Congratulations to the Democrats on getting something done on Immigration

[gardenweasel]

I haven't had a chance to read much on the bill, but I have listened to people speak on parts of it. I do have some opionions based on that, but will talk more about it when I learn more about it.

Wayne, I was pretty much just jumping out with a political jab in starting this thread...really have not formed much of an opinion, and I do think it is bi-partisan in many respects. Nice to see something being attempted...this is an issue I doubt any two people will completely agree on.

As for Weasel, I think it funny/sad that he posts several rip/bash/tangent threads on the legislation, and then goes back to actually leaf through it to see what it contains. He criticizes it and brings up complaints - some of which were specifically addressed by the legislation - without evidently even knowing the provisions and content of it.

Never let fact or reality get in the way of a good rip on the opposition, right Wease? Better to rail on something for political gain, than fact check something before you type away. Way to go, brother. Right in line with the same dismissive people you continually support on most issues.

chad...i`ve been reading blurbs of the legislation since it first surfaced on the net....i finally saw a copy of the thing and it`s over 600 pages long....

i`m sure you read it cover to cover......i`d bet that 80% of the pols that will vote on it won`t read it cover to cover.....

so YOU might consider shutting your gob and thinking before making idiotic comments(even though you`ve never let that impede you before).......

what i do know.....there will be a massive influx of border crossings in the lead up to the signing and passing of this bill.....i hope the powers that be are prepared for this contingency,even though i suspect it isn`t even being considered...

proof of work history prior to 01/07 only requires that they have affidavits from non-relatives(ridiculous)....

that the bureaucracy to handle a massive plan like this will cost billions.....whatever minimal fraud detection and prevention safeguards might be erected won’t last long in the face of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of applications and petitions to be adjudicated.....what that means is the information provided on those applications and petitions, and whatever supporting documents they may have (if any), will essentially be taken at face value..... whatever the applicant alien tells the adjudicator will essentially be taken at face value.....if they even bother to obey the laws...

and that`s a BIG if....

yep,the illegals will have to show proof they lived here for a certain length of time...and guess who is going to verify all these faked documents?....the same people who don't do it or care now...along with more and more new government workers...

as i said,they couldn`t enforce much simpler laws that are on the books...

i believe our national integrity has been sold out for the promised votes and slave labor of twelve million(more like 20 million), their broadly extended families, and the multitude of employers, teachers, lawyers, politicians, and civil service bureaucrats who will find their personal security in this fantastic corruption.....

the big winners....
1)corporate america(a great supply of slave labor)

2)the democrat party(millions and millions of new voters hitting the welfare rolls...milions of new entitlement recipients...voting for the party of social programs)....it will be decades before rethuglicans ever garner any power in governemnt...if ever...congrats,dems...

3)the catholic church of america(take that gmro22)...more god fearing catholics...more seats in the pews(although, i don't think 10 pesos are going to be as impressive as 10 dollars in those collection baskets).....

the big losers?...the american middle class...who will foot the bill for social programs out the wazzoo and all the brand new useless bureaucracy....not to mention health care,incarceration,crime et al.....

so, we can all enjoy the inevitable slide into bilingualism (already well underway in the southwest), multiculturalism (ditto) and finally euro-style socialism........oh boy......

i`ll leave you with jabba the kennedy`s comments after the last border amnesty he helped foist on the country in 1986;

" This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this."

they passed enforcement in 1986.....we got none....

they passed an 800 mile fence in 2006.....we got 2 miles.....

now they say they will secure the border for real?....

even after this bill becomes law(which it will), why would the 12 million illegals obey it?....

again,they don't obey the laws we have right now....why pay $5000 when,the way i read it,they can just get class z visas and keep renewing them forever?....

a really great time for open borders. ...i mean,it's never a good time, but as the war with islamic supremacism escalates we cannot afford to have a "come in here and rape me, i'll give you free stuff" policy for foreign nationals.....

i have business to handle,so i`ll leave it for now...

maybe by then,chad will have read the entire bill and will finally have something substantive to add...

(and pigs fly)...

later...

for those that want a gander but don`t feel like searching...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1348.PCS:

 

[smurphy]

I advocate the hanging of anyone who votes for this bill. Not just the designers of it. Who will pay for the health Care of these people? The retirement? The education? But hey, your lettuce is a nickle cheaper.

So, do you think this legislation is worse than doing nothing at all? The border itself will become more secure.

As long as there are are jobs, people will come here. You may as well forget the fantasyland protective rhetoric. We are free market, supply and demand.

As for health care, retirement etc - well, it's the same as anyone who moves to the US. Why should "they" be any different? Just because they are the bottom of the social structure should they be excluded from the same working privelages as everyone else here?

Stronger border security, a system of legally keeping track of migrant workers, and eventual citizenship for those that earn it. ...How the hell is this worse than the chaos that currently exists? AT LEAST IT'S SOMETHING. ...But you prefer a sentence of death to the people that think of it.

