fantastic article by a writer from the middle eastern times.......maybe there`s hope.

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
Opinion: The Muslim mind is on fire
Youssef M. Ibrahim
July 26, 2005

DUBAI -- The world of Islam is on fire. Indeed, the Muslim mind is on fire. Above all, the West is now ready to take both of them on.

The latest reliable report confirms that on average 33 Iraqis die every day, executed by Iraqis and foreign jihadis and suicide bombers, not by US or British soldiers. In fact, fewer than ever US or British soldiers are dying since the invasion more than two years ago. Instead, we now watch on television hundreds of innocent Iraqis lying without limbs, bleeding in the streets dead or wounded for life. If this is jihad someone got his religious education completely upside down.

Palestine is on fire, too, with Palestinian armed groups fighting one another - Hamas against Fatah and all against the Palestinian Authority. All have rendered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas impotent and have diminished the world's respect and sympathy for Palestinian sufferings.

A couple of weeks ago London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.

Madrid was on fire, too, last year, when Muslim jihadis blew up train stations killing 160 people and wounding a few thousands.

The excuse in all the above cases was the war in Iraq, but let us not forget that in September 2001, long before Iraq, Osama Bin Laden proudly announced that he ordered the killing of some 3,000 in the United States, in the name of avenging Islam. Let us not forget that the killing began a long time before the invasion of Iraq.

Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam. They killed innocent tourists and natives in Morocco and Egypt, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Yemen, all done in the name of Islam by Muslims who say that they are better than all other Muslims. They killed in India, in Thailand and are now talking of killing in Germany and Denmark and so on. There were attacks with bombs that killed scores inside Shia and Sunni mosques, inside churches and inside synagogues in Turkey and Tunisia, with Muslim preachers saying that it is okay to kill Jews and Christians - the so called infidels.

Above all, it is the Muslim mind that is on fire.

The Muslim fundamentalist who attacked the Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands, stabbed him more than 23 times then cut his throat. He recently proudly proclaimed at his trial: "I did it because my religion - Islam - dictated it and I would do it again if were free." Which preacher told this guy this is Islam? That preacher should be in jail with him.

Do the cowardly jihadis who recruit suicide bombers really think that they will force the US Army and British troops out of Iraq by killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis? US troops now have bases and operate in Iraq but also from Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman.

The only accomplishment of jihadis is that now they have aroused the great "Western Tiger". There was a time when the United States and Europe welcomed Arab and Muslim immigrants, visitors and students, with open arms. London even allowed all dissidents escaping their countries to preach against those countries under the guise of political refugees.

Well, that is all over now. Time has become for the big Western vengeance.

Visas for Arab and Muslim young men will be impossible to get for the United States and Western Europe. Those working there will be expelled if they are illegal, and harassed even if their papers are in order.

Airlines will have to right to refuse boarding to passengers if their names even resemble names on a prohibited list on all flights heading to Europe and the United States.

What is more important to remember is this: When the West did unite after World War II to beat communism, the long Cold War began without pity. They took no prisoners. They all stood together, from the United States to Norway, from Britain to Spain, from Belgium to Switzerland. And they did bring down the biggest empire. Communism collapsed.

I fear those na?ve Muslims who think that they are beating the West have now achieved their worst crime of all. The West is now going to war against not only Muslims, but also, sadly, Islam as a religion.

In this new cold and hot war, car bombs and suicide bombers here and there will be no match for the arsenal that those Westerners are putting together - an arsenal of laws, intelligence pooling, surveillance by satellites, armies of special forces and indeed, allies inside the Arab world who are tired of having their lives disrupted by demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who, under the guise of preaching, do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity.
 

Marco

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 29, 2003
793
0
0
I think the article misses in regard that the terrorists who strap on a bomb to die could really care less because some distant cousin was refused a scholarship or couldn't board a plane.....

There appears to be two different and distinct groups of arabs/muslims here.....one being friendly and the other hostile.....

