as scrap, melted down or purchased.

He said the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes. ?However, they can also be utilized for prohibited purposes if in a good state of repair.?

He said imagery analysts have identified 109 sites that have been emptied of equipment"""' ...

more than a hundred sites! that?s a lot of storage space for something that never existed.....

lol

lol- dude, i'm not aligned with the French. In fact, I find almost everything about that country distasteful. But I was hoping for a simple answer to a simple question. No dice, I guess.

Also, unless i'm going crazy, Iraq was under sanctions in the mid-90's when Haliburton was feeding at the trough.


I saw that article you posted, last week. What is significant about that, other than we lost control of some potentially dangerous equipment?

Now, as for the actual equipment being there. For one thing, it was dual use. For another thing, yes, theyused to have WMD. Of course you know that as we promoted their use against Iran in the late 80's.

Sooooo, yes, there are 'sites' there. Of course there are. They were used once upon a time, probably. But finding dual use equipment and no weapons/chemicals/anything isn't exactly a smoking gun.

Yes, they *did* have a program in the 80's, but the real question is how UN satellite photos identified not only the sites, but the equipment missing, while we not only didn't find them, but we let whoever carry them away.

People can keep glomming on to the hope/dream that these huge stockpiles of WMD are there or were there in 2003, but some of us will stay grounded in reality.
 

gardenweasel

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bottom line....iraq is just an excuse for more bush flagellation...

clinton was as vehement about saddam`s threat as bush was....maybe even more adamant....

not just clinton....kerry,and many other democratic candidates and leaders...

look it up...clinton saw saddam as a monster that would have to be revisited every 5-10 years.....and realized that the guy was the major loose cannon in the powderkeg that is the middle east....

this isn`t about iraq....i`ve outlined saddam`s history of atrocity many times on this board....his invasions...his genocide...his attempts at building a nuclear bomb...his threats to destroy israel....his refusal to allow inspectors total access to all areas of concern in iraq....his burning of oil fields...his aiding and abetting of terrorists...his complicity in the attempted assasination of a u.s. president....

good lord..don`t waste your breath...

it`s about gore losing in 2000...and about kerry`s abject failure in 2004....

and the democrat`s total lack of any future vision for this country....

and i`m no bush fan....i just get tiired of all the myopic political b.s....that`s the real debate on this board...that the democrats keep losing...that`s where the shrillness comes from...



on iraq...iin it`s relatively short history,this country has achieved wealth and freedom unmatched in the history of civilization ........but,many liberals in the u.s. believe that they have evolved beyond the use of force.......

in their "arrogance",and that`s the word that i think is most applicable, they think people like(saddam and bin laden and al qaeda) are more or less like ourselves and live in a similar world of reason and tolerance.....the terrorist pick up on this bullshit...most of their rhetoric comes right out of the western media.....

september 11 has come and gone...faded in the elitist`s memory... too many liberals feel that it is time to let bygones be bygones..... they think that islamic fascism is a nuisance that will go away if we just come home from iraq....they don`t realize that we aren`t fighting iraq,now....we are fighting the terrorists IN iraq......


the liberal elite believe that the bin ladens and the saddam`s are less of a threat than bush.... al qaeda keeps promising to kill us,but that`s no biggie....nothing`s happened since 2001....

this is the real sickness in the west....

it`s the same sickness that engulfed europe prior to ww2....
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Correct me if I wrong but I don't think this administration said anywhere that Iraq was responisble for 911.
Somehow I of the understanding that they were included the axis of evil with NK-Syria-Iran ect.
As Matt referred to there was no doubt they WMD's at one time--further more the inspectors and Saddam could not account for tons that had had been supposedly destroyed--therefore the UN put in resolutions for Iraq to comply with--Saddam would NOT comply-and continued to fire at our planes. He had choice to comply and avert war--but did not for reasons we now know that he thought the French could avert UN taking actions which he was correct on--however what he didn't realize we now had president that did not need permission to enforce it.

Kinda of made Lybia rethink its stance as well as others.