This has nothing to do with cheaper lettuce or votes. When you look at the bigger picture and our history of growth, it's pretty much the same deal as any previous wave of immigration.

Unless you are a frickin Cherokee, I assume you came from immigrants, Stevie? You would have supported capital punishment against the very government that let your family come here. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[smurphy]

Lots of opposition from both sides, which instictively makes me like the legislation. Realistic compromise.

 

[AR182]

Lots of opposition from both sides, which instictively makes me like the legislation. Realistic compromise.

our leaders are compromising with people who broke the law......shame on them !!

these laws will also not be enforced..it's a scam for votes....

nothing more....nothing less...

 

[smurphy]

Pops not seeing the big picture. Nothing to do with votes once you get some realistic perspective.

AR - everytime you go to restaurant, you endorse these illegals. Every house you bought in AZ, you endorsed illegal labor. Evertime you spend money pretty much anywhere in the Valley of the Sun, you are in some way endorsing and encouraging migrant labor.

They are only "illegal" as a formality. The overwhelming majority are hard working people who are filling an available position in our capitalist system. While you rally against them on a messageboard, your money says otherwise on a daily basis. Money, as always, speaks louder than words.

 

[smurphy]

these laws will also not be enforced...

Well they don't stand any better chance of being enforced without the legislation in place, do they?

 

[dr. freeze]

If George Bush signs this bill he should be hung for high treason!!!!

As shoudl the rest of the legislators!!!!

This is a direct assault on the Republic itself!!!

Would the last true American in Washington please grab the flag!

:bigun: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[StevieD]

So, do you think this legislation is worse than doing nothing at all? The border itself will become more secure.

As long as there are are jobs, people will come here. You may as well forget the fantasyland protective rhetoric. We are free market, supply and demand.

As for health care, retirement etc - well, it's the same as anyone who moves to the US. Why should "they" be any different? Just because they are the bottom of the social structure should they be excluded from the same working privelages as everyone else here?

Stronger border security, a system of legally keeping track of migrant workers, and eventual citizenship for those that earn it. ...How the hell is this worse than the chaos that currently exists? AT LEAST IT'S SOMETHING. ...But you prefer a sentence of death to the people that think of it.

This has nothing to do with cheaper lettuce or votes. When you look at the bigger picture and our history of growth, it's pretty much the same deal as any previous wave of immigration.

Unless you are a frickin Cherokee, I assume you came from immigrants, Stevie? You would have supported capital punishment against the very government that let your family come here. Yeah, that makes sense.

Of course I cam from Immigrants. Immigrants helped make this country strong. My people came in and earned their citizenship. They learned the language. They came here because they thought that America was a better place. They came here and did not try to turn America into their homeland. They came here and they paid their own way. They came here thru legal channels not illegal.

I have no problem with legal immigrants. I have problems with those that hire illegals. I have problems with them filling our emergency rooms and helping, I said helping, to drive our out of control Health Care costs up. I have a problem that they do not know the language. How will social security pay for their retirement? It can barely pay for ours.

 

[smurphy]

Freeze, go to Canada already!

Well, here's the irony for everyone who thinks migration from Mexico is out of control. If this bill is defeated it will remain just as out of control as it is now. If it passes, there will at the very least be SOME control added. ...Think about it. This notion of wanting to execute people for at least bringing the issue to the table and at least acknowledging the situation so absurd that it makes me kind of understand why the government has been reluctant to do anything all this time.

And on our past immigration compared to current immigration - Many people did not learn English for a while. They congregated in Italian, Polish, Chinese, etc speaking communities. Often the first generation would go without ever learning English. But the generations that follow always become more 'American'. This is where the big picture helps get through the initial cultural protectionist feelings we tend to have. I know it feels good to complain about other people, but it doesn't help anything. It is what it is. Our 'American' culture will be fine. Our education system will be fine. Social security ....well, that's probably not going to last, regardless of immigration.

 

[AR182]

If George Bush signs this bill he should be hung for high treason!!!!

As shoudl the rest of the legislators!!!!

This is a direct assault on the Republic itself!!!

Would the last true American in Washington please grab the flag!

:bigun: :banghead: :banghead:

wow !!

dr. freeze & stevied on the same side of a political issue.

what's next....exchanging phone numbers ?

 

[Terryray]

Dead Money

History repeats....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I am not mistaken, Ancient Rome near the end of their empire, allowed and subscribed outlying ethnics...we know how that ended....

Ancient Rome allowed these ethnics for four centuries, why did they have trouble in the Fifth Century?

perhaps because they started treating the inevitable immigrants differently, as "others", thus allowing powerful enclaves to grow separate and too big?


from Victor Davis Hanson's review of Peter Heather?s recent and very influential book,"Fall of the Roman Empire":

As Heather sees it, overweening Roman imperialism, its insensitivity to ?the other,? its inability to integrate and empower the newcomers who might have offered needed fresh ingredients for new Roman citizens, all this at last created a perfect storm of sorts where almost anyone not Roman, according to his station, found a unity of common purpose in destroying the oppressor. As Heather puts it:

The west Roman state fell not because of the weight of its own ?stupendous fabric,? but because its Germanic neighbours had responded to its power in ways that the Romans could never have foreseen. There is in all this a pleasing denouement. By virtue of its unbounded aggression, Roman imperialism was ultimately responsible for its own destruction.

smurphy

Social security ....well, that's probably not going to last, regardless of immigration.