Cramping the friendlies lifestyle won't change the agenda of the fanatical hostiles......

So here's a question for debate......Let's say the US and/or a number of countries decide to blanket the whole arab race with racism and deny any arab rights and/or deport, or not allow them into the country...basically openly discriminate like what happened in the south to blacks and to the point where arabs are being shipped out........is there enough of a dependence on thier oil reserves that if they decided to cut off thier oil supply in retaliation for the mass discrimination......?????

Just a point to ponder, how does that scenario play out.....
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
well,marco...let me respond to just one of your litany of excessively negative posts....

""I think the article misses in regard that the terrorists who strap on a bomb to die could really care less because some distant cousin was refused a scholarship or couldn't board a plane"".....

""Cramping the friendlies lifestyle won't change the agenda of the fanatical hostiles......

""There appears to be two different and distinct groups of arabs/muslims here.....one being friendly and the other hostile.""....

no, they don`t care...about getting a decent education...or human life...or humanity...or destroying and perverting their own religion...ruining opportunity for fellow muslims...

the point your missing is that this writer...and i assume there are more like him...are growing tired of being hamstrung by their more radical brethren...and that is a very important point....

if we are to believe muslim spokesmen from around the world,it`s a small minority that are the monsters...and that they are perverting the religion to fit their own agenda....the majority abhors this violence...

that is...if we are to believe the "so called"moderates...some believe it`s just lip service........

""So here's a question for debate......Let's say the US and/or a number of countries decide to blanket the whole arab race with racism and deny any arab rights and/or deport, or not allow them into the country...basically openly discriminate like what happened in the south to blacks and to the point where arabs are being shipped out""....

heres where your negativity....your u.s.` loathing....your loser`s liberal mentality that i sincerely hope you don`t apply in your daily life...has me shaking my head...

thanks to extremely stupid and naive liberal philosophy taken to the nth degree...mostly in europe....and by our own media....and some of our own politicians.....by guys like yourself,marco....and europe is full of marco`s...that`s why the war on terror may fail.....

burn down a mosque in zimbabwe... arrest christians in saudi arabia, or slaughter africans in dafur or sudan... and both the western left and the middle east’s hard right won’t say a word....bomb resorts....bomb innocent school children....civilians...muslims purposefully..... doesn`t resonate with america’s critics as much as a false story of a flushed koran... the gripes aren`t about the lives of real people, but the psychological hurts and angst and warped ideology of those who in their various ways don’t like the u.s....

the reason it thrives is because of self hating,stupid comments and analogy`s like this....again...i have to repeat this...

""let`s say the US and/or a number of countries decide to blanket the whole arab race with racism and deny any arab rights and/or deport, or not allow them into the country...basically openly discriminate like what happened in the south to blacks and to the point where arabs are being shipped out""...

i have to ask this....are you seriously comparing slavery to fighting terrorism?...

are you saying that it`s discrimination to enforce immigration laws and decide who can enter this country?....to expel dangerous illegals is wrong?....the government can`t do everything in it`s power to protect it`s citizens?...including limiting immigration and/or access of foreigners to america`s bounty? ....

what can i say?...we are racists trampling foreigners` rights to kill our citizens and destroy our country and our economy....

interesting logic...bizarro logic....the kind of logic that empowers the enemy...

marco...you are living,breathing proof that many in this country have lost confidence in their old commitment to rationalism and now embrace the deductive near-religious doctrine of moral equivalence and utopian pacifism.....and continue your guilt ridden searrch for something we did to cause this....

so, rather than focus our attention on the madrassas and the mosques that preach hatred, we will strive to learn more about islamic culture, as if our own insensitivity were the true culprit.....

our grandfathers could despise bushido — japan’s warrior cult — without worrying whether they were being unfair to buddhists; ..the guilt ridden impeders...you of less conviction...the self haters...the politicos that put politics ahead of their country....just don`t get it...our grandfathers roll over in their graves..

