Cost of Iraq
- Thread starter Jabberwocky
- Start date
Did it occur to you that if we hadn't gone into Vietnam and Iraq in the first place trying to 'win' impossible wars, that the slaughter in Cambodia and Vietnam and the certain future civil war in Iraq never would have happened?
So your plan is to engage in these ridiculous adventures and stay forever as targets?
I repeat, *as targets*. Please don't cite our troops still being in Germany, South Korea and Japan. There is no analogy to be made there, even though you've tried before about 50 times.
Since you highlighted the liberal response on Iraq, Wayne...thought I'd pose one from the conservative branch. Not only conservative, but Bush's handpicked ambassador, who certainly "goes there":
Progress in Iraq extremely disappointing: US ambassador
Published: Tuesday August 21, 2007
Iraqi political progress has been "extremely disappointing," the US ambassador in Baghdad said on Tuesday two weeks before he and the top American military commander in Iraq are to report to Congress.
"Progress on national level issues has been extremely disappopinting and frustrating to all concerned... to us, to Iraqis, and to the Iraqi leadership itself," Ryan Crocker told reporters in the Iraqi capital.
"I would suggest that... before you get meaningful reconciliation that does not just involve leaders but is phased down to society, that is going to take time," he added.
Crocker and General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, are expected to report to the US Congress by mid-September on the progress of their efforts to halt sectarian violence and return Iraq to viable self-governance.
Crocker said that the overall level of sectarian killing has come down, although he conceded, "there are spectacular car bomb attacks."
"What has been happening in the last couple of years... violence, population shift, displacement, tens of thousands of Iraqis killed. We are not just going to overcome that in a few weeks time."
Progress in Iraq extremely disappointing: US ambassador
Published: Tuesday August 21, 2007
Iraqi political progress has been "extremely disappointing," the US ambassador in Baghdad said on Tuesday two weeks before he and the top American military commander in Iraq are to report to Congress.
"Progress on national level issues has been extremely disappopinting and frustrating to all concerned... to us, to Iraqis, and to the Iraqi leadership itself," Ryan Crocker told reporters in the Iraqi capital.
"I would suggest that... before you get meaningful reconciliation that does not just involve leaders but is phased down to society, that is going to take time," he added.
Crocker and General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, are expected to report to the US Congress by mid-September on the progress of their efforts to halt sectarian violence and return Iraq to viable self-governance.
Crocker said that the overall level of sectarian killing has come down, although he conceded, "there are spectacular car bomb attacks."
"What has been happening in the last couple of years... violence, population shift, displacement, tens of thousands of Iraqis killed. We are not just going to overcome that in a few weeks time."
i think hitchens is pro-iraq war...he`s anti-christian,not anti-american.....so he`s only half-correct in edward`s eyes.....
""why not have god bless everyone on our bumper stickers?"".....
it`s called "patriotism"(you may have to look that word up,counselor)....
"To the south, in Kuala Lumpur, the capital, celebrations are starting for Malaysia’s 50th year as an independent state. Its proud achievements are modern universities, a buoyant economy and a respected place in the world as a moderate Islamic nation.
State minister Takiyuddin Hassan’s party boasts a different set of achievements: banning mini-skirts, chastising unmarried couples and renaming Kota Bharu’s favourite beauty spot. They also closed down nightclubs, banned nearly all bars except a few Chinese restaurants, where no Muslims are allowed, and refused to let a proposed cinema open unless there were separate sections for men and women.
In a sign of their clout, the American pop diva Gwen Stefani has agreed to wear traditional costumes in her Malaysian concert next week after conservative Muslim youths protested at the “indecent dressing and obscenity” of her skin-baring act. An Islamic opposition party demanded that her show next Tuesday should be cancelled. The platinum blonde star has agreed to cover up in the hope of heading off further protests.
As it celebrates 50 years of independence on August 31, Malaysia is once again debating just how Islamic it should be. Older Malays bemoan a younger generation that has become puritanical, self-righteously declining to attend social functions where alcohol is served. Headscarves, rare 20 years ago, are worn by almost all Malay women now, although often in combination with tight jeans.
As for Mr Hassan, a moderate who was once a lawyer, he is proud of his party’s achievements in Kota Bharu. He says that it has kept the rustic capital of Kelantan state upright and clean-living. The biggest building in the city is a gigantic headquarters decorated with concrete Korans where the moral enforcement department is based. Its bearded officials spend much of their time prowling parks in Kota Bharu in search of amorous young sinners.""
one would expect the brave gwen to take the same stand in malaysia that madonna did in the u.s.......
if artistic expression is more important than people's sensibilities in the u.s.why not in malaysia?
why?...because she`s scared of the islamists...yes,consistency's a bitch.....
and malaysia IS actually a moderate muslim society..as muslim societies go......for now....
yes...this is a theocracy...particularly when you throw in the random stonings,honor killings and the murdering of homosexuals....
but,eddie complains about christianity..........lol
i only wish that edward lived in a country where the first thing you hear when pick up the telephone is:
"good morning, moral enforcement department....to report a family member please press 1....to report a stranger please press 2. ...to learn about our next neighborhood purge please press 3.......if you have other business with the department please hold on and a representative will judge you shortly.".....
what a weak-kneed groveler....supports foot baths being installed in universities at tax-payers expenese......yet,goes ballistic over a christmas tree....or rotc on campus....
he`s the left incarnate....always taking the path of least resistance...
