"Don't panic...We're Hispanic!"
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What really bothers me about all of this is that the media puts this on their front pages, but you see NOTHING about the millions of voters that passed Prop 187 in CA a few years back only to have the 9th circuit court of appeals overturn what the people of CA voted for. What also strikes me funny is that so many feel it's OK to break the law.
This is a real hard deal...everybody agrees something needs to be done about this problem, but, business, and not just Ag guys, have prepetuated the problem by continuing to hire illegal aliens.
I once attended a training session put on by a business association's legal firm. Their advice was that we could keep on hiring these illegal aliens because we were not I.N.S. employees, so, We were not responsible for verifying the authenticity of their "papers." Well, in my opinion, that left the doors open for more and more to come in.
As for Prop 187, it was illegal from its inception so it was overturned. The majority who passed it at the ballot box were not at fault, but the people who framed it in the beginning, they didn't do all their homework.
I once attended a training session put on by a business association's legal firm. Their advice was that we could keep on hiring these illegal aliens because we were not I.N.S. employees, so, We were not responsible for verifying the authenticity of their "papers." Well, in my opinion, that left the doors open for more and more to come in.
As for Prop 187, it was illegal from its inception so it was overturned. The majority who passed it at the ballot box were not at fault, but the people who framed it in the beginning, they didn't do all their homework.
seems that big business and some politicians motivated by nothing more than their own self interests keep the will of the majority of the citizens on hold...
cheap labor units for one side, potential voters for the other-an unholy alliance .....the minute men labeled as bigots and vigilantes...for basically trying to do what the government doesn`t have the will to do..
bush sucks on this issue...really galls me that bush would label the minutemen derogatorily...
vigilante: ""one who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands"".....
these guys aren't vigilantes in any sense....they're more like a neighborhood watch....
and extreme factions of the dems now saying that its discriminatory for people to have to show identification to vote?....
???? more gobbledygoop...
cheap labor units for one side, potential voters for the other-an unholy alliance .....the minute men labeled as bigots and vigilantes...for basically trying to do what the government doesn`t have the will to do..
bush sucks on this issue...really galls me that bush would label the minutemen derogatorily...
vigilante: ""one who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands"".....
these guys aren't vigilantes in any sense....they're more like a neighborhood watch....
and extreme factions of the dems now saying that its discriminatory for people to have to show identification to vote?....
???? more gobbledygoop...
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This isn't just a Bush deal, it's every president since the 50's. In my opinion, The cheap labor is definitely the main ram-rod of the whole deal.
Fairly open borders have almost always existed in the U.S. That SHOULD have changed after 9/11. This is 2006 and the world has changed for all of us, it should also change for the U.S. borders.
Big Business and Farmers alike just need to pay higher wages so that "Americans" will want to do that type of work...so we have to pay a buck-fifty for a head of lettuce...screw it...it if it will stop the in-flow, so be it.
Fairly open borders have almost always existed in the U.S. That SHOULD have changed after 9/11. This is 2006 and the world has changed for all of us, it should also change for the U.S. borders.
Big Business and Farmers alike just need to pay higher wages so that "Americans" will want to do that type of work...so we have to pay a buck-fifty for a head of lettuce...screw it...it if it will stop the in-flow, so be it.
Bush has this issue right. Re immigration:
Have we stopped to do an accounting of what immigration has done for us on the plus side of the ledger?
First, US native population is dropping. That is, the number of babies born to those born here is not keeping up with deaths. Its the same worldwide in the industrialized countries. Since a falling population is bad for the economy, a liberal immigration policy has been adopted by these countries because it makes wise economic sense.
Second, and most obvious, immigration builds a hidden savings into many businesses across the entire spectrum of the economy. What we pay for most services would go up across the board if employers could not get access to cheap labor
Third, what is a wall at the border going to cost us to build and maintain? As with most government construction projects, it will come in way over budget. And then there?s the cost of having to police the wall.
Finally, health and education costs. Educating people never costs, it pays. Large masses of uneducated people are a bad thing. And as long as they are here, let?s make sure they are healthy, and not spreading disease and illnesses. It?s the least we can do for them if we insist on hiring them to pick our fruit, clean our houses, and prepare our food.
Lets not forget the example America sets for the world.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, The New Colossus, 1883
Have we stopped to do an accounting of what immigration has done for us on the plus side of the ledger?