........""is there enough of a dependence on thier oil reserves that if they decided to cut off thier oil supply in retaliation for the mass discrimination""


unfortunately,the writer`s assertion that the west will act as a monolith vs the radical islamist threat,as of this conversation,is a pipe dream..as is marco`s assertion that muslim states will collectively boycott u.s oil consumption.....although,terrorist actions of late may be swinging the pendulum in our favor.....


because if the west really did pull together to stifle the radical movement...and collectively turned the screws....as the writer presupposes....the terrorist threat would wither and die...and saddam would never have been invaded...that is,if the u.n. hadn`t been corrupt...if there had been a united front against him....

you really think these monsters control the middle east`s oil?......think again...and who do you think keeps that from happening?

you don`t think that the saudi`s and the kuwaiti`s and the egyptians and the jordanians...,whom we protect from these fanantics....and who depend on our oil consumption for their livlihood...are worried about us protecting ourselves from a common enemy?....

you think the egyptians enjoy having their tourism industry decimated by these monsters?...

this is where they are making a big mistake,imo...england...where they could plot and plan with impunity..afghanistan west.....england...maybe 5 times more liberal than the u.s....who left the radicals to their own devices..

..bad strategy by the terrorists as of late....england and the egyptian resort were boners...they should have kept trying to hit us...

now people...even in the middle east...are hopefully getting it...

fatwas being issued...britain cracking down...the netherlands getting tough...deporting radicals...even the french are getting tougher...

maybe the saudi`s and the rest share their hatred of us....but they need us....

they don`t exist without us...that`s like asking china to stop sending textiles to the u.s....they might as well blow up their own economy...

don`t hold your breath waiting for that oil embargo...

marco...ease up on the moral equivalence...the self hatred...we have hospitals in iraq that care for the injured terrorists...the same care that our g.i.`s get(and that galls me)....we racists give them care....they chop our heads off...
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,505
188
63
Bowling Green Ky
"So here's a question for debate......Let's say the US and/or a number of countries decide to blanket the whole arab race with racism and deny any arab rights and/or deport, or not allow them into the country...basically openly discriminate like what happened in the south to blacks and to the point where arabs are being shipped out........is there enough of a dependence on thier oil reserves that if they decided to cut off thier oil supply in retaliation for the mass discrimination......?????"

Don't see comarision to blacks as valid--how many were flying planes into buildings and trying to set off nukes here??

Fact-- there are Islam fantics trying to severly hurt us--you have to weigh the safeguard with the risks.

I eally don't think--
making sure you get them attorney before questioning--have media promote mistreatment of terrorist-- not allow profiling--but letting them openly preach hate and recruit terrorist in mosques--and by all means let that include burning a few flags--internet instructions on bomb making ect--have fund drives for suicide bombers ect.
--will get the job done.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
We better see if we can stop half of So America from getting in here first. We have no idea whats in that mix. Our bombers? Stopping a few at airports and raiding some homes may slow the Arabs some. Not giving Visa's to others may help. But I'm not sure you will ever stop the ones that want to do some thing real big with any of those ideas.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
since when do foreigners have the "right" to come to america?..or any country?...isn`t it their sovereign right to control their own immigration policies?......

isn`t immigration a privelege for those wanting to come here........a privelege to come to the west to pursue a better quality of life....not to wreak havoc and kill it`s citizens....

and isn`t the ability to control the influx of a certain group..an indirect way to put some pressure on that community.... to be more proactive in helping defeat the bad guys among them....

is that unconstitutional?....not unless the constitution is now a suicide pact...

it`s absolutly amazing....in britain...that several of the terrorists were asylum seekers that britain took in when they were children...only to be repaid with treason.....

that`s it...i`m done for awhile for real...lol

tear me up,guys......i`m taking a rest.......

see you in the boxing and football forums...

nothing personal ,marco...
 

