DEAN SMITH Question

[BuckwheatJWN]

Does anyone have Dean Smith's Final Four record as a favorite? Granted he was a great coach, but it seems he was probably a favorite in a lot Final Fours and didn't win........The whole "4 corners offense " was great for moving college basketball to a shot clock and a better TV game, but I never understood why the "BEST" team would use it until the closing minutes of a game. ADDED Seems like he lost a "big" game or 2 by going into it too early... Just an observation and question for some of you who know the game better than me. :0008 Not an anti Dean Smith rant

 

[WildBillPicks7]

Does anyone have Dean Smith's Final Four record as a favorite? Granted he was a great coach, but it seems he was probably a favorite in a lot Final Fours and didn't win........The whole "4 corners offense " was great for moving college basketball to a shot clock and a better TV game, but I never understood why the "BEST" team would use it until the closing minutes of a game. ADDED Seems like he lost a "big" game or 2 by going into it too early... Just an observation and question for some of you who know the game better than me. :0008 Not an anti Dean Smith rant

You aren't going to find many with this Final Four record: "11 Final Fours, championships in 1982 and 1993, years his team's went to the Final 4 = Dean Smith 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997". He finished as runner up or in top 3 in, 1968, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1991 and 1995.

 

[lowell]

Lost 1977 title game to Marquette and Al Mcquire.
Tie game with twelve minutes to go and Smith goes to Four Corners. One of the few times they lost the game doing 4 Corners. 67-59 Marquette.

 

[WildBillPicks7]

Lost 1977 title game to Marquette and Al Mcquire.
Tie game with twelve minutes to go and Smith goes to Four Corners. One of the few times they lost the game doing 4 Corners. 67-59 Marquette.

Would that have been the Bo Ellis, Walton and Butch Lee team for Al and MarQ?

 

[WildBillPicks7]

Would that have been the Bo Ellis, Walton and Butch Lee team for Al and MarQ?

Jerome Whitehead, a forgotten, big man!!

:0008

 

[Old School]

Jerome Whitehead, a forgotten, big man!!

:0008

he was a beast...

 

[Old School]

[SUP]
Butch Lee and Bo Ellis on that team..


same year UCLA had the player of the year and lost to Utah in the second round..

[/SUP]

 

[BuckwheatJWN]

Lost 1977 title game to Marquette and Al Mcquire.
Tie game with twelve minutes to go and Smith goes to Four Corners. One of the few times they lost the game doing 4 Corners. 67-59 Marquette.

One of the one's I remember. I was a big Marquette and Al McGuire fan at the time.

 

[WildBillPicks7]

I remember the 4 corner offense and it drove me nuts to see teams playing keep away, hence, the acquisition of the play clock, which helped growth and interest in the sport, now if they could just cut the time to within 5 secs of the NBA clock and call more fouls and move the 3 pt line to the NBA line.

 

[BuckwheatJWN]

I think the shot clock for the last 2-3 minutes of the college game should be shortened by 5 -10 seconds to eliminate the countless fouls we see when teams are down late......I'm probably fine with the present clock till then. The Pro clock seems to work better late in the game when a coach must decide to foul or just play good defense for 24 seconds..........My original question was not meant to deman coach Smith but to figure out if he was actually more of a superior recruiter than a great bench coach. It was easy to look up his final four appearances, but did he lose a lot of them when he was the number one or 2 seed? I know a lot of early ones were won by UCLA teams.....And his 2 wins were made more possible by "bonehead" plays of the opposition. ....... As an example something I do easily recall is Marv Levy's 4 straight Super Bowl loses. According to POINT SPREADS the only one Buffalo had a legitimate chance in is the first one. A person could look at those scores and claim Marv couldn't win the BIG ONE....True fans, know differently.

 

[#cruncher]

I think the shot clock for the last 2-3 minutes of the college game should be shortened by 5 -10 seconds to eliminate the countless fouls we see when teams are down late......I'm probably fine with the present clock till then. The Pro clock seems to work better late in the game when a coach must decide to foul or just play good defense for 24 seconds..........My original question was not meant to deman coach Smith but to figure out if he was actually more of a superior recruiter than a great bench coach. It was easy to look up his final four appearances, but did he lose a lot of them when he was the number one or 2 seed? I know a lot of early ones were won by UCLA teams.....And his 2 wins were made more possible by "bonehead" plays of the opposition. ....... As an example something I do easily recall is Marv Levy's 4 straight Super Bowl loses. According to POINT SPREADS the only one Buffalo had a legitimate chance in is the first one. A person could look at those scores and claim Marv couldn't win the BIG ONE....True fans, know differently.

I think the great coach, great recruiter kind of go together because if you can't coach your not going to continue to get good players. As a fan of another team, Dean was my worst nightmare; that's my ultimate compliment to him, but he was obviously a great person also.

 

[Big Daddy]

My take on the 4 corner offense -

First off, I am a former college player from that era (mid 70's). Our coach was a Dean Smith disciple. You have to remember there was no shot clock, but more importantly, no 3 point line. It was less important at that time for the defense to have to extend themselves out to guard long range shooters. Defenses could just clog up the middle, and if a guy hits a 22 footer, so be it. It was still only 2 points.

