Hard to believe that nobody saw this. No players, coaches or fans?
And if they didn't see it and raise a stink they probably deserved to lose.
Coach Teaches 14 Year Olds How To Cheat
- Thread starter Blitz
- Start date
Hard to believe that nobody saw this. No players, coaches or fans?
And if they didn't see it and raise a stink they probably deserved to lose.
I have coached little league through college baseball and never heard of such a thing. parents on the other teams nor the base umpires would not allow such a thing. :nono: I have played for several coaches that automatically had players go from 2nd to home on a bunt, it was a set play. But to have kids go from second base straight to home? Really? U sure there was'nt a mistake made. You seem a little unsure how you asked the questions. I can't see it guys, sorry! Not that it did'nt happen, just saying i highly doubt that a coach would teach such a thing as players, parents, and coaches all know better!:nono:
ARROW
No - you can not leave the baseline to avoid a tag. You can leave the baseline though or else everyone would be out rounding 1st base on a double.
MLB Rule
7.08
Any runner is out when --
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.
This rule also covers the following and similar plays: Less than two out, score tied last of ninth inning, runner on first, batter hits a ball out of park for winning run, the runner on first passes second and thinking the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across diamond toward his bench as batter-runner circles bases. In this case, the base runner would be called out “for abandoning his effort to touch the next base” and batter-runner permitted to continue around bases to make his home run valid. If there are two out, home run would not count (see Rule 7.12). This is not an appeal play.
PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.
Years ago i played slow pitch softball with a guy who would purposely NEVER touch home to see if ump or catcher ever noticed. I'm not sure how often he did it, but do know he never was caught. :facepalm:
I know both ASA and USSSA slow pitch softball are appeal plays as well so even if the umpire saw it, he wouldn't say anything.
I thought there was a youtube vid of the play Blitz was talking about but I couldn't find it. I have heard of a play similar but never personally seen it in action.
Here's a Myth Rules page below that is pretty good. (link - view-source:http://baseball-rules.com/myths.htm)
The only one that has me a little confused is #24 - An appeal play is not a force play and when a runner misses a base he is assumed to have touched until the appeal is made.
<H2>ALL of the following statements are FALSE.</H2>
<P><A HREF="#answers">See the explanations and rule references.</A> </P>
<P>1. The hands are considered part of the bat. <BR>
2. The batter-runner must turn to his right after over-running first base. <BR>
3. If the batter breaks his wrists when swinging, it's a strike. <BR>
4. If a batted ball hits the plate first it's a foul ball. <BR>
5. The batter cannot be called out for interference if he is in the batter's box. <BR>
6. The ball is dead on a foul-tip. <BR>
7. The batter may not switch batter's boxes after two strikes. <BR>
8. The batter who batted out of order is the person declared out. <BR>
9. The batter may not overrun first base when he gets a base-on-balls. <BR>
10. The batter is out if he starts for the dugout before going to first after a dropped third strike. <BR>
11. If the batter does not pull the bat out of the strike zone while in the bunting position, it's an automatic strike. <BR>
12. The batter is out if a bunted ball hits the ground and bounces back up and hits the bat while the batter is holding the bat. <BR>
13. The batter is out if his foot touches the plate. <BR>
14. The batter-runner is always out if he runs outside the running lane after a bunted ball. <BR>
15. A runner is out if he slaps hands or high-fives other players, after a homerun is hit over the fence. <BR>
16. Tie goes to the runner. <BR>
17. The runner gets the base he's going to, plus one on a ball thrown out-of-play. <BR>
18. Anytime a coach touches a runner, the runner is out. <BR>
19. Runners may never run the bases in reverse order. <BR>
20. The runner must always slide when the play is close. <BR>
21. The runner is always safe when hit by a batted ball while touching a base. <BR>
22. A runner may not steal on a foul-tip. <BR>
23. It is a force out when a runner is called out for not tagging up on a fly ball. <BR>
24. An appeal on a runner who missed a base cannot be a force out. <BR>
25. A runner is out if he runs out of the baseline to avoid a fielder who is fielding a batted ball. <BR>
26. Runners may not advance when an infield fly is called. <BR>
27. No run can score when a runner is called out for the third out for not tagging up. <BR>
28. A pitch that bounces to the plate cannot be hit. <BR>
29. The batter does not get first base if hit by a pitch after it bounces. <BR>
30. If a fielder holds a fly ball for 2 seconds it's a catch. <BR>
31. You must tag the base with your foot on a force out or appeal. <BR>
32. The ball is always immediately dead on a balk. <BR>
33. If a player's feet are in fair territory when the ball is touched, it is a fair ball. <BR>
34. The ball must always be returned to the pitcher before an appeal can be made. <BR>
35. With no runners on base, it is a ball if the pitcher starts his windup and then stops. <BR>
36. The pitcher must come to a set position before a pick-off throw. <BR>
37. The pitcher must step off the rubber before a pick-off throw. <BR>
38. If a fielder catches a fly ball and then falls over the fence it is a homerun. <BR>
39. The ball is dead anytime an umpire is hit by the ball. <BR>
40. The home plate umpire can overrule the other umps at anytime. </P>
<P><HR></P>
<P><A NAME="answers"></P>
<H3>Explanations and Rule References</H3>
<P>1. The hands are part of a person's body. If a pitch hits the batter's hands the ball is dead; if he swung at the pitch, a strike is called (NOT a foul). If he was avoiding the pitch, he is awarded first base.<BR>
Rules: 2.00 PERSON, TOUCH, STRIKE (e) and 6.05(f) <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