Marco

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 29, 2003
793
0
0
My question for debate was merely an extreme version of what was written in the first post of this thread about "western vengeance" and what Mr. Ibrahim wrote:

"Visas for Arab and Muslim young men will be impossible to get for the United States and Western Europe. Those working here will be expelled if they are illegal, and harrassed even if thier papers are in order."

"Airlines will have the right to refuse boarding to passengers if thier names even resemble names on a prohibited list on all flights heading to Europe and the United States."

My reference to blacks was perfectly twisted....I was refering to DISCRIMINATION and not TERRORISM when referring to the way the blacks were treated in the South......the Arabs here have yet to experience the discrimination that the blacks have faced in the history of this nation....sometimes I wonder what the black man was fighting for in WWII....the chance to come back home and be called a n1gger, while his white neighbors enjoy the freedoms he helped preserve for them that he himself didn't have?

What I was presenting was a scenario where the Arab world being thoroughly discriminated against decided to do business deals with China and let the rest of the world clamor for whatever oil they could milk out of Venezuela....I'm sure that the collective OPEC nations, if they so chose to, could choke most of the planet off just by cutting off the oil supply....who says they have to produce a quota of what the world wants???..how long do you think the US could run if gas prices quadrupled?

Who says the Arabs have to deal with the US or Western Europe? Do we have a monopoly on the food supply that if we starved them out we could actually get along without that precious oil and there's nobody else on the planet they could deal with to provide food?

I was merely presenting a question for debate, not actually saying we should start shipping out the brown people or start a version of the kkk that targets arabs....I can honestly see measures taken to screen out the bad guys, all while some of you have twisted it into me saying that everyone should be able to go anywhere unimpeded and uncontrolled......

The author, Mr. Ibrahim, may be correct in stating that the friendly arabs are sick of the reputation they are getting from the actions of the terrorist elements among thier race......

However sick the rest of the arabs are, what is thier recourse against the bad apples of thier race.......how are they going to deal with the terrorists or insurgents or whatever you want to call them that are ruining the rep for arabs worldwide?

Ibrahim makes this whole thing sound like a simple matter of some neighborhood watch group seeing his neighbor haul in a truckload of AK-47's and calling the cops on the guy......like the arab world knows who the bad guys are and where they live, and it's only a matter of dropping a couple of coins in a pay phone and all the terrorists will be knocked over the head and hauled to jail?

Ibrahim isn't factoring in that the bad apples move around and don't live necessarily like Ward Cleaver, living in the same house for forty years and everybody knows who everybody else is that's living in the neighborhood.

Is Abrahim suggesting we hand out M-16's to all the friendlies so when they get disgusted they can shoot thier neighbor in the apartment next door because they "just know" the guy living there is a terrorist and up to no good?

The Muslim mind may be on fire, but I seriously doubt they will be able to have much of an impact considering the reality of terrorism and how elusive the members are......the terrorists don't wear red uniforms and line up to fight like the redcoats of centuries past....

Call me negative or full of self-hatred or whatever you want......I see terrorists as being a whole separate entity that is unaffected by dreams of democracy in the middle east, thier agenda won't change because the rest of thier race is pissed off, they have buses to blow up regardless if there is a democracy in Iraq or in the whole world for that matter.....

My "negativity" as some people see it, mainly applies to matters of politics.....I tend to mix a bit of sarcasm and cynicism, and such related elements to my writings, the writings which are mainly of the political nature.....to assume that somehow I must go through every minute of every day mired in negativity is quite the stretch.....

...pretty much shines when people talk about how "honest" this politician is, compared to some other politician.....seems they did figure out thier own social security problem by just taxing the general fund for a 100% pay retirement, while the common people who pay thier wage are still looking at peanuts.......that and all this talk about bringing democracy to regions of the planet that have been practically on fire since gunpowder was invented.....oops, I'm getting negative on you guys again.....sorry guys, I was reflecting on true history....
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Marco said:
However sick the rest of the arabs are, what is thier recourse against the bad apples of thier race.......how are they going to deal with the terrorists or insurgents or whatever you want to call them that are ruining the rep for arabs worldwide?

