FREEEEEEEE

theGibber1

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He must not have chosen the best policy. I got my insurance through the marketplace and it covers that, and I pay peanuts compared to before the ACA

Not saying you are lying but gonna side with Mags on this one. It may be cheaper for you but you are one of the few..

We see prolly 60-100 patients per month and I have never EVER heard one person say their insurance is now cheaper. In fact people are forced to get shittier plans to keep their costs down. We are almost 6 months into the year and most patients still have large deductibles. This was not the case a few years ago. After Jan and Feb most deductibles were met and were hardly an issue for the rest of the year.

Most of the Obamacare plans are garbage. So much bureaucratic red tape to go through and patients still get items they need declined. An amputee patient who's plan wouldn't cover a knee brace for his other leg comes to mind. Saw a lady a few weeks ago who only has about 40 degrees of extension in her knee was declined the extension device that would fix her problem. The list goes on and on. We hear people bitch daily.

As far as the poorer folks who now have it.. Well before all this mess they had Medicaid.. What a debacle
 

fatdaddycool

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LOL... I know that is what you want to believe, even if it isn't true. But that's ok, even Obama wants to believe that every families premium would go down $2,500 with the ACA.

You might be the only person in the US for which that occurred. Good for you!
I'm simply making an observation. You stated that it is disingenuous to say the ACA is responsible for lowering premiums. For something to be considered true, the reciprocal must also be true.
You don't get to pick and choose here.
 

fatdaddycool

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Not saying you are lying but gonna side with Mags on this one. It may be cheaper for you but you are one of the few..

We see prolly 60-100 patients per month and I have never EVER heard one person say their insurance is now cheaper. In fact people are forced to get shittier plans to keep their costs down. We are almost 6 months into the year and most patients still have large deductibles. This was not the case a few years ago. After Jan and Feb most deductibles were met and were hardly an issue for the rest of the year.

Most of the Obamacare plans are garbage. So much bureaucratic red tape to go through and patients still get items they need declined. An amputee patient who's plan wouldn't cover a knee brace for his other leg comes to mind. Saw a lady a few weeks ago who only has about 40 degrees of extension in her knee was declined the extension device that would fix her problem. The list goes on and on. We hear people bitch daily.

As far as the poorer folks who now have it.. Well before all this mess they had Medicaid.. What a debacle

Well now you can't say that anymore. You have heard of someone saying their insurance is cheaper.

You know what's funny. I'm sitting at Dublin square in fort worth watching the Blackhawks game and sitting right next to me is a conservative. His reaction is the same as mine. What does president Obama have to do with insurance claim denials or premium rates?
Our sitting president would rather have a single pay system or universally free health care. The ACA is a compromise with what Republicans were willing to vote in.
So I appreciate you not calling me a liar and only insinuating it. That's huge. ..... Thanks
 

Jaxx

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Well now you can't say that anymore. You have heard of someone saying their insurance is cheaper.

You know what's funny. I'm sitting at Dublin square in fort worth watching the Blackhawks game and sitting right next to me is a conservative. His reaction is the same as mine. What does president Obama have to do with insurance claim denials or premium rates?
Our sitting president would rather have a single pay system or universally free health care. The ACA is a compromise with what Republicans were willing to vote in.
So I appreciate you not calling me a liar and only insinuating it. That's huge. ..... Thanks

Are you kidding me?

:mj07:

Affordable Care Act?s provisions (Obama Care)have everything to do with it. Cmon man. You cant have it both ways. Unreal.

:facepalm:
 

fatdaddycool

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Are you kidding me?

:mj07:

Affordable Care Act?s provisions (Obama Care)have everything to do with it. Cmon man. You cant have it both ways. Unreal.

:facepalm:

Nope, not kidding at all.

Feel free to show me which provisions state that the president is to set premium rates. Feel free to show me which provisions state that the president decides which claims get denied.

You don't get it both ways Jaxx. You don't get to speak in half truths and blame the president for legislation that you decide is not good. Consequently, you don't get to say it isn't to the president's credit for legislation that has been successful.

Then again, you told me you weren't a Republican before as well so maybe you're just always confused as to what you believe.
 

Mags

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Nope, not kidding at all.

Feel free to show me which provisions state that the president is to set premium rates. Feel free to show me which provisions state that the president decides which claims get denied.

You don't get it both ways Jaxx. You don't get to speak in half truths and blame the president for legislation that you decide is not good. Consequently, you don't get to say it isn't to the president's credit for legislation that has been successful.