2. The batter-runner may turn left or right, provided that if he turns left he does not make an attempt to advance. An attempt is a judgment made by the umpire. The requirement is that the runner must immediately return to first after overrunning or oversliding it. <BR>
Rule: 7.08(c and j) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules7.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
3. A strike is a judgment by the umpire as to whether the batter attempted to strike the ball. Breaking the wrists, or the barrel of the bat crossing the plate are simply guides to making the judgment of an attempt, these are not rules. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 STRIKE <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
4. The plate is in fair territory. There is nothing special about it. If a batted ball hits it, it is treated like any other batted ball. <BR>
5. The batter's box is not a safety zone. A batter could be called out for interference if the umpire judges that interference could or should have been avoided. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 INTERFERENCE, 6.06(c) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A>. <BR>
6. There is nothing foul about a foul-tip. If the ball nicks the bat and goes sharp and direct to the catcher's hand or glove and is caught, this is a foul-tip by definition. A foul-tip is a strike and the ball is alive. It is the same as a swing-and-miss. If the ball is not caught, it is a foul ball. If the nicked pitch first hits the catcher somewhere other than the hand or glove, it is not a foul-tip, it is a foul ball.<BR>
Rules: 2.00 FOUL-TIP, STRIKE <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
7. The batter can switch boxes at any time, provided he does not do it after the pitcher is ready to pitch. <BR>
Rule: 6.06(b) <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
8. The PROPER batter is the one called out. Any hit or advance made by the batter or runners due to the hit, walk, error or other reason is nullified. The next batter is the one who follows the proper batter who was called out. <BR>
Rule: 6.07(b, 1) <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
9. Rule 7.08(c and j) simply state that a batter-runner must immediately return after overrunning first base. It doesn't state any exceptions as to how the player became a runner. It could be a hit, walk, error or dropped third strike. See <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules7.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
10. The batter may attempt first base anytime prior to leaving the dirt circle around home plate. <BR>
Rule: 6.05(c), 6.09(b) Casebook interpretation <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A>. <BR>
11. A strike is an attempt to hit the ball. Simply holding the bat over the plate is not an attempt. This is umpire judgment. <BR>
Rule 2.00 STRIKE <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
12. The rule says the BAT cannot hit the ball a second time. When the BALL hits the bat, it is not an out. <BR>
Rules: 6.05(h) and 7.09(b) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
13. To be out the batter's foot must be ENTIRELY outside the box when he contacts the pitch. There is no statement about touching the plate. The toe could be on the plate and the heel could be touching the line of the box, which means the foot is not entirely outside the box. <BR>
Rule: 6.06(a) <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules//06_the_batter.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
14. The runner must be out of the box AND cause interference. He is not out simply for being outside the lane. He could be called for interference even while in the lane. This is a judgment call. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 INTERFERENCE, 6.05(k), 7.09(k) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
15. The ball is dead on a homerun over the fence. You can't be put out while the ball is dead except when you pass another runner. <BR>
Rules: 5.02, 7.05(a) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
16. There is no such thing in the world of umpiring. The runner is either out or safe. <BR>
17. When a fielder other than the pitcher throws the ball into dead ball area, the award is 2 bases. The award is from where the runners were at the time of the pitch if it is the first play by an infielder before all runners have advanced or from where each runner was physically positioned at the time the ball left the throwers hand on all other plays. <BR>
Rule: 7.05(g) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules7.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
18. Rule 7.09(I) says the runner is out if the coach PHYSICALLY ASSISTS the runner. Hand slaps, back pats or simple touches are not physical assists. <BR>
19. In order to correct a base running mistake, the runner MUST retrace his steps and retouch the bases in reverse order. The only time a runner is out for running in reverse, is when he is making a travesty of the game or tries to confuse the defense. <BR>
Rules: 7.08(I), 7.10(b) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules7.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
20. There is no "must slide" rule. When the fielder has the ball in possession, the runner has two choices; slide OR attempt to get around the fielder. He may NOT deliberately or maliciously contact the fielder, but he is NOT required to slide. <BR>
Rule: 7.08(a, 3) this rule does not apply to professionals. <BR>
See <A HREF="sliding.htm">Sliding</A> and <A HREF="umphelp.htm#P1g">Collisions</A>. <BR>
21. The bases are in fair territory. A runner is out when hit by a fair batted ball, except an infield-fly. <BR>
Rules: 5.09(f), 7.08(f) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
22. There is nothing foul about a foul-tip. If the ball nicks the bat and goes to the catcher's glove and is caught, this is a foul-tip by definition. A foul-tip is a strike and the ball is alive. It is the same as a swing-and-miss. If the ball is not caught, it is a foul ball. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 FOUL-TIP, STRIKE <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