Ibrahim makes this whole thing sound like a simple matter of some neighborhood watch group seeing his neighbor haul in a truckload of AK-47's and calling the cops on the guy......like the arab world knows who the bad guys are and where they live, and it's only a matter of dropping a couple of coins in a pay phone and all the terrorists will be knocked over the head and hauled to jail?

The Muslim mind may be on fire, but I seriously doubt they will be able to have much of an impact considering the reality of terrorism and how elusive the members are......the terrorists don't wear red uniforms and line up to fight like the redcoats of centuries past....

Call me negative or full of self-hatred or whatever you want......I see terrorists as being a whole separate entity that is unaffected by dreams of democracy in the middle east, thier agenda won't change because the rest of thier race is pissed off, they have buses to blow up regardless if there is a democracy in Iraq or in the whole world for that matter.....


Very good post.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
""However sick the rest of the arabs are, what is thier recourse against the bad apples of thier race.......how are they going to deal with the terrorists or insurgents or whatever you want to call them that are ruining the rep for arabs worldwide?

Ibrahim makes this whole thing sound like a simple matter of some neighborhood watch group seeing his neighbor haul in a truckload of AK-47's and calling the cops on the guy......like the arab world knows who the bad guys are and where they live, and it's only a matter of dropping a couple of coins in a pay phone and all the terrorists will be knocked over the head and hauled to jail?

The Muslim mind may be on fire, but I seriously doubt they will be able to have much of an impact considering the reality of terrorism and how elusive the members are......the terrorists don't wear red uniforms and line up to fight like the redcoats of centuries past....

Call me negative or full of self-hatred or whatever you want......I see terrorists as being a whole separate entity that is unaffected by dreams of democracy in the middle east, thier agenda won't change because the rest of thier race is pissed off, they have buses to blow up regardless if there is a democracy in Iraq or in the whole world for that matter"".....

marco... and kosar totally agrees......i`m not surprised...




there`s the old american spirit,guys..........lol...

wtf happened to the people in this country?...

it`s hard....it may get harder stateside before it gets better...much harder...

just quit on your stool,guys....but,don`t feel bad...there are many in this country just like you..

the long war... or the short surrender,gentlemen?.....

..this long war may well end on a day when the west and its beacon of liberty(yes,that`s us) surrender...if the marco`s and kosar`s have their way....... of course, the consequences of surrender will be much worse than the consequences of the war itself....believe it...

but,we are a free nation...and we are free to do as our collective will chooses -- even it that means choosing to lose....a result which many, like our two friends here ,appear happy to accomodate...

i wish they weren`t on our side...

"t is a common observation here that our cause is the cause of all mankind, and that we are fighting for their liberty in defending our own."
--Benjamin Franklin

the long war or the short surrender?.........

no need to answer.....we know where you stand...
 

Marco

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 29, 2003
793
0
0
"The long war or the short surrender?"

The long war is forever, at $177 million dollars a day, and thousands of American lives lost....being in Iraq isn't making us any safer here at home....ask the people of London about that "fighting them in Iraq so we don't have to fight them here" strategy......seems a few terrorists missed that memo that said they should drop all thier plans abroad and go up against an American tank in Falujah....

All it takes is a few insurgents/terrorists a day to keep us occupied in Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever in the middle east, and they have a pool of millions to draw another suicide bomber out of.....

We don't control any border around Iraq or any street there so the insurgents come and go at will, blend in with the common public, somehow we're trying to build an army and a police force to combat these guys, yet the training ground is a live battlefield where the barracks and police stations are contantly getting blown up....

We have to guard our own borders vigilantly, to eliminate terrorists from getting into our country and creating another 9/11.....which may happen anyway judging by the number of viable targets and our ability or inability to carefully screen people entering the US.....just look at the long expanse of border to our north and south and all the gaps they can just walk through.....