Then again, you told me you weren't a Republican before as well so maybe you're just always confused as to what you believe.

Come on FDC. Do you really believe that the ACA's provision not allowing companies to underwrite individuals (the whole pre-ex thing) isn't affecting the premiums? That is by far the most important factor. Every economist and actuary understands that this one provision has a substantial effect (upward) on premiums in the individual market. And it has been proven by the rate levels - which are much higher now than in 2013 (not the normal higher, but MUCH higher). Even the Society of Actuaries had a paper in 2012 that demonstrated the likely state by state impact.

Based on the postings I've seen from you, it appears that you are a very sharp guy. But your refusal to acknowledge even this basic fact just shows blind loyalty to your party and president. Talk to any insurance agent or actuary and ask them if guaranteed issue raised premiums significantly in the Individual market. 99% or more of them will tell you "certainly".

FYI - health insurance is the only insurance that you are not allowed to set premium rates based on the risk of the individual. Yep, that means the 400 pound fatty of the same age pays the same as the guy who has a 24 BMI and goes to the gym each day. No, it doesn't make sense, but that is what Dems did.

We should do the same for auto and home insurance. It is unfair to discriminate against drivers who have tickets and DUI's - they should pay the same as Aunt Judy, who only drives 5 miles a week. Same for homes - why do homes in flood zones pay more than one in the middle of Nebraska? Seems like discrimination to me.........

Anyway... have a great holiday weekend everyone!
 
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fatdaddycool

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Mags,
The point I'm trying to get across is simple. Individuals as well as media and political interest groups continuously try to portray the ACA as a partisan executive order designed and executed by the President, in order to hurt the everyday citizen. Less than factual statements and assertions are consistently used as a weapon to diminish him and anyone who actually supports or benefits from it. Much like you did, whether knowingly or not is unimportant, in a previous post.
The ACA isn't a new idea and it certainly wasn't Obama's idea in its original form nor when it was first implemented. Speak to the Reagan administration about that. Every single president since Kennedy has tried to implement some sort of health care reform bill and this is the one that passed with bi-partisan support. Outright refusal to acknowledge the facts surrounding the policy and it's intent while making assertions of it being a causal factor in the failure of this nation to care for the sick and needy of this nation is reprehensible and factually incorrect.
You and I are on completely different sides of this argument. Your entire argument is based, in my opinion only, on the notion that insurance companies are necessary for equitable health services, and that it should be understood that they have to turn a profit as well. There is arguably no benchmark type system anywhere in the world that supports an insurance based health care system such as we have. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence worldwide to support nationalized free health care. I will say that I believe you to be a very sharp guy yourself. It frustrates me when I see intelligent men and women deny their own mental acuity in favor of pandering to the politically motivated dumbing down of society. Let me be clear, I'm not accusing you personally of anything other than this. I believe you personally know better that if we had universally free health care in this nation that it could ultimately be implemented and executed at a far cheaper cost to the average tax payer than they are currently paying in health care costs. While you can certainly speculate on that and anyone can make outrageous claims of how horrible it would be, the fact is that right now, as it sits this instant, our country has one of the worst systems in the world. Unless of course you are wealthy.
I stated that the President, which is what was inferred by someone else, does not determine premium rates. The President didn't author this plan, he didn't put it into law by himself and he doesn't enforce it by himself. There are compelling arguments that can be made to support that the ACA legislation has an effect on insurance costs and coverages. I'll accept that. However, there are no compelling arguments made that change the fact that if it drives some premiums to be raised it also drives some to be lowered. Too many are insistent that it only harm's the majority of our citizens and that is simply not true.
You believe that insurance companies need to turn a profit, I do not. I think that taking care of our citizens should be a privilege and a core principle is every single American. Therefore I don't believe in even slightly bloating suppositions and assumptions about what is "going to happen" due to the policy. It's all supposition. When you have to believe general assumptions to connect the dots on a linear timeline, it's not fact. Period.
I know that this response is probably not going to sit well with you as well as others and I'm sorry. I'm simply trying to give you some semblance of my position and thought processes on the subject. I'm a very logical and deductive person and I try not to let presumptive assertions affect my judgement when it comes to what is best for every citizen.

I truly. ..

Hope this helps,
FDC
 

smurphy

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Jesus would be very disappointed that our health care system is "for profit". I am 100% sure that He would support a socialist health care system void of insurance companies. The concept of wealthy people having better medical treatment than others and some folks not being able to have any care at all is an affront to God. We are our brothers' keepers.
 

