Good old reliable torture....

Happy Hippo

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html



"By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was 'not nice,' he says. 'But we did not physically abuse them.' Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the 'desperate and honorable officers' who wanted him to move faster -- 'if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything,' which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know 'any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea.'

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply 'not a good way to get information.' In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no 'stress methods' at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the 'batting average' might be lower: 'perhaps six out of ten.' And if you beat up the remaining four? 'They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.'

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It 'endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity.' It does 'damage to our country's image' and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be 'making gratuitous enemies' and that prisoner abuse 'is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry.' Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of 'special methods' might help explain why the war is going so badly."


But I am "naive" and "sometimes the best intentions are counter productive in war", so WTF do I know...:shrug:
 

Jabberwocky

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thanks for the post hh...''if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything,' Is this too difficult for some to grasp?

There are tactics in interrogation that work, and there are those that do not. Why are the experts being ignored in this debate?
 

StevieD

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Waiting to hear from those who claim our torture is no more than Frat Stunts.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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ok 2 chirps

Chirp one: How desperate is msnbc and those that put up their links--to try and make case of U.S. interogation of terrorist by using example of someone deported to country they came from. Evidently they feel their viewers are so "uninformed" as to believe Syria is ally of U.S. and was sent there for interrogation purposes?

Chirp Two: Which would come closer to real definition of torture--having to ride with Ted Kennedy from party--or listening to supporters from his state site example above as our interrogation methods. :)
 

StevieD

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Dogs, are you saying that you agree with the torture being carried out in our name in Bush's secret prisons or not. Hard to tell thru your personal attack. :shrug:
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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If someone can explain to what these alleged tortures consist of I might be able to answer better--but believe I have answered that before in any scenerio.
1st It is unfortunate we need to send terrorist anywhere but with some elements in our society who are concerned more with if terrorist are humiliated than protecting americans--unfortunately it is necessary.
--and as I said before if terrorist was caught wih data on computer suggesting imminent threat to americans--I would do "what ever it took" to get the info necessary to save lives.

Maybe we can resolve this banter of "degrading and humiliating" in terms non miltary people can relate to.

I rest my case!
When all of you that are against these tactics of interrogation get home tonight and eat your evening meal with your families. Have talk with them to make sure they are perfectly clear that if they are ever abducted or threatened--your 1st objective will be that assailent will immediately have attorney present and not be humiliated or degraded and if takes several couple of days or weeks- so be it-- they need to understand (if they are still alive) that it is the prudent thing to do and not hold it against you because you believe, rapist/killers/pedophiles ect rights are more important to you than their lives/safety.

Then consider same scenerio with 1000's of lives in the balance.
 

StevieD

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Nice spin Dogs. We are not talking about Humiliating and degrading here. We are talking good, old fashioned torture.
Please read the story and comment on it.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Ive told you what I'd do or want others to do--now go home and explain to your family what you wouldn't do or want done to protect them--fair enough?
 

StevieD

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Another non-answer. Let me ask you this DTB, do you believe in the Geneva Convention in a real war?
 

smurphy

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DTB,

Just curious question - do you side with McCain, Warner, and the other vets in congress who are against Bush's proposed interrogation bill? ...Or Bush?

I find it very interesting that people like McCain who did hard time in POW camps are generally strongly opposed to harsh interrogation methods. It's as if they know first hand how unneccesary and inneffective it is or something.

I wouldn't presume to know, but I'd be much more inclined to trust McCain or Warner's judgement on this than Bush.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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You know Smurph--from what I gather GW and McCains bills are almost cabon copies--the diff is GW wants vaque wording defined and the others don't think we should have our own interpretations. Am I wrong on that assumption?

Wish everyone had view Oreilly last night.His talking points was on torture and his quest afterwards to debate his talking points was Ross the cheif investigator on matter from abc and lady from human watch group.

Ross by no means condoned torture but in his investigation did acknowledge that previous interrogation techniques had uncovered around 20 different plots on U.S and in Khalid Sheikh Mohammed interrogation alone lead to plot against tower in CA and let to capture of 14 other high level Al-quada operatives.

Also noted threatening his children did nothing but the water boarding had him spilling in about 2 1/2 minutes.

