Guess we won't be hearing anymore about Kerry's medals...
- Thread starter ocelot
- Start date
Do you really think anyone cares what GW did in the guard? This has been hashed and rehashed since 94.
This is the question you have to ask yourself--what is a more interesting read--episodes of some one skating through the National guard or a bogus self acclaimed war hero getting caught.
Regardless of out come of election I already have my yah yahs knowing Sorus/Moore/movie stars/moveon.org--ect are relieved of 63 million of their funds by a bunch of vets on a shoestring budget
This is the question you have to ask yourself--what is a more interesting read--episodes of some one skating through the National guard or a bogus self acclaimed war hero getting caught.
Regardless of out come of election I already have my yah yahs knowing Sorus/Moore/movie stars/moveon.org--ect are relieved of 63 million of their funds by a bunch of vets on a shoestring budget
You are a real gem DTB...blind refusal to acknowledge the ugly truth about Boy George. Your boy is going down - get used to it.
Mr. Barnes....he is a laughingstock of corruption in Texas....do a quick search on Sharpstown and Lottery linked with Barnes' name and it will tell you all you need to know
In addition, a Democratic supporter all the way....
why is there no media-led credibility attack on this guy?
Barnes Is Considered "A Definite In" In Kerry Administration. "[Barnes has] known Kerry since the 1980s. 'I don't know who's going to be in and who's going to be out' of a possible Kerry administration, Barnes said. 'But John Kerry has been sympathetic to Texas in the past. ... I would expect him to listen to our problems if he's in the White House.' Barnes is a definite in, though he says he'll keep working as a lobbyist based in Austin." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)
Barnes Owns Home Near Kerry's In Nantucket. "Now a lobbyist and consultant, Barnes has a house near Kerry's in Nantucket, Mass., and committed to Kerry's White House bid nearly three years ago on the grounds of the Nantucket Golf Club." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)
Barnes Is Kerry "Super-Bundler" Fundraiser. "Eleven [Kerry super-bundlers] are from Texas, including Dallas plaintiff's lawyer Fred Baron and lobbyist Ben Barnes, a Lyndon Johnson prot?g? who served as lieutenant governor and is one of the national Democrat Party's most prodigious fund-raisers. 'If someone had told me last quarter that John Kerry would have raised as much money as he's been able to, I'd have said it couldn't happen. But I'm seeing it happen,' said Mr. Barnes, whose lobby clients have included American Airlines and the chemical giant Huntsman Corp." (Wayne Slater, "Vested Interests In Kerry Lawyers, Lobbyists Top Donors List," Dallas Morning News, 7/26/04)
In addition, a Democratic supporter all the way....
why is there no media-led credibility attack on this guy?
Barnes Is Considered "A Definite In" In Kerry Administration. "[Barnes has] known Kerry since the 1980s. 'I don't know who's going to be in and who's going to be out' of a possible Kerry administration, Barnes said. 'But John Kerry has been sympathetic to Texas in the past. ... I would expect him to listen to our problems if he's in the White House.' Barnes is a definite in, though he says he'll keep working as a lobbyist based in Austin." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)
Barnes Owns Home Near Kerry's In Nantucket. "Now a lobbyist and consultant, Barnes has a house near Kerry's in Nantucket, Mass., and committed to Kerry's White House bid nearly three years ago on the grounds of the Nantucket Golf Club." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)
Barnes Is Kerry "Super-Bundler" Fundraiser. "Eleven [Kerry super-bundlers] are from Texas, including Dallas plaintiff's lawyer Fred Baron and lobbyist Ben Barnes, a Lyndon Johnson prot?g? who served as lieutenant governor and is one of the national Democrat Party's most prodigious fund-raisers. 'If someone had told me last quarter that John Kerry would have raised as much money as he's been able to, I'd have said it couldn't happen. But I'm seeing it happen,' said Mr. Barnes, whose lobby clients have included American Airlines and the chemical giant Huntsman Corp." (Wayne Slater, "Vested Interests In Kerry Lawyers, Lobbyists Top Donors List," Dallas Morning News, 7/26/04)
I don't remember George BUsh ever bringing up his service record. He also has signed whatever form you have to sign to release and make all those records public. John Kerry has not.
i think we already knew about his service record....no "new"s here
the way the media is harping all over this and giving people like this guy any sort of credibiility IS an issue however
the way they went after the swift boat people, many of whom were non-partisan and the way they jump all over this story is absolutely outrageous....
this guy is a crook like half of our politicians and as usual, because he is a democrat, he is not scrutinized
the way the media is harping all over this and giving people like this guy any sort of credibiility IS an issue however
the way they went after the swift boat people, many of whom were non-partisan and the way they jump all over this story is absolutely outrageous....
this guy is a crook like half of our politicians and as usual, because he is a democrat, he is not scrutinized
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com honed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.