We had good teams, but not a lot of pure shooters. We were at our best when running a pick & roll, motion type offense. It was hard to do against a packed-in zone. We wanted to force them into playing man to man defense and spread out the floor, which played to our strength. One of the rules in college basketball at that time (which no longer exists because of the shot clock), was that the team that was behind on the scoreboard must initiate play, and if the game was tied, the defense must initiate play. If the team with the ball was tied or ahead, they could go into the 4 corners to spread the court and force the defense to come out and guard them. If they didn't, the official would give a warning to the coach to make his team go out and defend. If after a few seconds they still didn't do it, a technical was called.

Now remember, you could only run the 4 corners if you were tied or ahead in the game (as North Carolina usually was). It was not really meant to slow down the game, in fact, it was more to speed up play and force the other team to play at a faster pace by making them come out of their packed-in zones and spread the floor to create more movement and motion.

Hope I explained it so it makes sense.

 

[Big Daddy]

Jerome Whitehead, a forgotten, big man!!

:0008

I was fortunate to have played against him when we were both High School seniors. Good ballplayer.

 

[Four Corners]

My take on the 4 corner offense -

First off, I am a former college player from that era (mid 70's). Our coach was a Dean Smith disciple. You have to remember there was no shot clock, but more importantly, no 3 point line. It was less important at that time for the defense to have to extend themselves out to guard long range shooters. Defenses could just clog up the middle, and if a guy hits a 22 footer, so be it. It was still only 2 points.

We had good teams, but not a lot of pure shooters. We were at our best when running a pick & roll, motion type offense. It was hard to do against a packed-in zone. We wanted to force them into playing man to man defense and spread out the floor, which played to our strength. One of the rules in college basketball at that time (which no longer exists because of the shot clock), was that the team that was behind on the scoreboard must initiate play, and if the game was tied, the defense must initiate play. If the team with the ball was tied or ahead, they could go into the 4 corners to spread the court and force the defense to come out and guard them. If they didn't, the official would give a warning to the coach to make his team go out and defend. If after a few seconds they still didn't do it, a technical was called.

Now remember, you could only run the 4 corners if you were tied or ahead in the game (as North Carolina usually was). It was not really meant to slow down the game, in fact, it was more to speed up play and force the other team to play at a faster pace by making them come out of their packed-in zones and spread the floor to create more movement and motion.

Hope I explained it so it makes sense.

Excellent points as the game has changed so much thru the years. Phil Ford is my all-time fav ( see my call sign). I played HS ball in Va. and our coach was a former manager so we ran their system. It was such an honor and made me appreciate him even more.

 

[Big Daddy]

Excellent points as the game has changed so much thru the years. Phil Ford is my all-time fav ( see my call sign). I played HS ball in Va. and our coach was a former manager so we ran their system. It was such an honor and made me appreciate him even more.

Yes, the game has really changed. Can't believe our team just had a 40 year reunion.

 

[#cruncher]

My take on the 4 corner offense -

First off, I am a former college player from that era (mid 70's). Our coach was a Dean Smith disciple. You have to remember there was no shot clock, but more importantly, no 3 point line. It was less important at that time for the defense to have to extend themselves out to guard long range shooters. Defenses could just clog up the middle, and if a guy hits a 22 footer, so be it. It was still only 2 points.

We had good teams, but not a lot of pure shooters. We were at our best when running a pick & roll, motion type offense. It was hard to do against a packed-in zone. We wanted to force them into playing man to man defense and spread out the floor, which played to our strength. One of the rules in college basketball at that time (which no longer exists because of the shot clock), was that the team that was behind on the scoreboard must initiate play, and if the game was tied, the defense must initiate play. If the team with the ball was tied or ahead, they could go into the 4 corners to spread the court and force the defense to come out and guard them. If they didn't, the official would give a warning to the coach to make his team go out and defend. If after a few seconds they still didn't do it, a technical was called.

Now remember, you could only run the 4 corners if you were tied or ahead in the game (as North Carolina usually was). It was not really meant to slow down the game, in fact, it was more to speed up play and force the other team to play at a faster pace by making them come out of their packed-in zones and spread the floor to create more movement and motion.

Hope I explained it so it makes sense.

What about the teams that played man to man defense all the time; what would have been it's purpose then?

 

[Four Corners]

What about the teams that played man to man defense all the time; what would have been it's purpose then?

In that case they would spread them out (if ahead). Phil Ford, who was the centerpiece most associated with the 4Corners, could cut on a dime and was notorious for back door passes to players cutting from the baseline corner. Schools were not used to this offense and would have had a hard time simulating it in practice the way Phil ran it. He was the master with his quickness.

 

[Big Daddy]

In that case they would spread them out (if ahead). Phil Ford, who was the centerpiece most associated with the 4Corners, could cut on a dime and was notorious for back door passes to players cutting from the baseline corner. Schools were not used to this offense and would have had a hard time simulating it in practice the way Phil ran it. He was the master with his quickness.

Exactly. It was used to spread out the floor and create more passing and driving lanes.

 

[Big Daddy]

It also wasn't something you used for 40 minutes. It was simply a way to force the other team to play your style of ball and at your pace. Once you did that, you could run your regular offense. It was especially effective the last few minutes of the game when defenses had to try and double team to try and get the ball back, leaving guys wide open for easy layups.

Again, it only worked if you had the lead or were tied, so it wasn't something that you could always count on doing. It worked great for Dean, since his teams rarely got behind. Bad teams couldn't run it even if they wanted to.