Last edited:
Did I say Higgins? Silly me, I meant Hedges, Christopher Hedges. You know, the former new york times reporter who got booed off the stage at the commencement address at some small midwestern campus a few years ago.
Patriotism. Hmmm. You know, I think only religion has cost more lives. Love of country is great but, that does not encompass love of administration. When an administration is breaking the law we should be impeaching and indicting not re-electing and commuting sentences.
My take on religion is more along the lines of Sam Harris. The above illustration regarding God Bless America and other religous right ditties is merely to illustrate Christian fundamentalists.
Now let me tune up some Bruce Springsteen and hum along to This Land is Your Land.
Eddie
Patriotism. Hmmm. You know, I think only religion has cost more lives. Love of country is great but, that does not encompass love of administration. When an administration is breaking the law we should be impeaching and indicting not re-electing and commuting sentences.
My take on religion is more along the lines of Sam Harris. The above illustration regarding God Bless America and other religous right ditties is merely to illustrate Christian fundamentalists.
Now let me tune up some Bruce Springsteen and hum along to This Land is Your Land.
Eddie
Who in the heck would want to go watch Gwen Stefani in traditional costumes - unless they are the traditional bedroom costumes of the wealthy muslim non-clerics?!? Listening to that warbling with no skin benefits could be considered a form of terra-rism, IMO.
:00x16
:00x16
eddie hates doctors and christians.....and finds patriotism just "distasteful"....
the left is still the left.... alive, well, brain-dead and trying to lead us all to oblivion.....
the left is still the left.... alive, well, brain-dead and trying to lead us all to oblivion.....
Gary:
I don't hate anyone. I do hate evil, intolerance and racism. Now I want you to hold your monitor with your left hand and your mouse with your right hand. Now sing along with me:
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Now don't you feel better. Peace, love, dove my war mongering, misguided, profiteering, intolerant, Lynn Cheney loving, evil, hate filled, murdering, neo-fascist, baby seal killing, skin headed, hellbound, global warming, internet friend.
Eddie
I don't hate anyone. I do hate evil, intolerance and racism. Now I want you to hold your monitor with your left hand and your mouse with your right hand. Now sing along with me:
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Now don't you feel better. Peace, love, dove my war mongering, misguided, profiteering, intolerant, Lynn Cheney loving, evil, hate filled, murdering, neo-fascist, baby seal killing, skin headed, hellbound, global warming, internet friend.
Eddie
Matt Its your opinion VN and Iraq are/were not winnable.
Viet Nam was all but finished until we gave them new life--Other than Laos and Cambodia I never saw an NVA (North Vietanmese regular army) dead or alive last 6 months there--they were finished--in addition I'm not sure the the south couldn't handled it on their own--had we not also cut off all funding to them at same time we left--they had tanks-plane copters ect with no ammunition-no parts ect. We left them defensely.
P.S. don't blame you for not wanting me to bring up Korea--as almost identical situations minus the "white flag" entities:SIB
On Iraq--I see your in same boat with reid already calling it lost--so little need to get into that.
I might also remind you-- Per Viet Nam and Iraq losing is/was never in picture--winning and quiting were/are only options.
GW You have to understand Edwards plight to realize what makes him tick and give him a little sympathy occasionaly.
Got to be a tough job to be of diminutive stature-with ponytail and fanny pack and go before jury and try to project powerful image and be taken seriously. Its got to take its toll eventially.
Last edited:
Wayne,
Do you believe it is possible to leave a peaceful democracy in Iraq?
When, exactly, would you have us leave? Under what conditions would you consider us being able to leave and say we 'won?'
As mentioned here many times, one could make a case that we have already 'won.' Saddam and sons are gone. There are no 'more' WMD to be found. Mission accomplished, no?
We are, and have long been, in nation building mode. Only this time, as opposed to Japan and Germany, we are trying to nation build while being shot at and blown up by about 20 different groups/tribes/sects with 20 different agendas.
And even moreso, the sectarian violence among those groups will never end, unless, ummm, another brutal dictator like Saddam comes along and seizes complete power.
Pick your poison, I guess, but I see you still don't have much of an understanding of the Middle East.
We are getting no help whatsoever politically from the Iraqi government (sic).
I guess i'm just not quite clear on what more we have a realistic chance to accomplish over there.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the above.
As far as Vietnam goes? I don't have the 10 hours it would take to address that one in full, but here's a few quick thoughts:
I agree with you on certain facts, but I think you're leaping to conclusions about what would have happened in the end.
We crushed the Viet Cong in the south during their extremely misguided Tet Offensive. Afterwards, they melted back into the hills and scurried back north. Our press definitely misrepresented what happened regarding that event.