We don't owe the Iraqis a government or any other country a government.......Saddam and his sons plundered the country and decided to invade Kuwait, Saddam created conditions that exist in Iraq today by hoarding all the oil money and building mansions for himself and building the world's fourth largest army instead of spending the proceeds on the infrastructure of Iraq....Iraq is a sovereign country with problems of thier own, just like the United States is a sovereign country with problems of its own.....

We have a national debt of over 7 trillion dollars, yet there's $177 million dollars a day to spend in Iraq, and there's still 2 world trade center buildings in the landfill....Just once I'd like to hear a politician say "You know, all this talk about democracy in Iraq is great, but we were the ones attacked on 9/11, and we need to rebuild two skyscrapers and rebuild our infrastructure first, and take care of America. That's what you voted me in office to do."

Take care of business at home, what a novel concept. Is that why we're 7 trillion dollars in debt? Because we were taking care of business?

Call me negative or a quitter or whatever you want to call me.....while there are problems funding social security and health care costs are spiralling out of control, while local governments need a few thousand or million to complete a public project or school and talk about raising taxes to build these works, while this country is still 7 trillion dollars in debt.....I want to see America take care of business and take care of these problems instead of bringing electricity or schools to a foreign country while our schools crumble or the teachers are underpaid and move out of the industry.

Let the Iraqis solve thier own destiny and apply thier own oil money to thier own problems instead of taxing the American taxpayer with the bill, let Iraq and all these other countries run up thier own multi-trillion dollar debt like a teenager at the mall with a new credit card.

The fact is we can't spend $177 million a day in Iraq forever, and we'll have nothing to show for spending the hundreds of billions we have spent there when we leave......terrorism will be alive and well, we will still have to guard our own country against terrorist threat, and people will still be fighting in the middle east as they have done for centuries....there will be no democracy in the middle east, the religious minded zealots will be blowing themselves up for years to come.

The only thing left is to see how much money we blow before smarter people decide to pull the plug and let them fight. Then we can get back to the usual routine of putting off major problems in the USA, while we argue emotional issues about prayer in school or whether a flag on fire constitutes a felony.

Am I being too practical?
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
iraq...iraq...iraq.....you guys always try and turn any discussssion of terrorism and it`s ramifications to iraq......ignoring afghanistan...9/11...and every atrocity preceeding it...

the long war i`m speaking of is the war vs islamofascism...in it`s most recent metamorphosis...

but,if you must address iraq...and ignore the big picture,o.k..

islamofascism is just the latest "ism" in the middle east...

in the 1940s the raging -ism in the m.e.(middle east) was anti-semitic "secular" fascism, copycatting hitler and mussolini ....

between the 50`s and 70`s a soviet-style atheistic baathism and tribalism were the waves of the future and unstoppable.....

by the 1980s islamism was the newest ism...

each time an -ism was defeated, it was only to be followed by another — as it always is in the absence of free markets and constitutional government.......

on iraq...saddam started out as a pro-soviet communist puppet, then fancied himself a fascistic dictator and pan-arabist nationalist, and ended up building mosques, always in search of the most popular strain of hatred.......

arafat was once a left-wing atheistic thug..... wen the soviet union fizzled, he dropped the socialism, and became a south-american-style dictator...at the end of his days, he too got religion as the arab street turned to fundamentalism and hamas threatened to eat away his support.....

the common theme is not the koran, but the constant pathology of the middle east ....gender apartheid, polygamy, religious intolerance, tribalism, no freedom, a censored press, an educational system of brainwashing rather than free inquiry — that lends itself to the next cult to explain away failure and blame the west........

iraq has inadvertently become just one of the the battlegrounds of a long overdue reckoning, a bellwether of the future of the middle east......

it will be very difficult....but,if by chance,a government of the people can succeed, then,hopefully, the jihadists will be in retreat and there will be at last a third way between radical islam and dictatorship.