First, US native population is dropping. That is, the number of babies born to those born here is not keeping up with deaths. Its the same worldwide in the industrialized countries. Since a falling population is bad for the economy, a liberal immigration policy has been adopted by these countries because it makes wise economic sense.
Second, and most obvious, immigration builds a hidden savings into many businesses across the entire spectrum of the economy. What we pay for most services would go up across the board if employers could not get access to cheap labor
Third, what is a wall at the border going to cost us to build and maintain? As with most government construction projects, it will come in way over budget. And then there?s the cost of having to police the wall.
Finally, health and education costs. Educating people never costs, it pays. Large masses of uneducated people are a bad thing. And as long as they are here, let?s make sure they are healthy, and not spreading disease and illnesses. It?s the least we can do for them if we insist on hiring them to pick our fruit, clean our houses, and prepare our food.
Lets not forget the example America sets for the world.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, The New Colossus, 1883
nice try,jc....
all due respect...
while the news reporters talked about illegal workers who perform jobs americans refuse to perform, they continue to avoid mentioning the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants who prey on men, women and children -- u.s.. citizens....
it is these innocent americans who are murdered, raped and robbed because of an insane immigration policy...
and it is insane..you have to be insane to spout that pro big business garbage..
we have absolutelt NO CONTROL over who crosses our borders...that`s insane.....
. criminal aliens are entering the u.s. in the tens of thousands and remaining here as they join violent gangs such as ms-13, or they choose to commit their mayhem solo...
i also love it when that old canard about illegals "doing the work americans wont do" gets drug out of the closet.......
this is dragged out everytime a debate is started on illegal immigration.....high school and college kids used to pick up a lot of those jobs but even they`ve been driven out by illegals.....
kids in my cousin`s state used to do a lot of the agricultural jobs in the summer for extra money, but the laws were changed to "protect" them from being exploited for child labor and they`ve been shut out by aliens with no such scruples.....
americans competing against people that pay no social security tax, no labor and industry tax, no unemployment tax and are willing to live 10 to a house to pool their costs so they can mail more money home to mexico?......
i hate unions...but,theres a limit..
after they get done driving the working conditions down for any job that doesn`t require a college degree we`ll be told "oh well, americans dont want those jobs anyway"..... the part about labor conditions and standards will be conveniently left out......
there is no point sealing the doors of your house to deter burglars and then leave the windows open.....and then call your neighbors, who kindly watch whether somebody climbs through your windows, "vigilantes".
all due respect...
while the news reporters talked about illegal workers who perform jobs americans refuse to perform, they continue to avoid mentioning the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants who prey on men, women and children -- u.s.. citizens....
it is these innocent americans who are murdered, raped and robbed because of an insane immigration policy...
and it is insane..you have to be insane to spout that pro big business garbage..
we have absolutelt NO CONTROL over who crosses our borders...that`s insane.....
. criminal aliens are entering the u.s. in the tens of thousands and remaining here as they join violent gangs such as ms-13, or they choose to commit their mayhem solo...
i also love it when that old canard about illegals "doing the work americans wont do" gets drug out of the closet.......
this is dragged out everytime a debate is started on illegal immigration.....high school and college kids used to pick up a lot of those jobs but even they`ve been driven out by illegals.....
kids in my cousin`s state used to do a lot of the agricultural jobs in the summer for extra money, but the laws were changed to "protect" them from being exploited for child labor and they`ve been shut out by aliens with no such scruples.....
americans competing against people that pay no social security tax, no labor and industry tax, no unemployment tax and are willing to live 10 to a house to pool their costs so they can mail more money home to mexico?......
i hate unions...but,theres a limit..
after they get done driving the working conditions down for any job that doesn`t require a college degree we`ll be told "oh well, americans dont want those jobs anyway"..... the part about labor conditions and standards will be conveniently left out......
there is no point sealing the doors of your house to deter burglars and then leave the windows open.....and then call your neighbors, who kindly watch whether somebody climbs through your windows, "vigilantes".
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Nothing will ever be done about this. May as well just move on. I don't really care either way - fact is many illegals take the scrub jobs. Maybe one day the economy will be bad enough that Americans will want them back. Until then, nothing will really be done - despite whatever political rhetoric is spouted.