Islamic terrorist were responsible for 911--They trained openly in many countries that now they are fugatives in--in fact I can't think of anywhere on earth they can train openly anymore.

and who is responsible for that????
 

kosar

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Cheney and Rice both tried to link Iraq to 9/11.

Saddam was nowhere near an imminent threat to anybody, much less us.

How about this? Even if Saddam had chemical or biological weapons, what made them a priority over Iran, Syria, North Korea and scores of other countries who have those types of weapons.

No, W knew from the very beginning that he wanted to take Saddam out and 9/11 was his perfect excuse.


bottom line....iraq is just an excuse for more bush flagellation...

Huh? Wow, if that isn't some twisted logic. Right, everybody is just nitpicking. Once again, no accountability for poor decisions.
 

AR182

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kosar quote:"Saddam was nowhere near an imminent threat to anybody, much less us."


he paid $25,000 to a suicide bomber's families for killing israeli's.

why couldn't he have done the same or paid more for killing americans ?
 
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kosar

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AR182 said:
kosar quote:"Saddam was nowhere near an imminent threat to anybody, much less us."


he paid $25,000 to a suicide bomber's family for killing israeli's.

why couldn't he have done the same or paid more for killing americans ?

Well, I guess he *could* have tried that, but he didn't.
 

AR182

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how do we know that it wasn't going to happen ?

we don't....but he was capable of that happening.

and that made him a threat,imo.
 

kosar

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AR182 said:
how do we know that it wasn't going to happen ?

we don't....but he was capable of that happening.

and that made him a threat,imo.

Oh brother. Come on, man. He was capable just like any other leader in the world.

He was a threat to the US because he paid a Palestinian suicide bombers family 25k?

Every country in the ME hates Israel and supports terror against it. Most of them much more directly than Saddam and his payoffs. I mean seriously, those guys willing to blow themselves up don't need any incentive.

The excuses/explanations for why this war was a good idea just keep getting worse and worse.
 

gardenweasel

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saddam wasn`t an imminent threat?.....

which time?

the attempt to assasinate bush?.....

the attempt to build a nuclear reactor?.....

the time he tried to take kuwait and gain a stranglehold on a large portion of middle eastern oil?....

the same time he burned their oil fields...as i said before,more dems voted to authorize the use force to invade iraq than to force him out of kuwait..i`ll never get that one...



.i think they wanted to try and embargo and sanction him to death...of course,we know now that the u.n. is so corrupt that embargo`s and sanctions are laughable......

if the dems had their way,he might still be in kuwait..

the time he lobbed scuds into israel as they sat by with their hands in their pockets...trying to start a potential full scale war in the middle east...compromising a large part of the world`s oil supply

just like the french and ww2......ignore them...maybe they`ll go away..

saddam would have to be flying an old b-52 armed with a nuke over n.y.c. for some guys to consider him a threat...

they don`t understand that homeland security doesn`t exclude our interests abroad...and what happens abroad impacts this country`s well being...

3 strikes and your out...saddam struck out 2 or 3 times...

or,leave him alone....maybe he can deny inspectors long enough...or elude their inspections....or kick them out when they get to close.....or never disclose whether he`s destroyed his bio and chemical stockpiles...

long enough to become another n.korea....because no one knew for sure....

from david kay.....weapons inspector. in the early 90`s....

"""I think we were able to accomplish something that, even in retrospect, I'm still amazed at. We were able to uncover a clandestine weapons program. Up until that time -- realize that the record of arms control is really confirming that people, who have no intention of cheating, are not cheating. The Belgians aren't developing their clandestine nuclear weapons program -- oh, big surprise!

Iraq was the case of actually being able to discover a program that the opposition didn't want you to.

Secondly, we were able, for the first time, to use new tools of arms control. And not just intelligence. Zero notice inspections did not involve intelligence. It involved a change of policy and will of the international community to allow inspectors to inspect without telling you in advance where you were going. The standard I.A.E.A. inspection before the war, and one that is still used today in most states: you're coming, inspectors are coming, six months in advance. They have to apply for visas. They have to get airplane flights. So, if you want to hide something, you have more than ample opportunity. We pioneered new tools and new methods of doing it. And I think that's terribly important over the long run.