23. A force play is when a runner is forced to advance because the batter became a runner. When the batter is out on a caught fly, all forces are removed. An out on an a failure to tag-up, is NOT a force out. Any runs that cross the plate before this out will count. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, 4.09 <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
24. A runner must touch all the bases. If the runner misses a base to which he was forced because the batter became a runner and is put out before touching that base, the out is still a force play. If this is the third out, no runs may score. The base can be touched or the runner can be touched, either way it's a force out. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, TAG, 7.08(e), 7.10(b) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
25. The runner MUST avoid a fielder attempting to field a BATTED ball. A runner is out for running out of the baseline, only when attempting to avoid a tag. <BR>
Rules: 7.08(a), 7.09(L) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules7.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
26. An Infield-fly is no different than any other fly ball in regard to the runners. The only difference is that they are never forced to advance because the batter is out whether the ball is caught or not. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 INFIELD-FLY, 6.05(e), 7.10(a) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
27. Yes it can. This is not a force play. A force play is when a runner is forced to advance because the batter became a runner. When the batter is out on a caught fly, all forces are removed. An out on an a failure to tag-up, is NOT a force out. Any runs that cross the plate before this out will count. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, 4.09, 7.10(a) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
28. A pitch is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher. It doesn't matter how it gets to the batter. The batter may hit any pitch that is thrown. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 PITCH. (If the ball does not cross the foul line, it is not a pitch.) <BR>
29. A pitch is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher. It doesn't matter how it gets to the batter. If the batter is hit by a pitch while attempting to avoid it, he is awarded first base. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 PITCH, 6.08(b). <BR>
30. A catch is legal when the umpire judges that the fielder has COMPLETE control of the ball. The release of the ball must be voluntary and intentional. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 CATCH <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
31. You can tag a base with ANY part of the body. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, PERSON, TAG, 7.08(e) <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
32. In Federation rules it is, not in any others. If a throw or pitch is made after the balk call, the ball is delayed dead. At the end of the play the balk may be enforced or not depending on what happened. On a throw; if ALL runners advance on the play, the balk is ignored. If not, the balk award is enforced from the time of pitch. On a pitch; if ALL runners INCLUDING the batter, advance on the play, the balk is ignored. Otherwise, it is no-pitch and the balk award is made from the time of the pitch. <BR>
Rule: 8.05 PENALTY <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules8.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
33. The position of the player's feet or any other part of the body is irrelevant. A ball is judged fair or foul based on the relationship between the ball and the ground at the time the ball is touched. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 FAIR, FOUL <A HREF="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
34. An appeal may be made anytime the ball is alive. The only time the ball must go to the pitcher, is when time is out. The ball cannot be made live until the pitcher has the ball while on the rubber and the umpire says "Play." If time is not out, the appeal can be made immediately. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 APPEAL, 5.11, 7.10 <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
35. A pitch is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher. If the ball is not delivered, it is not a pitch. If this happens with runners on base it is a balk. <BR>
Rule: 2.00 PITCH. <BR>
36. The pitcher is required to come to a complete stop in the Set position before delivering the pitch, not before making a throw. <BR>
Rule: 8.05(m) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules8.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
37. If the pitcher steps off the rubber he is no longer the pitcher, he is a fielder. He can throw to a base from the rubber, provided he does not break any of the rules under rule 8.05 <BR>
<A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules8.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
38. As long as the fielder is not touching the ground in dead ball territory when he catches the ball, it is a legal catch if he holds onto the ball and meets the definition of a catch. If the catch is not the third out and the fielder falls down in dead ball territory, all runners are awarded one base. If the fielder remains on his feet in dead ball territory after the catch, the ball is alive and he may make a play. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 CATCH, 6.05(a), 7.04(c) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
39. If an umpire is hit by a batted ball before it passes a fielder, the ball is dead. On any other batted or thrown ball, the ball is alive when the umpire is hit with the ball. Umpire interference also occurs when the plate umpire interferes with the catcher's attempt to prevent a stolen base. <BR>
Rules: 2.00 INTERFERENCE, 5.09(b), 5.09(f) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules5.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> <BR>
40. The umpire who made a call or ruling may ask for help if he wishes. No umpire may overrule another umpire's call. <BR>
Rules: 9.02(b, c) <A HREF="http://www.majorleaguebaseball.com/library/rules9.sml">Official Baseball Rules</A> </P>
<P></A></P>
Appreciate looking up the rules. Didn't you just answer the question though. It seems to me that this is something the ump could/should catch and make the call.