But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.
"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."
He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.
"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.
"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.
"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."
But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.
"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."
According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com honed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.
But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.
"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."
He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.
"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.
"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.
"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."
But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.
"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."
According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."
ocelot said:
i guess you don't understand that mr. Barnes is the guy who claims he gave Bush preference
to be honest, i believe it.....most conservatives probably do not, but i believe GWB had preference given to him as many influential families did....
but it is still funny to see this guy act like he is just a concerned citizen bothered by his conscience and the media does nothing to scrutinize him...
Just saw update on this Doc and for now CBS has not responed to questions on issue.
Ocelot I hope Kerry at least pulls New Hamp as I have wager on him there--I once thought it safe but don't know now--the Bush ( I believe +185) longshot in AZ is looking good though
also instead of remarks like
"Your boy is going down - get used to it."
I believe your convictions would best be served loading the wagon on Kerry at todays odds
Games in Orange are circled and not accepted in any Parlay or Teaser
Time # PRESIDENTAL ELECTION Odds
01-Nov---08:00p 200 ODDS TO WIN
01-Nov---08:00p 201 GEORGE W BUSH -235
01-Nov---08:00p 202 JOHN KERRY +160
Ocelot I hope Kerry at least pulls New Hamp as I have wager on him there--I once thought it safe but don't know now--the Bush ( I believe +185) longshot in AZ is looking good though
also instead of remarks like
"Your boy is going down - get used to it."
I believe your convictions would best be served loading the wagon on Kerry at todays odds
Games in Orange are circled and not accepted in any Parlay or Teaser
Time # PRESIDENTAL ELECTION Odds
01-Nov---08:00p 200 ODDS TO WIN
01-Nov---08:00p 201 GEORGE W BUSH -235
01-Nov---08:00p 202 JOHN KERRY +160
some additional data on 60 minute report---might be tit in wringer before this is over especially in light of them refusing to state where they got so called memos from a man who is now dead and can neither concur or deny.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap/20040910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_guard_flights
Meanwhile, questions were raised Thursday about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos purporting to have been written by one of Bush's commanders in 1972 and 1973. The memos, which were publicized by CBS News on its "60 Minutes" program, say Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.
The network defended the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.
But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.
"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."
The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.
"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.
Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript ? a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" ? as evidence indicating forgery.
Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.
"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap/20040910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_guard_flights
Meanwhile, questions were raised Thursday about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos purporting to have been written by one of Bush's commanders in 1972 and 1973. The memos, which were publicized by CBS News on its "60 Minutes" program, say Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.
The network defended the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.
But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.
"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."
The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.
"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.
Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript ? a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" ? as evidence indicating forgery.
Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.
"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.
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"The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s. "
These "typography" experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font that was used!?!? How expert could they be?
These "typography" experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font that was used!?!? How expert could they be?
What does Kerry no about blood shed in any war?
The closest he has ever gotten to anything resembling blood is probably Heinz ketchup... :142smilie
The closest he has ever gotten to anything resembling blood is probably Heinz ketchup... :142smilie
Ocelot I am not saying one way or another yet but I think issue will be resolved. I think as you it should be concluded after reseach on probabilty of it being forgery or not.--Of course if 60 minutes volunteered where they got it, it would probably narrow it down.
there is one other item that has me perplexed--why did liberal media sue to have all of GW Bushes records released but to date Kerry refuses to have his released and no one is suing??????
I think they should make it mandatory all records of all politicians should be released.
there is one other item that has me perplexed--why did liberal media sue to have all of GW Bushes records released but to date Kerry refuses to have his released and no one is suing??????
I think they should make it mandatory all records of all politicians should be released.
Guys lets try not to me as nuts here as the adds on TV are. Or the networks who are to stay independent as much as possiable. But even they are takeing sides. CBS and FOX are becoming jokes.
The Adds are like these parties think there telling there stories to 17 year olds. Hold it. In fact some 17 year olds can see thru the smoke better then some 40 year olds do.
This nam chit is getting under my old skin. As is the fact they can use IT to skid around the majior issues of TODAY. Both groups really P me off with there idiots running around like were all dieing tomorow. We have big problems here at home and someone better take them head on soon.
The Adds are like these parties think there telling there stories to 17 year olds. Hold it. In fact some 17 year olds can see thru the smoke better then some 40 year olds do.
This nam chit is getting under my old skin. As is the fact they can use IT to skid around the majior issues of TODAY. Both groups really P me off with there idiots running around like were all dieing tomorow. We have big problems here at home and someone better take them head on soon.