But here's the thing and here's what happens, and what did happen, when a government lies over and over and over to the American people about the state of a conflict. You totally lose the confidence of the populous and after 8 years of heavy fighting, 8 years of being lied to, 56,000 dead, etc, that's exactly what happened.
And you know exactly what i'm talking about regarding the enormous and many lies of LBJ, McNamara, Nixon, etc., to the American people. We can blame the press for getting Tet wrong, intentionally or not, but for the previous 7 years the citizens were pissed on by our presidents and were told that it was raining.
Anyways, just because Tet was a disaster for the VC, it does not mean that they did, or were going to, give up. It's likely that they would just retreat into their 'ghost' posture that proved so successful for the previous decade. Even if North Vietnam was right on the verge of surrender, which is highly debatable, it would not have been over. Not if we left troops there.
But let's say we left troops there. Do you really think that would have prevented Vietnam and Cambodia from going to war? Would we have been caught in the middle without really being able to take sides? Yes. Would we have attempted to stop Pol Pot from doing what he did? Highly doubtful.
So I believe that even with a win/NVA surrender, that absolutely nothing would have changed in regards to the mass slaughter and brutal Vietnam/Cambodian war. Whatever the case, the entire premise of that war was ridiculous and it's just as ridiculous to blame the press and the protesters for it's outcome.
America does not have unlimited patience for extended wars with very questionable purposes, nor should it. Add in misleading, at best, information from our government, and it doesn't take much to understand how the 'mood' of the country can change fairly rapidly.
No Matt Will concede that fact to you--can't see peace there within next decade-maybe never
Would concede also that is one big diff from Viet Nam and other wars--and most valid point by far in your perspective.
I do like the idea of us having permanent base on Irans border however--just would like to see it get to point where troops are in support role vs patrols.
On Viet Nam I'll concede you also have valid point on smoke blown early in war led to many skepticle at the end-unfortunately.
I blame McNamara much more than LBJ and Nixon--not sure either of the latter especially LBJ was privvy to entire scope of what was going on.
Cambodia had no army for practical purposes and can't see them ever stepping in. South VN was becoming quite capable and had taken over much of the fighting--The NVA was done--the VC would have continued for a while in a diminished capacity but would have never been a large threat with no air or land weapons and supplies cut off from north.
I don't know how it would have turned out with South victorious but would like to think somewhere near SK outcome--but we'll never know.
A lesson to be learned from both VN and Iraq is don't start a fight the public won't have the spirit to finish.
Would concede also that is one big diff from Viet Nam and other wars--and most valid point by far in your perspective.
I do like the idea of us having permanent base on Irans border however--just would like to see it get to point where troops are in support role vs patrols.
On Viet Nam I'll concede you also have valid point on smoke blown early in war led to many skepticle at the end-unfortunately.
I blame McNamara much more than LBJ and Nixon--not sure either of the latter especially LBJ was privvy to entire scope of what was going on.
Cambodia had no army for practical purposes and can't see them ever stepping in. South VN was becoming quite capable and had taken over much of the fighting--The NVA was done--the VC would have continued for a while in a diminished capacity but would have never been a large threat with no air or land weapons and supplies cut off from north.
I don't know how it would have turned out with South victorious but would like to think somewhere near SK outcome--but we'll never know.
A lesson to be learned from both VN and Iraq is don't start a fight the public won't have the spirit to finish.
You are welcome to volunteer your services any time. I'm sure they can use you for something. Hell, they let that 70 year old woman work the Baghdad PX.
I agree. So I guess I just wonder why we'll continue to pay for and die for....what? I don't believe leaving Iraq is a 'defeat.'
Yes, the Middle East is an entirely different animal. Again, i'll refer to the mighty Soviets rolling up on the pea-shooting Afgans for 8 years.
Agree somewhat on the first thing, and totally on the second. The problem is that the Iraqi poilice force and 'Army' (sic) are loyal only to their sects and not to the Iraqi state. This problem is probably the biggest, in the long run.
Yes, I suppose, but ultimately, the Commander in chief is responsible for this sort of crap. McNamara was a total disaster and a first class liar. However, LBJ took him at his word at every turn. Much like Bush and Rummy/Cheney.
Nixon campaigned in '68 on the platform of rapidly getting the troops out with a 'secret plan.' He immediately sent more troops in after he got elected. My God, what a f*cked up war that was.
For sure Cambodia had no real military. Not really. However, when Vietnam attacked them in 1975, the Soviet Union supported them. Not really sure what you mean about Cambodia not stepping in. Stepping in to what? My point was that Vietnam still would have invaded Cambodia whether we were still in Vietnam or not in 1975 and the resulting massacres in that war would have still happened.
As far as Pol Pot, he had taken power and started his massacre/killing fields two years before we left.
So my point, based on facts, is that our 'withdrawal' did not 'cause' the mass slaughter of anybody.
Even if it had, the 'entrance' should be blamed, not the exit.
I think it's possible, but not probable. But like you say, we can never know.
A better lesson is for our leaders to take two minutes to try to understand the history, customs, mores of our 'enemy', and not assume that because we can blow shit up, that we can impose our will and our way of life on whoever we please.