Thing that frustrates me is the accusations of racism against people who want to stop illegal immigration. It's ridiculous. Most people just want the law to be followed, so they can feel there's some consistency in our society. The current situation feels more like anarchy than anything else.
Thing that frustrates me is the accusations of racism against people who want to stop illegal immigration. It's ridiculous. Most people just want the law to be followed, so they can feel there's some consistency in our society. The current situation feels more like anarchy than anything else.
The farms these dudes are working on are not your little family joints. Let them come and work week to week. Only if there really is no American standing there wanting a job. Or make them go back and come in thru proper immigration laws. But no more free health care or education here. Either who they work for pays or they go back and get there help in Mexico. Or another way for those young enough. Let them earn there citizenship by serving four years in the service. Army, Marines, Air force I don't care. We need a cap on how many a year. Once we get the first 12 million figured out.
I was one of those kids doing the agricultural work, and yes, THE LAWS were changed! So today kids cannot go out there and do that same type of work...
One thing about the taxes, in California anyway, the illegal immigrants are taxed via payroll taxes...most of them don't file because they are afraid of getting caught, so those taxes are a freebie for the government...maybe that is another reason they won't take a stand.
I believe the borders definitely need to be tightened, like I said in another post, this is 2006...time for a change in policy...we need to elect some politicians with balls.
One thing about the taxes, in California anyway, the illegal immigrants are taxed via payroll taxes...most of them don't file because they are afraid of getting caught, so those taxes are a freebie for the government...maybe that is another reason they won't take a stand.
I believe the borders definitely need to be tightened, like I said in another post, this is 2006...time for a change in policy...we need to elect some politicians with balls.
I am going to have to further educate myself on this issue. There must be more to it than just allowing illegal aliens to cross the border legally to work. At face value, I don't think that illegal aliens should be allowed to work in this country if they do not become citizens. But I'm sure that's too simplistic a view of the situation. I don't know how you can tell a good non-citizen from a bad one all the time, and when someone is going to work and someone is going to hang out with a gang all day and make his money by breaking the law. Who takes the time to follow through with what everyone is doing? The police? Social case workers? How do you allow people to use our country and some of the services and not do what other citizens are required to do? I just don't know. I'm sure that many of the illegals just come here, work hard, go home, and provide for their family.
I'm sure that many business owners take full advantage of the situation to make more money. No benefits, no payroll taxes, no decent wage, just employ people at a low rate of pay to get jobs done. They can also probably out-bid other companies who do those things for jobs, which is not a good thing, either. I would think this would be a supply and demand kind of thing with the jobs. If they are not willing to pay people enough, then they won't get workers. To say that these are jobs that Americans won't do seems too simplistic to me. They might not do it for dirt wages and no benefits, and they may be taking advantage of our system to avoid these jobs, and that should be looked at and perhaps dealt with, too.
I think Bush's statement about following our current laws is probably a decent way to look at it. But I need to get more information on the laws and the ways they are being worked around.
I'm sure that many business owners take full advantage of the situation to make more money. No benefits, no payroll taxes, no decent wage, just employ people at a low rate of pay to get jobs done. They can also probably out-bid other companies who do those things for jobs, which is not a good thing, either. I would think this would be a supply and demand kind of thing with the jobs. If they are not willing to pay people enough, then they won't get workers. To say that these are jobs that Americans won't do seems too simplistic to me. They might not do it for dirt wages and no benefits, and they may be taking advantage of our system to avoid these jobs, and that should be looked at and perhaps dealt with, too.
I think Bush's statement about following our current laws is probably a decent way to look at it. But I need to get more information on the laws and the ways they are being worked around.
smurphy said:
Totally agree. I don't see this issue ever being taken care of, even if it was possible.
The consistency factor is the huge issue for me. I have friends, coworkers etc. who go through hell trying to immigrate the legal way.
My roommate for almost 2 years, struggled with the process of coming over from Taiwan and being able to stay after he graduated college. These are the type of people, who, for basically the first 3-5 years they live here, do nothing but give financially to the US.
Paying the highest rates for schools, paying into the housing market, the retail market, and on and on. And he basically didn't use any government services or need them.
It is so dissapointing to see people honestly working within the legality of the system (and sometimes lose and have to go home), and then turn on the TV and people complaining about how people who don't even try to work within the system ignore the rules and do whatever they want.