this is what i was saying in the prior panel and what the author alluding to...regarding the ostracization of islamists from western society....

we should no more tolerate the expression of islamic fascism on the shores of the west than churchill would have allowed hitler youth to teach aryan global racial superiority in london while it was under the blitz......

when the extremists are repatriated to the m.e., and understand they are never again welcome in europe and america,hopefully millions of others will get it..... know the reason why....and decide by their own attitudes to the killers in their midst whether they themselves wish ever again to visit, work, or be educated in the west.

if the terrorists are not isolated and ostracized at home, then any western government would have to be suicidal to admit any more young males from the islamic m.e.....

if the iranian public or the saudis, or egyptians do not begin creating a climate hostile to radical islam, then they de facto can only become the enemies of the west, in a war that they can only lose...hopefully...

as there alter-egos that preceded them have fallen...

unless of course the west has lost it`s will..to political correctness and the lack of resolve that liberals show regarding "how much money is spent" and on and on...

liberals complaining abiout governmental spending...that`s a switch...

now,the table is set....while you think the greatest threats we face arise from the patriot act or from "bush's lies," the truth is that evil men still seek the power to destroy as many of us as they can possibly hit.......

and quitting in iraq...or capitulating in afghanistan...isn`t going to change that fact...

it certainly wasn`t a factor in the 9/11 slaughter...
 
Last edited:

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
GW I believe much of what you say here. I'm not sure if our war in Iraq was deemed necessary or a must just had to happen.
Afghanistan yes we had to stop what was going on there. And we went looking for Bin. Could we have found a better way to look for Bin, maybe. Should we payed more attention to Saudi. Maybe so. Will any of our action taken last 3.5 years change out come of any thing. Time will tell.
 

Marco

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 29, 2003
793
0
0
Nice thought about all this democracy being set up in Iraq, but you guys have next to NO security set up, NO containment of the insurgents, the police precincts get blown up and political candidates die in thier own driveways via assassinations....

How is this democracy even going to get off the ground without basic security in place?

The leaders have to stay alive for more than a month, unless you're gonna have elections every other month or bring the second and third string in...

We talk about "the cost of this and the cost of that"......this is REALITY. These actions cost MONEY. They are not FREE. We can't piss the whole treasury away trying to instill democracy in the middle east.

Whatever dreams get started in the middle east, I'm saying for a fact there will still be terrorists to deal with on the planet. We have a democracy here and we still had Timothy McVeigh to deal with.

Lock our borders down and let these middle east hillbillies fight each other like they so want to, and forget about all this bullshit about peace in the middle east and everybody holding hands and sharing group hugs.

It isn't going to happen.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Marco can't say your all wrong. We were better off when Iran and Iraq were trying to knock each other off. However we did look the other way as they gassed each other and did just about everything but drop a nuke. Now we say hey we have to stop these things.
Not sure how you do it when it's gone on so dam long, 2000 years.
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,913
138
63
17
L.A.
gardenweasel said:
In fact, fewer than ever US or British soldiers are dying since the invasion more than two years ago.
BULLSHIT! we still lose at least two a week. this is garbage funny math - as always an attempt to prove some political point.

it aint true, the ACTUAL numbers don't lie. stick to true mathematics, don't try and sell us garbage.

****! when will the right stop LYING TO US??????????
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,581
229
63
"the bunker"
it is a somewhat fluctuating number,smurph....


in january...more than the average

february..march...april...leass than average...

may and june.....more than the average..

july less than average...

i should have said that the fact is that the main targets of the monsters has changed recently.... iraqi civilians now appear to be the main targets...
 

Palehose

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 22, 2005
590
1
0
There was even a better artical in the wall street Journal last week sort of simular to this written by a Muslim which gave hope but was begging the question of were is the 1,000,000 man march on Washington by Muslims against terrorist acts ? Cant seem to find a link though ;(
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top