Fletcher, and......

[Billy]

anyone else with baseball coaching experience.....I know this is
general discussion material but since the season hasn't started
yet maybe I can sneak this in....I have a 10 year old son who has
shown some great potential as a pitcher and shortstop....he
throws right handed but bats left handed....I'll start this out by
asking two questions, but I have many more....
I donot push my son to do anything except have fun at what he
is doing....when he makes a mistake in a game, I encourage him
on, when he makes a play, I give him our secret message, thumbs
up, I also used to coach 3rd base on his team, until I had to take
a job in Cal.....my wife and son will join me again in June in Cal...
.....1st ?....several knowledgeable people have stressed to me
that under no circumstances should he try to pitch curve balls
until after 14 years of age, reason being it will contort the elbow
to the extent of taking away the fastball in the later, more important years.....
......2nd?....I have tryed to coax him to bat both sides to at least
see if he is a true righty, but after a couple of swings, he says
no way....he is not a power hitter because he hasn't learned to
follow thru yet, but he makes contact damn near every pitch in
or out of the zone....is this OK....
.....granted, i"m talking about a ten year old, and yes he's my son,
but I can't wait till he gets out here and I can't wait till baseball
season starts.....

 

[fletcher]

#1 first stay away from cb will have bone chips by 13 learn change up best pitch there is.

circle change when hands are bigger but for now tuck ball deep in palm and squeeze tight with thumb and little figer and throw the same as fb but grip tighter ,this will allow the ball to rotate slower out of the hand but keep arm speed the same.

cut fb hold ball with both fingers together on outside seam and out pressure on one or the other finger tips for movement,also he can rotate wrist where tumb is facing sky and keep both fingers together on outside seam and throw it like he is chopping wood and palm will go towards left knee on follow through,this is a mini slider easy on are.

and on fb grip hold ball like an egg the losser the grip the better the arm speed.

#2 hitting best way to do this is off a tee and hit into a sheet or net tied to 2 polls or theowen over cloths line. this is the best practice there is we hit more on tees then live because you get to practice rotating your hips and good hip pop brings the bat through and gives you power. he should have belly button pointing towards pitcher or net on contact ,also keep him from strinding with fron foot to start bat front foot should come up and down soft in the same spot almost,you can put a piece of wood down to keep him from striding out,this way his hands will saty back and he can adjust to ball and explode off back foot and rotate hips to bring bat through the contat zone this is where you get you power strong hip pop,hips bring the hands throught the zone not front leg step then hands if you do that you are losing 30% of your pop,and it slows your bat down,power is speed,not hard swinging but quick hip burst and compact swing is what makes ball jump.

he can hit as long as he wants with a tee and its the best thing in the world then live hitting he will feel that he can't miss.

most of all let him enjoy it at that age and sounds like you do because if you push him by 16 he wont want to play,but nothing wrong with hitting everyday off tee can even do it in the grage on cold days just rig a sheet or net and a few balls and its like being on the field but you are practicing good habits and working on hip pop.

hard work does pay off tell him but enjoy it and have fun with it.

hope this helps
good luck
Eric

 

[Super Idiota]

Hey Billy,

I agree with everyone that says that curve balls will destroy a young arm. In fact, a young kid should not throw sinkers, splitters, curves or sliders for that matter. Stick with fast balls and change ups.

Secondly, he definitely should attempt switch hit. It's an asset to any baseball player. He doesn't need to hit for power, but just the ability to turn the bat around is a huge advantage.

I am a lefty that hits from both sides of the plate. I started hitting from the right side, but my coach and dad forced me to hit lefty as well. It made a difference, especially when I had to squeeze a bunt down the first base line.

Your son has plenty of time to coordinate his swing and work on his power from both sides.

Good Luck!

 

[Valuist]

I was a RH thrower and LH hitter and I remember my Dad trying to make me a RH hitter. I say stick with whats good. Kids nowdays don't practice that much so they should get in as much practice time with what they're good at. There's far more advantages to being a LH hitter than a RH hitter anyways. I played thru high school and didn't have to worry about too many LH pitchers. I say keep him hitting LH and if he's real good several years down the line, then maybe experiment. But concentrate on getting good from one side of the plate first.

 

[Nick Douglas]

Super Idiota knows what he is talking about. He can't hit my changeup from either side of the plate. And that home run was still garbage. Pulled a change barely fair over a fence about 260 feet away. What a load of crap.