Umpire's sit around and debate this type of stuff all the time, so I don't mind other people having different interpretations.
That highlighted area relates to this scenario...
"This rule also covers the following and similar plays: Less than two out, score tied last of ninth inning, runner on first, batter hits a ball out of park for winning run, the runner on first passes second and thinking the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across diamond toward his bench as batter-runner circles bases. In this case, "
Abandoning the base is usually associated with running back to a dugout not continuing to the next base, which occurred in Blitz's scenario.
I can tell you in my opinion, as per Blitz's scenario, this would be a missed base and not an abandoned base, and I would have waited for a proper appeal.
I am guessing that if the defensive team had made a proper appeal, an out would have been called, but we'll never know because an appeal was not made.
Should have kept my mouth shut
Should have kept my mouth shut
Everyone know the runner has to retrace his steps when returning to his original base. WE often see this on long fly ball outs when the runner on first doesn't think it's going to be caught.
A couple years ago I'm watching an ALL STAR game of Pony Leaguers (13-14). A kid is in a rundown between 3rd and home after a failed squeeze attempt. For some reason the runner on 2nd "ROUNDS" 3rd and doesn't re touch 3rd when he eventually heads back to 2nd. :scared
My instincts got the better of me, and I shouted "HE DIDN"T RETOUCH 3RD." :nono: The place got quiet, and I swear I not only don't think any of the 3 umps saw it, I'm not sure if they know the rule. :shrug:
Anyways, I sheepishly fade into the background, but was justified in the end when the 3rd base coach from the guilty (and vistining) team told me i was right. :0008
Should have kept my mouth shut
Everyone know the runner has to retrace his steps when returning to his original base. WE often see this on long fly ball outs when the runner on first doesn't think it's going to be caught.
A couple years ago I'm watching an ALL STAR game of Pony Leaguers (13-14). A kid is in a rundown between 3rd and home after a failed squeeze attempt. For some reason the runner on 2nd "ROUNDS" 3rd and doesn't re touch 3rd when he eventually heads back to 2nd. :scared
My instincts got the better of me, and I shouted "HE DIDN"T RETOUCH 3RD." :nono: The place got quiet, and I swear I not only don't think any of the 3 umps saw it, I'm not sure if they know the rule. :shrug:
Anyways, I sheepishly fade into the background, but was justified in the end when the 3rd base coach from the guilty (and vistining) team told me i was right. :0008
Jeez Homeog didn't you see in the first post that this was the 14 to 16 year old blind league
Jeez Homeog didn't you see in the first post that this was the 14 to 16 year old blind league
:rimshot
I'm calling bullshit that no one saw it if it really happened. People in the stands, bench, wherever would have been going nuts for an appeal.
On the flip side... none of it matters if the ump didn't see it because he's not gonna call it.
Appeals turn my stomach anyway because years ago in the local league I played in, this one damn team questioned every DAMN PLAY. Fly ball deep to center... runner tags from 3rd about an hour after the catch and trots home...."Blue...BLUE... was the tag good? BLUE!!!!" I always wondered if one of those hot Miken Ultra's would rupture when it contacted that dudes kneecaps.
On the flip side... none of it matters if the ump didn't see it because he's not gonna call it.
Appeals turn my stomach anyway because years ago in the local league I played in, this one damn team questioned every DAMN PLAY. Fly ball deep to center... runner tags from 3rd about an hour after the catch and trots home...."Blue...BLUE... was the tag good? BLUE!!!!" I always wondered if one of those hot Miken Ultra's would rupture when it contacted that dudes kneecaps.