Mags

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Every single president since Kennedy has tried to implement some sort of health care reform bill and this is the one that passed with bi-partisan support.

That is so not true. There was not 1 republican vote, in the House or Senate, for the ACA. In fact, the ACA is the ONLY entitlement program that exists in America that was passed without bi-partisan support. Not Social Security, Not Medicare, Not Medicare Part D. That is why it is hated by 1/2 of our country.

I personally believe that no legislation should be passed in this country without at least 10% minority support. Otherwise you get what we got with the ACA - 1/2 the country happy, and 1/2 pissed off. The minority should always have some say - with the majority calling most of the shots of course. But nothing ever should be rammed through like the ACA was, with no minority support at all.

I believe you personally know better that if we had universally free health care in this nation that it could ultimately be implemented and executed at a far cheaper cost to the average tax payer than they are currently paying in health care costs.

Nobody/country has "free" health care. Somebody pays for it - and it is usually a small segment of the population via taxes - when it should be an equal tax on everyone if all are going to use it. The primary reason other countries health care costs are so much lower has very little to do with insurance companies - Doctors/Hospitals/Pharma get much less in other countries. In fact, the USA subsidizes pharma costs for the world - we pay more so other countries can pay less. The R's asked to add an amendment to the ACA to allow re-importation of drugs, so our citizens could buy them more cheaply. Obama personally ensured this did not pass, by reaching out to Dem senators - because Obama made a backroom deal with Pharma (Billy Tauzin) to get them to support the ACA and promised them he wouldn't allow the re-importation amendment to go through - ensuring high profits for Pharma. Of course, then Pharma also committed millions of dollars in advertising to support the bill.

And no, a government run system would not be cheaper. Any large government program has significant bloat and fraud involved with it. The government basically does not care about these issues and is unwilling to investigate. Rest assured, private insurers are on top of these issues. You might say, well, health claims are cheaper under Medicare. Sure they are - because the government mandates that their pay rate is 60% (or less) than private insurance pays docs and providers. So, let's say the gov't said all doctors and hospitals, etc must take 60% going forward to reduce costs in the private market. How do you think that would work with docs and hospitals? Also, another reminder of how Pharma has the gov't in it's pocket - while Docs and Hospitals get paid a fraction of their "normal" charge by Medicare - guess who doesn't have to reduce their prices at all for the gov't? Yep, Pharma again.

I stated that the President, which is what was inferred by someone else, does not determine premium rates.

True, not directly. But the plan he pushed through created rule changes that by themselves caused premium rates to go up. Without the regulation and taxes, premium rates would have still gone up - but not by the large jump that occurred in the Individual market in 2014 (45% average, 80% max in some states). He, and the Dems, have to take responsibility for that. Ignoring the Medicaid expansion (which could have been done without all the other crap in the ACA bill), only approximately 5M people gained coverage (11M in the exchanges minus the 5-6M that had coverage cancelled and had to re-buy exchange coverage so they are not "new" insureds). That is only about 1.5% of the population. That is the definition of a special interest - and catering to the small minority instead of the majority. The majority of the expansion of coverage was due to the Medicaid expansion - which should have been the only change made, and COULD have had some bi-partisan support without blowing up the whole market.

Most of the people that had Individual coverage prior to 2014 were paying the premiums themselves. They had a high enough average income that they wouldn't be getting subsidies in 2014 (they had to, as insurance is expensive as we all know). Many of these folks are members of the middle class. Now, they saw an average of 45% increase for the same plan (based on actuarial value - the whole rhetoric about "crap plans" prior to 2014 is just crap - yes, there were some, but the vast majority of them are similar to what is on the Exchange today - but the ones prior to 2014 had lower deductibles on average, and lower out of pocket limits).

Your argument that the ACA didn't raise prices is silly. Here is a parallel example that should help: imagine if a law was passed that said "auto insurers cannot charge different premiums for any motorist. Doesn't matter if they are a good driver or bad driver, whether they have 0 DUI's or 10 DUI's, or how many tickets they have". As you probably know, many bad drivers cannot get auto insurance after 1 or more DUI's. Now, mandate that they can - and can pay no more than the best driver. Of course, the average rate would go up a lot. That is exactly what happened in health care. Now, you will argue that healthcare is different - which I agree - but charging everyone the same, and accepting everyone, certainly puts price pressure on the upside. And a lot more pressure - an auto accident, you might total a $70K car - but health insurance, you can easily have $1M in claims for a transplant, etc. Heck, even the recent Hep C drug that just came out costs $84K for the series of treatment. Why? Pharma of course - they can charge whatever they want......