In all seriousness I have to agree. Best pitcher in my high school basically lost his chance for a baseball career because of arm troubles. He was throwing curves early and he was the man all the way through little league. Made Varsity as a frosh and was a stud all the way through HS. Then he gets to college and his arm breaks down. Now he is 24 and trying to start it back up again but it is probably too late. If you want to give your son a chance long term let the other kids have the glory of striking out 12 year olds with the hook. Have him learn the change and a good heater and he will thank you for it when he is 17 or 18 and a stud on the mound.

 

[Billy]

Thanks guys....

Thanks guys....

Excellant info that I really didn't expect but greatly appreciate....
I thought the curveball theory would probably get a good laugh,
turns out you all nailed it...obviously I don't know a lot about the
fundamentals of baseball, but 4 years ago my son started t-ball
and I jumped in and helped coach and I can honnestly say that it
has given me more satisfaction than any thing else i've ever
done....and your right Fletcher, I see kids out there who won't
make it to 16 because the game means more to the parents than
any of the ball players.....but I don't play that game....I'll take the
guys, and theres always 4 or 5, who don't want to play in the
first place, parents forced them to, couldn't hit a beachball coming
across the plate, afraid to swing the bat, afraid to hit the ball,
lay down in the outfield and look for 4 leaf clovers....an automatic
out at the first of the season....while Andy is doing the REAL
coaching, I'll take these guys way out in the outfield and pitch
them wiffle golf balls until they are crosseyed...but by the end of
the season these guys will somehow start hitting the ball and
start getting getting on base, and you should see the smile on
their face, their chests puff out, ALL the parents screeming and
yelling....Ahhh, I can't wait.........

 

[Frank White]

SMALL TIP

SMALL TIP

MAKE SURE YOUR SON KEEPS HIS GLOVE HAND AND ELBOW TUCKED IN TO HIS BODY WHEN HE'S PITCHING. IT SHOULD ADD A FEW MPH'S TO ALL OF HIS PITCHES. MOST KIDS HAVE A TENDENCY TO LET THAT HAND AND ARM STICK OUT BECAUSE THEY FEEL THEY NEED IT FOR BALANCE. KEEPING THAT ARM IN WILL HELP HIS DELIVERY AND FOLLOW THROUGH.

AT AGE 10, CONTROL SHOULD BE YOUR FOCUS (BESIDES FUN!!). DON'T WORRY ABOUT VELOCITY OR MOVEMENT, JUST HAVE HIM THROW STRIKES. IF HE LEARNS TO THROW STRIKES AND GET AHEAD IN THE PITCH COUNT (SEE GREGG MADDUX), HE WILL BE AHEAD OF 99% OF THE KIDS HIS AGE.

P.S. REMEMBER WHEN YOUR DAD WOULD GIVE YOU THE SECRET SIGN? MAYBE IT CAME AFTER FLASHING THE LEATHER ON THE HOT CORNER OR SLIDING HEAD FIRST AFTER AN RBI DOUBLE. DAMN, THAT WAS THE BEST FEELING (CURRENT AND PAST GIRLFREINDS EXCLUDED). THOSE THUMBS UP WILL GO FARTHER THAN ANYTHING YOU TEACH HIM.

 

[Super Idiota]

For the record....

I crushed Nick Douglas' change-up. It was a no doubter. I am a lefty that converted into a switch hitter and I hit the long ball from the right side.

Nick - You let me know when you want some more. I am ready for your heat and your change-up.

S.I.

 

[hoyt]

Elbow up, nose to the plate, watch the ball boy, what the hell are you doing, get the bat off your shoulder, come on I said watch the ball, NO your not looking at the ball, WATCH THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry just having flash backs.
GL

 

[Stewy]

I played one year in college as a pitcher.

I played one year in college as a pitcher.

I tore my rotator cuff severely in the middle of the spring season. I was throwing junk at age 8, I guarantee you this is the cause of my injury. Tell your boy to work different fastball grips and changeup grips and work on hitting spots. No need for a good young talent to tear up there arm.

If he ever want's to throw a splitter tell him to wait till close to 20 years old. I would go innings at a time throwin nothing but splitters and getting easy ground ball outs and I am sure the splitter tore my shoulder up bad.

 

[Patternseeker]

just gotta say this is about the most knowledge i've EVER seen on baseball. i wish i would have known you guys when my son was younger.

props to you all for sharing your knowledge.