Au Contraire, mon ami..n?est ce pas?


Illegals Creating Social Security Windfall

and the 1996 welfare reform bill made it illegal for illegals to recieve any means-tested welfare. They legally just get education and emergency room care (in terms of welfare). We wanna progress and not end up like those old Romans, eh? crescit eundo

 

[Pujo21]

This is The Icing on the cake for all the loyal bush supporters:mj07:


How does it feel , now, to have that knife being shoved in your own backs buy your boy ???

What happens to the immigrants who are legally waiting to come here???

You BUSH people asked for this and you got...enjoy the anarchy :142smilie

 

[smurphy]

Au Contraire, mon ami..n?est ce pas?


Illegals Creating Social Security Windfall

and the 1996 welfare reform bill made it illegal for illegals to recieve any means-tested welfare. They legally just get education and emergency room care (in terms of welfare). We wanna progress and not end up like those old Romans, eh? crescit eundo

Well, there you go. Even better.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Have got through about half of it and don't like the legislation at all so far.

One point made I adamantly agree with is if they didn't enforce simple laws before how do they remotely expect to manage these.

I will still give Chad a nod on both parties getting together to do something--now if we could get same cooperation on doing something effective.

--doubt we will see that happen as no secret both parties are afraid of losing hispanic vote--wonder what those hispanics that did things the correct way to get citizenship --think about this giveaway?
my 1st thoughts are they will follow 'their leaders" as another segment does with little knowledge of what is really coming down.

Quite ironic that most countries require certain skills or monetary requirement for you to move there--and we have the lady with the torch-
---Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses ---
--sounds like the PC thing to do but recipe for disaster

 

[ImFeklhr]

They represent a small portion of the equation, but I fell so sorry for my friends who go through so much hard work and trouble legally going to college here, or working, and trying to follow all the rules, in the hopes eventually become permanent legal residents or citizens.

It just strikes me as selfish that some people painstakingly follow the rules and still lose, while some can just skip the rules and end up fine.

I will add, that while I'm not elated when I see a mexican cooking in a Thai restaurant, by and large most of the illegals I come in contact with on a daily basis seem pretty respectable. They seem good natured, and I'm never scared to walk by a group of kitchen workers on the street.

Yeah, it would be nice to hear more English, or see a more active attempt to integrate into society, but that will eventually come. The allure of Paris Hilton, movies, and getting rich will cause integration at some point.

 

[smurphy]

--and we have the lady with the torch-
---Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses ---
--sounds like the PC thing to do but recipe for disaster

Yeah, it's been a 250 year disaster:142smilie

 

[AR182]

They represent a small portion of the equation, but I fell so sorry for my friends who go through so much hard work and trouble legally going to college here, or working, and trying to follow all the rules, in the hopes eventually become permanent legal residents or citizens.

It just strikes me as selfish that some people painstakingly follow the rules and still lose, while some can just skip the rules and end up fine.

i agree..

it's not fair that some follow the law only to get pushed back by those who do not.

shame on these politicians.

 

[smurphy]

It just strikes me as selfish that some people painstakingly follow the rules and still lose, while some can just skip the rules and end up fine.

With this legislation, there is at least a chance of this stuation becoming more fair. Without it, we will have more of the same chaos.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Yeah, it's been a 250 year disaster:142smilie

You can laugh Smurph but you'll be the generation hit the hardest when the chickens come home to roost and you will be forced to live with your convictions.

I'll go back to statement I told DJV after 2000 elections--just wait 16 years and it will be next to impossible for GOP to win national election.

I'll give you a little incite on the future by 2016 minorities will be approaching the majority--the 80/20 rule that was constant for decades and now 70/30 will approach 50/50. You will have half of citizens supporting the remaining.

The dems will have and auto 20 million spot on all national elections from minorities making the U.S. for all practicle purposes a one party country.

The price for welfare (most going to low income people--not unemployed) ssn-medicare/medicade will be horrific.

---and who will be footing these bills?? Not my generation of babyboomers--as you will be footing our bills also.

 

[Pujo21]

The Republican Party is on the eve of destruction with this bill

This bill will turn 20 million illegals into 100 million in a flash.

They will laugh at Americans because they will work for at least $ 5 an hour less..they will take many many many jobs from Americans.

George Bush has his pen ready and is not screaming veto, how come?

He is out to bust unions and the middle class working people so that they work for low wages too.

Your boy is sticking it right up you republican defense attorneys' butts that have been mewling here in this forum for the last 4 years about how great he is