So this morning I did search Ross-abc-torture
to pull up his report and counldn't find any of his reported findings he referred to on Oreilly but only list of liberal blogs that failed to mention any of it.
Now you tell me--how can anyone read these blogs and get any gist of matter when they omit the most pertinant info if it doesn't justify their cause.
I am beginning to see why Stevie gets only one side of all these matters--and speaking of Stevie, ironically Oreilly asked the Human Watch gal same question I did Stevie--and she did same song and dance and ranted for about a minute while avoiding to answer simple question--which of course she couldn't without acknowledging-
A: She was wrong
or B: Her concern was greater for terrorist than her own family.
 

StevieD

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I watch Fox just so I can be a day ahead of most arguments on here. :mj07:
Actually, I do like to be informed and read all view points.
What I find amazing about you Dogs is how you type so much but fail to answer a simple question.

Do you believe in torture in a real war?

It would seem to me that if you hold that it is so important that we torture SUSPECTED terrorists then you would be against the Geneva Convention under any circumstances.

I just want to get a simple answer out of you if that is possible.
 

Jabberwocky

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"GW and McCains bills are almost cabon copies--the diff is GW wants vaque wording defined and the others don't think we should have our own interpretations. Am I wrong on that assumption?"

yeah, you are.

"concern was greater for terrorist than her own family."

yeah, thats it...I have pounded this point into the ground, but none of you guys will address it. FIND ME A CREDIBLE EXPERT WHO STATES THAT TORTURE IS AN EFFECTIVE MEANS OF EXTRACTING RELIABLE INFORMATION.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"yeah, you are."

Fine I am willing to listen--but opinion ""yeah, you are." won't cut it--can you elaborate?

________________________________

"Do you believe in torture in a real war?

It would seem to me that if you hold that it is so important that we torture SUSPECTED terrorists then you would be against the Geneva Convention under any circumstances.
______________________________"___
For the last time let me be as precise as I can be.

I won't even get into trival BS of degrading and humiliating that the liberals have been whining about as torture lets go to their worse case scenerio--waterboarding.
I would emphatically say I would agree with this method and would be tickled pink if this was worst any of our soilders were submitted to in past-present and future.

Now tell us what your family said when you told them you would opt for terrorist rights over their safety.
 

gardenweasel

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bush wants blowhards like mccain and warner warner to define what`s allowable under the conventions.....and they`re afraid to....they don`t want the responsibility...

as it stands,it`s a vaguely defined murky generalization....

mccain is lost....and the fact that he was a p.o.w. doesn`t make him omnipotent and beyond repraoch.....or debate....

as it stands now,we have interrogators that are forced to buy liability insurance to protect themselves from the aclu ghouls and idiots like human rights watch...because they have no idea what they can and can`t do.....

we`re talking...in this country...about coerced interrogation......sleep deprovation...extreme temperatures.....slapping on the belly(how horrible)......

again,we`re in the realm of the theoretical....because,when mccain says that it may put our soldiers in harm`s way,he`s certainly not talking about al qaeda or iraq....or reality...real time...

when our guys are taken,you find body parts on the side of the road..eyes....heads...hands..feet.....not red bellies from slapping...

the geneva conventions should not apply to non-uniformed combatants that hide in civilain populations.....that is the perversion of the intent of what the conventions are meant to do...it was meant to protect civilians and civilize war between nation states....

neither means a rat`s ass to terrorists...

the supreme court got it wrong....and this is why it`s dangerous to elect a far left wing president...

we have lawyers fighting a "war" instead of the military....
 
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gardenweasel

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i agree..no sawing necks, beating, electrocution, stringing up, knee-capping, anal probes, or forced conversions....that`s what THEY do.....


although,i do have a problem with the "panties on the head" torture..... especially if they show evidence of skid marks....

""ewwwwwwwww. i'll talk!"...

we do know that they`re conditioned to torture,though...amadinnerjacket has been reading chomsky...

he's torturing himself.....
 

StevieD

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DTB, you still refuse to answer a simple yes or no question. Do you agree with the Geneva Convention. That is all I am asking.

If you show me where I said I was for terrorists rights as you have alleged three or four times in this thread alone I will address it.

So you have two tasks. Both should be simple. One, Yes or no, Do you agree with the Geneva Convention? In a conventional War.

and number two show me where I advocated terrorists rights.
 
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