 

[wigs]

stewey-
same thing happened to my roommate in college. at the end of his senior yr in high school, his arm was shot due to cut fastballs and splitters(and more importantly horrible horrible mechanics). he threw 89 as a high school senior and about 82 as a college freshman-- luckily he went to med school..

also grew up playing against ben grieve in martin and can tell you there is another arm that got shot due to too many deuces at age 12. i remember he was a yr younger than me and when he was in 5th grade, i watched him in a little league playoff game strike out 16 of 18 batters and win 1-0(yeah he had an rbi double also). anyway he was working with tom house(old ranger pitching coach) and even threw some sidelines in front of nolan(not dalla but ryan) back then. goes to show you that even so-called smart baseball people make dumb mistakes and risk their kids' longevity. anyway his arm was toast by 9th grade--

I cant think of many things i have done for more years than pitch(from 5 to 21) so like to think i know a few things about it--

a changeup grip that some youngsters find easier and one i myself used was a three-fingered change. i liked it b/c it was easier for me to keep the same arm speed, which is key in deceiving the batter and getting them out on their front foot, so they have nothing but arms to swing with, getcha some grounders or lazy pops-- . i got by with that change in college(only div 3 mind ya) and w/o it, well i dont even want to consider that one- (i preferred gripping that change with the seams rather than across, got more movement but that depends on the pitcher and arm angle, etc)



good luck, of course like everyone said, most important thing is having fun, especially at that age--

 

[wondo]

no offense, but the cut fastball probably wasn't what did your buddy's arm in. THat pitch is really easy to throw and even the other breaking stuff isn't that it ruins your arm, it just doesn't allow the younger guys to develop arm strength. the splitter is rough and a lot of teams dont even grade it out in the high school aged prospect and dont allow their guys to throw it until AA or a certain age.

Don't know if this was mentionned, but long toss is absolutely critical to keeping an arm healthy. Try to do it everyday, atleast 3-5 throws after getting loosened up, even if you are stiff.

Here's another pitch that's easy on the arm and devastating if you're hands can do it... like a sinker but you don't have to turn it out. But not everyone can throw it.

Take your hands and look that them with the palm away from you (looking at the back of your hands). Put your two index fingers side by side. Take note of if they run more or less straight up and down or if they bend away from each other, forming a "V" Some people have great variation in this. If you have a really distinguished "V," you can try taking that ball along the 2 small seams, as if you're throwing a two seam FB. THen rotate the ball about 30 degrees, so now you have the index finger not on a seam, and the middle finger on a seam. Vary the pressure on either finger and you can get the ball to dance in various directions. But the key is to have anatomically odd hands, that have a crooked index finger. The Yankees use this pitch with a lot of their minor leaguers that have the correct anatomy.

Another thing to see, and this is more of a stereotype, but the flexion in your wrist has a strong correlation with your maximum velocity. So if you can bend your wrist back really far, you'd be able to throw cheese if you develop the rest of your arm strength.

billy, if you want, I'm in the process of writing a book on pitching. most of it is geared towards the college/pro player, but some of the stuff is the same for anyone. if jack gives you my email address drop me an email and i can send you some relavent pages.

also, the importance of a located fastball cant be stressed enough. smoltz once opened up a game by throwing 38 fastballs in a row without an offspeed pitch. talk about an advantage-- being in the 4th or 5th inning without having seen anyother pitch! hell, some kids now throw all their stuff to the first hitter of the game!

 

[wondo]

ha -- just read your comment about tom house. i think he's a quack. did anyone evr stop to think that there's a reason he doesn't have a job? too complicated for my taste.....throw strikes, get outs, it's a simple game.

the biggest thing about hitting is that you either got the hitting sperm, or you dont got the hitting sperm. all the tees and softoss and bp doesn't make a damn difference if you aint got it.