But let me say, we did not fully understand the Iraqi program. The biological program was far too difficult for inspectors to find and really was not uncovered until the two son-in-laws defected.

Today, eight years after, they have not made what most people judge to be a full and complete declaration of their prohibited materials. Second, it turned out to be far more extensive.

In the nuclear area, for example, it turned out Iraq had spent over $10 billion in the 1980s to develop a program that explored practically every known way to enrich uranium, and to craft a nuclear weapon. This was not a small program. It was one that was so extensive, that as an inspector, when you faced it, your mind boggled. The largest team I ever took into Iraq was a team of 44 individuals, and we were expected to route out by ourselves this massive program? That was a challenge.

And then, of course, Saddam survived, and it became quite clear early on into the inspections, that this individual had no intent of giving up, not only his nuclear program, but his biological, chemical and missile program. So you were dealing with an actively hostile regime that was determined to frustrate the international inspectors."""

this was from the early to mid 90`s....and it continued for another 7 or eight years.....

why?...because saddam never came clean and denied total access...
 
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kosar

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gardenweasel said:
saddam wasn`t an imminent threat?.....

which time?

the attempt to assasinate bush?.....

The 'attempt' or the 'desire?' Yes, he wanted Bush 41 dead. That's what happens when your military gets rightfully decimated and your cutoff from the world more or less due to sanctions. There was never any 'attempt' at all. There was some far-fetched scheme that never got anywhere.

Bush 43 came much closer to death in Georgia a few weeks ago when someone rolled a live grenade to within a hundred feet of him.


the attempt to build a nuclear reactor?.....

Problem solved by Israel 18 years before our invasion.

the time he tried to take kuwait and gain a stranglehold on a large portion of middle eastern oil?....

Problem solved by everybody 12 years before our invasion.




the time he lobbed scuds into israel as they sat by with their hands in their pockets...trying to start a potential full scale war in the middle east...

Yes, during a war 12 years before our invasion. Problem was solved.


just like the french and ww2......ignore them...maybe they`ll go away..

Boy, it's amazing that somebody so ignored had absolutely no wmd program and a horrible military.


saddam would have to be flying an old b-52 armed with a nuke over n.y.c. for some guys to consider him a threat...


No, but maybe he'd have to have more than RPG's and balsa wood unmanned drones.


they don`t understand that homeland security doesn`t exclude our interests abroad...and what happens abroad impacts this country`s well being...

I agree and I thik this 'war' proves your point.
 

kosar

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gardenweasel said:
from david kay.....weapons inspector. in the early 90`s....

"""I think we were able to accomplish something that, even in retrospect, I'm still amazed at. We were able to uncover a clandestine weapons program. Up until that time -- realize that the record of arms control is really confirming that people, who have no intention of cheating, are not cheating. The Belgians aren't developing their clandestine nuclear weapons program -- oh, big surprise!

Iraq was the case of actually being able to discover a program that the opposition didn't want you to.

Secondly, we were able, for the first time, to use new tools of arms control. And not just intelligence. Zero notice inspections did not involve intelligence. It involved a change of policy and will of the international community to allow inspectors to inspect without telling you in advance where you were going. The standard I.A.E.A. inspection before the war, and one that is still used today in most states: you're coming, inspectors are coming, six months in advance. They have to apply for visas. They have to get airplane flights. So, if you want to hide something, you have more than ample opportunity. We pioneered new tools and new methods of doing it. And I think that's terribly important over the long run.

But let me say, we did not fully understand the Iraqi program. The biological program was far too difficult for inspectors to find and really was not uncovered until the two son-in-laws defected.

Today, eight years after, they have not made what most people judge to be a full and complete declaration of their prohibited materials. Second, it turned out to be far more extensive.