Source Pulls Support for Memos on Bush Guard Service
Sunday, September 12, 2004
WASHINGTON ? A key source who was named to back up CBS News' claims about the authenticity of documents used in a report on President Bush's (search) Air National Guard service has recanted his support, saying the network got the information wrong.
Retired Major Gen. Bobby Hodges (search), a key source behind a "60 Minutes" story that claims Bush shirked his guard duty, said that now that he has seen the memos, he does not believe they are authentic. Hodges told FOX News that CBS did not call him until two days before the piece aired on the network last Wednesday night, and never offered to show him the memos. He said the network only wanted to discuss their content, not their authenticity.
CBS, however, is standing behind its report that Bush refused a direct order to take a required medical examination and discussed with the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian (search) how he could skip drills in order to go work on a political campaign. The memos, which carry the signature of Killian, who was commander of Bush's Texas Air National Guard (search) fighter squadron, are disputed by Killian's son and wife, who said Killian did not keep records like the ones of which CBS had copies. Killian died in 1984. Bush served in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973.
? Bush Memos (pdf)
In addition, on Saturday, the Dallas Morning News reported that one of the officers who allegedly pushed to clean up Bush's record in August 1973 had, in fact, retired 18 months earlier, on March 1, 1972.
The "60 Minutes" report relied on a memo from Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt, former commander of the Texas Guard, which allegedly pressured another officer to "sugar coat" Bush's record. But the paper reports that Staudt was long gone by the time the memo was supposed to have been written.
CBS News responded to news reports questioning the documents in its Saturday evening broadcast, and issued a statement on its Web site.
"We believed General Hodges the first time we spoke with him. We believe the documents to be genuine. We stand by our story and will continue to report on it," the network states.
CBS has now spoken out twice since it came under fire this week that the documents used in its report are forgeries. In its Web report, the network listed several arguments about the authenticity of the papers.
Among the claims questioning the veracity of the documents is that the superscript that elevates the abbreviation after numbers ? for instance a raised "th" in "111th" ? was not available in 1972 when the documents were allegedly written. But, the network says, other military records released by the White House show superscript used as far back as 1968.
Another claim is that the New Times Roman typeface was not available back then. "But the owner of the company that distributes this typing style told CBS News that it has been available since 1931," the network reported.
The network also cites document expert Phillip Broussard, who had expressed suspicions about the documents, telling CBS News that he could not dismiss the documents as fake and would need to do more analysis before making a decision.
However, document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise Valley, Ariz., who examined the documents for the Associated Press, told the news agency that she was "virtually certain" the papers were generated by computer.
Lines said that meant she could testify in court beyond a reasonable doubt that her opinion was that the memos were written on a computer.
The White House has not contested the authenticity of the documents, but Bush aides have said the president's honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his duties for the Guard.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan added that the memos may have surfaced as part of "an orchestrated effort by Democrats and the Kerry campaign to tear down the president."
Nation editor David Corn said the dispute over whether the documents are true does not answer fundamental questions over Bush's service.
"The key facts that they talk to remain key facts: that is that Bush didn't give a good explanation about skipping out on his physical exam, that he says he was in Alabama. The records don't show that; he can't bring anyone forward to prove that he was there," Corn told FOX News.
Hodges said CBS anchor Dan Rather called him Friday night after the controversy hit, at which time he said he took Rather through the memos and explained why he believed they are not real. Hodges said the anchorman told him that document experts have confirmed their authenticity and would stand by the story.
Killian's former colleagues are also having trouble determing the authenticity of the papers.
Robert Strong, a former colleague of Killian's, said he's not a forensic expert and isn't vouching for the documents, but he didn't see anything about the memos that would make him think they were fakes.
"I didn't see anything that was inconsistent with how we did business," Strong said in an interview. "It looked like the sort of thing that Jerry Killian would have done or said. He was a very professional guy."
Retired Col. Maurice Udell, the unit's instructor pilot who helped train Bush, said Friday he thought the documents were fake.
"I completely am disgusted with this [report] I saw on '60 Minutes,'" Udell said. "That's not true. I was there. I knew Jerry Killian. I went to Vietnam with Jerry Killian in 1968."
The attacks and counter-attacks come less than two months before a presidential election in which past service by the candidates and the future of the nation's security have commingled. A Newsweek poll released this week shows Bush's lead over challenger John Kerry slipped in the past week from an 11 point advantage reported after the Republican convention to six points now with Bush at 49 percent and Kerry at 43.
John Avlon, author of "Independent Nation" and a columnist for the New York Sun, said even with this controversy seemingly favoring them, Democrats are missing opportunities to capitalize at every turn.
"Politics follows the laws of physics ? for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. But that's just the problem. With [vice presidential candidate John] Edwards and everything else, they are reacting and trying to get their game on a week after Labor Day," he said.