 

[Billy]

I've been checking out the 9-10 and 11-12 year olds here, (they
are already playing games while the NW Arkansas boys are
throwing snowballs)....and have already observed two things
that stick out....
.....these 9-10 pitchers are spending massive time trying to pick
off runners at ALL bases and we never even worried about it
back home, these games last twice as long as they should and
you can tell the kids get bored and lose all interest because it's
a futile effort and wastes time.....
.....the 11-12 year old players out here are LIGHT YEARS ahead
of the 9-10 and it almost scares me, and those pitchers are
throwing every thing in the book.....
.....my son David, can throw a fairly quick ball, not the fastest by
any means, but he is accurate as anyone....you either hit off him
or he strikes you out, if you hit off him anywhere in his general
vacinity, he'll throw you out at first, I'd put him up against these
youngsters out here any day, but i'm an outsider coming in and
how would you go about telling a coach that fastballs or change-
ups are ONLY on the menu.....?
....and wondo, I will pursue your e-mail, and would much appre-
ciate the info, hang with me though, I spend limited time on here
and don't have much time tonight, will get back tho....thanks to
ALL.....

 

[fletcher]

wondo house knows his shit,but you are right you have to have a phd,to put it to use,but long toss with the football is great for arm strength,i like bob shaw myself and you man work fast throw strikes and get outs.

disagree with you on the hitting though,when i coached at hagerstown and playing in wichita,most of our work was tee work.
hitting is not god given the fast twitch and slow twitch muscles are,and you can increase this by different drills and learn to be a good hitter,the eye site is a factor but it can also be trained to react with computer hand eye drills and i know your team uses this down in orlando.

if it was god given then you wouldnot have guys that travel team to team toneing these skills in the minors.

good luck on book let me know when it is done,will enjoy it very much.

hey do you guys still have tim spooneybarger from okalossa-walton cc, i really like this kid nice fb and loved his cb,i thought you guys picked him up in 98 was wondering if he was still around and if so how has he made the move ,had a low 90's fb but was really impressed with his cb when he played for owcc.

are you going to orlando for the first month or is it off on the road for you.

did your region change? are you still in south east or mid atlantic if south east i have a few juco studs with good bloodlines in the juco reg XX.

maybe you will be the guy to sign bobby brownlie from rutgers

ole miss has a usc transfer that picked it up last year pete montrenes,lot better then how he was at usc and a juco transfer j.r pickens that is worth a look.

well enjoy the road and be safe and hope you find your gold mine he is out there,just need to keep parents out of the picture when you find him,they will be looking for the big attoreny and insurence from lloyds

good luck and enjoy

 

[Stewy]

Good Pitching coach

Good Pitching coach

Dick Mills, check out his chit

 

[fletcher]

the dad of ryan mills he did wonders with his son,and increasing speed over the years,have read a few things from him not bad,but some things just cant be if you fb is short its hard to add 7-8 mph on it 3-4 yes 7-8 is stretching it but he did it with his son but son also had the whip like body to start.

still like lot of his stuff though.

 

[wondo]

fletch,

i just read your post

i don't teach hitting at a high level (never past high school really) so as far as making a good hitter into a great hitter, maybe it's that I don't really understand it. i see the good ones and i see their rhythm and balance and the way the ball jumps off the bat, but as far as teaching how to do that, it's a whole nother story. i guess i can figure whats wrong but not how to do it right.

but house gets too much for me. it's not even that what he says is wrong, but just not my style as a coach. too many young pitchers take what should be left in the pen out onto the mound. do the mechanics in the pen and forget about it in the game. and plus, look at all the exceptions to the rule. like wayne gomes -- remember when they tried to screw with him to make him throw 'correctly' and he lost 10 mph? then they say 'f- it' and he goes back to throwing 100 mph. throw strikes, get outs. too many 'coaches' today are forced into making cookie cutter players without regard to players bodies and individual characteristics.

the other day on espn.com they had a picture of David Wells and the next day one of Eric Milton. Both guys look brutal in their mechanics, but get it done. I guess I'm just so used to going to some half-a**ed showcases over the winter around here where all you see are cookie cutter rich white kids paying big bucks for some guy to tell them some gimmick to make them the next willie mays.

i forgot who told me this, but i always remember it and really think it simplifies things into a way that makes sense:

tools + performance = player

but then again, everyone has different goals and can still benefit from playing sports at whatever level, so trying to maximize your potential even if it means playing jv high school ball -- there's nothing wrong with that and probably serves you well as an adult later in life. but too much money flying around in this private instruction business to make it hard to determine the business from the baseball.

 

[wondo]

yea, and as far as the drills. you're right. if you do them and understand them, they can replicate the feel that you are striving for. that way in the game, you dont necessarily think about each component, but you strive for the right 'feel' that you've gained from each drill..... my opinion on them, atleast. but that's also at a different level, too, where some guys have already proven some tools and perhaps even some performance, fwiw.