In the nuclear area, for example, it turned out Iraq had spent over $10 billion in the 1980s to develop a program that explored practically every known way to enrich uranium, and to craft a nuclear weapon. This was not a small program. It was one that was so extensive, that as an inspector, when you faced it, your mind boggled. The largest team I ever took into Iraq was a team of 44 individuals, and we were expected to route out by ourselves this massive program? That was a challenge.

And then, of course, Saddam survived, and it became quite clear early on into the inspections, that this individual had no intent of giving up, not only his nuclear program, but his biological, chemical and missile program. So you were dealing with an actively hostile regime that was determined to frustrate the international inspectors."""

this was from the early to mid 90`s....and it continued for another 7 or eight years.....

why?...because saddam never came clean and denied total access...


Yes, he once had a program. I think we agree on that. We can also agree that he mis-calculated by bluffing.

I guess we won't agree that it was the wrong war at the wrong time. He was contained. After 9/11 we had more important things to do rather than invade and occupy Iraq.
 

gardenweasel

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i`m glad you aren`t our national security advisor,kosar....

excuses...reasons to be inert...


let me think,here... isn`t this the same old song and dance we heard with north korea in 1994, the same thing from iraq throughout the 1990s and into the 21st century, and now we're hearing it regarding Iran.....

the iaea is obviously powerless - my opinion is that it's powerless because there is no interest in stopping proliferation...... it's a sham goal that many of these tinpot dictators and totalitarian regimes agreed to knowing full well that they could evade any iaea action simply by refusing to give access on demand. ..which is what iraq did for a decade and a half..

hell,they can`t even inspect where they to want in iran...without their permission...

get it?..

it`s a sham..much like "oil for food"....and lip service embargo`s and sanctions....

and clinton`s treaty with n.korea...that had no verification...

..sure, we wanted to limit the number of nations that had nukes - just like you want to limit the kiddies playing with firecrackers when they were to young to realize that they could blow up in their faces - but that desire to limit nations is tempered because those very kiddie states have a say......

thus, the delay and evade tactic permits any nation to avoid any consequential action to force a nation to stop prohibited actions (proliferating nukes)......

and there we have iraq....


read the david kay article i posted in this thread...(i see you read it)....

no one knew what saddam did or didn`t have...he didn`t comply...after literally a decade and a half of inspections....

why did so many dems not want to extract him from kuwait?

answer...because they stand for nothing...they do nothing...
the liberal media ties our hands in war...they tie our hands in interrogation....


as i said before, liberals in the u.s. believe that they have evolved beyond the use of force.......

they believe they can talk issues to death...like france...

arrogance...elitism....just like europe...like the u.n.....that`s what they stand for..that`s why they lose...and are toothless..
 
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kosar

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Gimme a break on the 'elitism' and 'arrogance' and 'above force.' That's nonsense. The 'liberal media' was completely and totally onboard with this thing, until certain details became apparent. All the stations played a continuous loop for like two weeks showing that Saddam statue being pulled down.

Every last one of the embedded reporters spoke of positive things 100% of the time.

Very, very few of the military analysts had anything negative to say as the invasion was nearing. It was interesting how very few columnists or reporters questioned it. It was all systems go as Cheney and Rice told us how Iraq played a part in 9/11. Jingoism was at an all-time high based on lies and half-truths. It's just that this didn't become apparent until well into the campaign.

Why is that? Well, they trusted the administration. The media was fawning over this invasion and somehow you blame them for our problems in the world?

Now tell me, what exactly would you do about Iran? They have at least 7 nuclear sites of various size. Some can be dual use and some are too small to have military uses.

They are bunkered in underground and their exact locations are unknown. They are legal under international law and the non-proliferation treaty.

You apparently have no use for inspectors or European involvement, so what would you suggest?

Tell them that if they enrich uranium(legal if used for civilian purposes) then we will attack them? Sanction them?

The dreaded Europe has until the end of July to come up with a proposal and if it's not accepted, then Iran will continue on their quest to enrich uranium.

Since you wouldn't be comfortable with me as the NSA, I welcome all thoughts and ideas on this....lol
 
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