Sunday, September 12, 2004
WASHINGTON ? A key source who was named to back up CBS News' claims about the authenticity of documents used in a report on President Bush's (search) Air National Guard service has recanted his support, saying the network got the information wrong.
Retired Major Gen. Bobby Hodges (search), a key source behind a "60 Minutes" story that claims Bush shirked his guard duty, said that now that he has seen the memos, he does not believe they are authentic. Hodges told FOX News that CBS did not call him until two days before the piece aired on the network last Wednesday night, and never offered to show him the memos. He said the network only wanted to discuss their content, not their authenticity.
CBS, however, is standing behind its report that Bush refused a direct order to take a required medical examination and discussed with the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian (search) how he could skip drills in order to go work on a political campaign. The memos, which carry the signature of Killian, who was commander of Bush's Texas Air National Guard (search) fighter squadron, are disputed by Killian's son and wife, who said Killian did not keep records like the ones of which CBS had copies. Killian died in 1984. Bush served in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973.
? Bush Memos (pdf)
In addition, on Saturday, the Dallas Morning News reported that one of the officers who allegedly pushed to clean up Bush's record in August 1973 had, in fact, retired 18 months earlier, on March 1, 1972.
The "60 Minutes" report relied on a memo from Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt, former commander of the Texas Guard, which allegedly pressured another officer to "sugar coat" Bush's record. But the paper reports that Staudt was long gone by the time the memo was supposed to have been written.
CBS News responded to news reports questioning the documents in its Saturday evening broadcast, and issued a statement on its Web site.
"We believed General Hodges the first time we spoke with him. We believe the documents to be genuine. We stand by our story and will continue to report on it," the network states.
CBS has now spoken out twice since it came under fire this week that the documents used in its report are forgeries. In its Web report, the network listed several arguments about the authenticity of the papers.
Among the claims questioning the veracity of the documents is that the superscript that elevates the abbreviation after numbers ? for instance a raised "th" in "111th" ? was not available in 1972 when the documents were allegedly written. But, the network says, other military records released by the White House show superscript used as far back as 1968.
Another claim is that the New Times Roman typeface was not available back then. "But the owner of the company that distributes this typing style told CBS News that it has been available since 1931," the network reported.
The network also cites document expert Phillip Broussard, who had expressed suspicions about the documents, telling CBS News that he could not dismiss the documents as fake and would need to do more analysis before making a decision.
However, document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise Valley, Ariz., who examined the documents for the Associated Press, told the news agency that she was "virtually certain" the papers were generated by computer.
Lines said that meant she could testify in court beyond a reasonable doubt that her opinion was that the memos were written on a computer.
The White House has not contested the authenticity of the documents, but Bush aides have said the president's honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his duties for the Guard.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan added that the memos may have surfaced as part of "an orchestrated effort by Democrats and the Kerry campaign to tear down the president."
Nation editor David Corn said the dispute over whether the documents are true does not answer fundamental questions over Bush's service.
"The key facts that they talk to remain key facts: that is that Bush didn't give a good explanation about skipping out on his physical exam, that he says he was in Alabama. The records don't show that; he can't bring anyone forward to prove that he was there," Corn told FOX News.
Hodges said CBS anchor Dan Rather called him Friday night after the controversy hit, at which time he said he took Rather through the memos and explained why he believed they are not real. Hodges said the anchorman told him that document experts have confirmed their authenticity and would stand by the story.
Killian's former colleagues are also having trouble determing the authenticity of the papers.
Robert Strong, a former colleague of Killian's, said he's not a forensic expert and isn't vouching for the documents, but he didn't see anything about the memos that would make him think they were fakes.
"I didn't see anything that was inconsistent with how we did business," Strong said in an interview. "It looked like the sort of thing that Jerry Killian would have done or said. He was a very professional guy."
Retired Col. Maurice Udell, the unit's instructor pilot who helped train Bush, said Friday he thought the documents were fake.
"I completely am disgusted with this [report] I saw on '60 Minutes,'" Udell said. "That's not true. I was there. I knew Jerry Killian. I went to Vietnam with Jerry Killian in 1968."
The attacks and counter-attacks come less than two months before a presidential election in which past service by the candidates and the future of the nation's security have commingled. A Newsweek poll released this week shows Bush's lead over challenger John Kerry slipped in the past week from an 11 point advantage reported after the Republican convention to six points now with Bush at 49 percent and Kerry at 43.
John Avlon, author of "Independent Nation" and a columnist for the New York Sun, said even with this controversy seemingly favoring them, Democrats are missing opportunities to capitalize at every turn.
"Politics follows the laws of physics ? for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. But that's just the problem. With [vice presidential candidate John] Edwards and everything else, they are reacting and trying to get their game on a week after Labor Day," he said.