Oh yea, one more thing. Premiums are not "lowered" if someone is getting a subsidy (having other taxpayers pay their premium). Sure, to the individual person, the amount they pay each month is a lot less. The premium is still the premium, and a tax subsidy is applied to the premium to lower their individual cost. In many cases, substantially. But the full premium still needs to be paid to cover the cost of claims. The only difference is, taxpayers are paying way more of that premium than they should be.

I probably provided much more education than you really wanted. Oh well, sometimes it is fun to be on the soapbox.

Have a great holiday weekend FDC.
 

Mags

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Jesus would be very disappointed that our health care system is "for profit". I am 100% sure that He would support a socialist health care system void of insurance companies. The concept of wealthy people having better medical treatment than others and some folks not being able to have any care at all is an affront to God. We are our brothers' keepers.

Every person in the US, whether insured or not, has access to care.

Why have profit in anything? Why just single out healthcare? Why should real estate people make profit - people need shelter, don't they? Why should grocers make profit? People need food to live. Why should people that own rental property make profit? Poor people rent, they shouldn't be taken advantage of.

Where do you draw the line? How do you take the profit out of doctor salaries/hospitals/pharma?

That is where the vast majority of "profit" is in the healthcare system - by far. Do you suggest that we pay our doctors like they do in European countries - basically max them out at $100K a year. Is that a doctor you want to go to?
 

fatdaddycool

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That is so not true. There was not 1 republican vote, in the House or Senate, for the ACA. In fact, the ACA is the ONLY entitlement program that exists in America that was passed without bi-partisan support. Not Social Security, Not Medicare, Not Medicare Part D. That is why it is hated by 1/2 of our country.

I personally believe that no legislation should be passed in this country without at least 10% minority support. Otherwise you get what we got with the ACA - 1/2 the country happy, and 1/2 pissed off. The minority should always have some say - with the majority calling most of the shots of course. But nothing ever should be rammed through like the ACA was, with no minority support at all.



Nobody/country has "free" health care. Somebody pays for it - and it is usually a small segment of the population via taxes - when it should be an equal tax on everyone if all are going to use it. The primary reason other countries health care costs are so much lower has very little to do with insurance companies - Doctors/Hospitals/Pharma get much less in other countries. In fact, the USA subsidizes pharma costs for the world - we pay more so other countries can pay less. The R's asked to add an amendment to the ACA to allow re-importation of drugs, so our citizens could buy them more cheaply. Obama personally ensured this did not pass, by reaching out to Dem senators - because Obama made a backroom deal with Pharma (Billy Tauzin) to get them to support the ACA and promised them he wouldn't allow the re-importation amendment to go through - ensuring high profits for Pharma. Of course, then Pharma also committed millions of dollars in advertising to support the bill.

And no, a government run system would not be cheaper. Any large government program has significant bloat and fraud involved with it. The government basically does not care about these issues and is unwilling to investigate. Rest assured, private insurers are on top of these issues. You might say, well, health claims are cheaper under Medicare. Sure they are - because the government mandates that their pay rate is 60% (or less) than private insurance pays docs and providers. So, let's say the gov't said all doctors and hospitals, etc must take 60% going forward to reduce costs in the private market. How do you think that would work with docs and hospitals? Also, another reminder of how Pharma has the gov't in it's pocket - while Docs and Hospitals get paid a fraction of their "normal" charge by Medicare - guess who doesn't have to reduce their prices at all for the gov't? Yep, Pharma again.



True, not directly. But the plan he pushed through created rule changes that by themselves caused premium rates to go up. Without the regulation and taxes, premium rates would have still gone up - but not by the large jump that occurred in the Individual market in 2014 (45% average, 80% max in some states). He, and the Dems, have to take responsibility for that. Ignoring the Medicaid expansion (which could have been done without all the other crap in the ACA bill), only approximately 5M people gained coverage (11M in the exchanges minus the 5-6M that had coverage cancelled and had to re-buy exchange coverage so they are not "new" insureds). That is only about 1.5% of the population. That is the definition of a special interest - and catering to the small minority instead of the majority. The majority of the expansion of coverage was due to the Medicaid expansion - which should have been the only change made, and COULD have had some bi-partisan support without blowing up the whole market.

Most of the people that had Individual coverage prior to 2014 were paying the premiums themselves. They had a high enough average income that they wouldn't be getting subsidies in 2014 (they had to, as insurance is expensive as we all know). Many of these folks are members of the middle class. Now, they saw an average of 45% increase for the same plan (based on actuarial value - the whole rhetoric about "crap plans" prior to 2014 is just crap - yes, there were some, but the vast majority of them are similar to what is on the Exchange today - but the ones prior to 2014 had lower deductibles on average, and lower out of pocket limits).

Your argument that the ACA didn't raise prices is silly. Here is a parallel example that should help: imagine if a law was passed that said "auto insurers cannot charge different premiums for any motorist. Doesn't matter if they are a good driver or bad driver, whether they have 0 DUI's or 10 DUI's, or how many tickets they have". As you probably know, many bad drivers cannot get auto insurance after 1 or more DUI's. Now, mandate that they can - and can pay no more than the best driver. Of course, the average rate would go up a lot. That is exactly what happened in health care. Now, you will argue that healthcare is different - which I agree - but charging everyone the same, and accepting everyone, certainly puts price pressure on the upside. And a lot more pressure - an auto accident, you might total a $70K car - but health insurance, you can easily have $1M in claims for a transplant, etc. Heck, even the recent Hep C drug that just came out costs $84K for the series of treatment. Why? Pharma of course - they can charge whatever they want......

Oh yea, one more thing. Premiums are not "lowered" if someone is getting a subsidy (having other taxpayers pay their premium). Sure, to the individual person, the amount they pay each month is a lot less. The premium is still the premium, and a tax subsidy is applied to the premium to lower their individual cost. In many cases, substantially. But the full premium still needs to be paid to cover the cost of claims. The only difference is, taxpayers are paying way more of that premium than they should be.

I probably provided much more education than you really wanted. Oh well, sometimes it is fun to be on the soapbox.

Have a great holiday weekend FDC.

Okay dude. Never mind. Once again you bolster your argument with supposition. "It won't work because of fraud and bloat", sounds a lot like "there are going to be death panels". "It's usually the rich that pay the taxes on health care", "it's all pharmaceuticals fault", "rest assured our super good guy insurance investigators are on top of that fraud stuff". No they aren't and none of that shit adds up to information it adds up to rhetoric and supposition. Where were your investigators when people were dying because they were denied coverage? You going to say that didn't happen? How much money is someone's life worth exactly mags?

Also the Republican representative Cao (R-La) voted for the ACA in the first vote until it was amended by Senate Republicans and sent back for another vote.

You never give the whole truth. You just go on and on with everything else that's wrong with health care and accept your own industry's failures and shortcomings as "not as bad as them" so they're okay?

You can tell me all you want about how wrong I am but there is absolutely zero statistical or evidentiary support for your assertions. Your only solution to fix a system that is flawed and archaic, such as the insurance industry is, is to let it self govern and make medicine cheaper. I can state that as fact because I don't need support to make assertions, do I?
 
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ChrryBlstr

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That is where the vast majority of "profit" is in the healthcare system - by far. Do you suggest that we pay our doctors like they do in European countries - basically max them out at $100K a year. Is that a doctor you want to go to?


Are you inferring that there is a direct correlation between one's salary and one's proficiency?

Does a doctor earning $200K a year in the US automatically make them superior to a doctor making "the max" at $100K a year in Europe?

I'm having some difficulty understanding this perspective.

Peace! :)
 

fatdaddycool

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That's the standard answer by conservatives to combat the notion of universal health care. They all like to insinuate that health care professionals are complaining about insufficient pay. A professionals status is directly affected by their earning income. Lost is the much more actual reality that health care workers are true care givers and may actually like their work as much as any other profession. They seem to think that money drives desire and creativity in all human beings.

He refers to our medicaid system as only paying a portion of medical costs as if those costs are inferred by the practitioner and bit the facility. He also fails to mention that insurance companies also only pay a portion of the actual cost of treatment compared to an individual without insurance. Hospitals have cheaper "insurance rates".

You just have to understand that pandering to the corporate line always comes at a cost to the less fortunate.

What is laughable is his inferences to pharmaceuticals donating mounds of money to president Obama in order to block legislation. That money went to GOP superPACs just like it always has, but you have to blame someone else other than insurance companies. You see, the ACA regulates the insurance industry. It's not the pharmaceutical companies that caused the need for insurance company oversight. It wasn't the food industry backing up the court system with tort cases and unpaid claims. No it couldn't possibly the insurance industry's fault for being so outrageously corrupt and greedy that it became the target of public outcry for reform. It's never the conservatives fault.
 
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