GWB's brother in charge of security at WTC on 9-11

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
O.K. smart man.

How many buildings in "our worlds history" that were constructed like the Twin Towers have been hit by an airplane that weighs 125 tons, carrying 11,500 gallons of jet fuel, and traveling at 400+ mph?

If so, what were the results of said event?

I will patiently await your answer Dr. Hawking.

I think he misspoke. They were the first steel buildings to come down the way they did by fire. What about the steel experts that say the steel didn't give,there were no sighs of buckle, there had to be some kind of demolition ?
 
Last edited:

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
I am a practicing structural engineer with 28 years experience and throughout my career, I have been involved primarily in the design of high-rise buildings so as you can imagine, I was and remain extremely interested in the collapse of these buildings. As a result, I have read literally dozens of papers on this subject in engineering journals from all over the world and I have not seen a single credible source that has disputed the finding that the buildings collapsed due to the heat induced weakening and subsequent failure of the structural frame.

Your statement that ?there are hundreds of engineers" that disagree with this conclusion is blatantly false. Certainly there are those whose motive is to perpetuate the conspiracy theories that you have apparently fallen for and to them I have a simple question.

Why, or for that matter how, would anyone prepare these buildings for implosion to exactly coincide with the impact of two separate 787 airliners crashing into them and why would this even be necessary?

I can assure you that my training and professional experience qualifies me to state that the heat generated by the jet fuel in these crashes was more than enough to sufficiently weaken the steel frame to the point that the columns yielded and buckled, rendering them incapable of supporting the collateral load of the floors above. When bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength is reduced to roughly 10% of its room temperature value.

In my professional opinion, the following findings by the NIST are dead on:

(1) The impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors.

(2) The subsequent unusually large jet-fuel deposits ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers.

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

You of course, are free to believe what ever you choose.

everything you say is logical and makes sense but, what about what the firemen saw and heard. One thing that you said doesn't make sense is : when buildings are set for demolition, they cut threw the steel 90%. I have read about demolitions of steel building and I have never heard of this. It doesn't even make sense. It's only one point but if you are off on this one. what else are you wrong about ?
 

BOHICA

Turgid Member
Forum Member
Apr 6, 2001
280
6
0
I think he misspoke. They were the first steel buildings to come down the way they did by fire. What about the steel experts that say the steel didn't give,there were no sighs of buckle, there had to be some kind of demolition ?

You do not need to apologize for sponge. I am sure in his world, many things like this happen all of the time.

Yes, there was a fire, but has anyone been able to determine how much the buildings were compromised by the impact of the jets?

I would agree that if only a fire had occurred that day the buildings would still be standing. But if you add the other variables in the equation, it does not seem unreasonable to me that the buildings would fail.
 

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
Judge & GW : our government told us days after that it was ok to go back to work close to ground zero, do you think that it was safe. They said it was safe and that the air would not cause any harm . Were they right ? It doesn't even make sense that they would make such a claim.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
You do not need to apologize for sponge. I am sure in his world, many things like this happen all of the time.

Yes, there was a fire, but has anyone been able to determine how much the buildings were compromised by the impact of the jets?

I would agree that if only a fire had occurred that day the buildings would still be standing. But if you add the other variables in the equation, it does not seem unreasonable to me that the buildings would fail.

First of all sweetie it wasn't jets that hit them it was one jet apiece. 2nd no jet hit WTC building 7 and it fell just like the others? They say it was internal fire from debris from the other two but mysteriously no building fell around WTC7. In those buildings were from 3 to 4thousand files of wall street investigations. Now on to your other complaints. If this jet hit the bottom of the building then i might buy this story but they hit the top. Fire jets what is the difference. I know the fuel is hotter. Blah blah blah. Okay genius in 1945 a B52 bomber was lost in the fog and crashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. 14 dead a million dollars worth of damage. The building still stands today. Feb 14th 1975 3 alarm fire broke out in the north tower. Building still stood back then. May 4th 62 story skyscaper in LA 4 floors burned for four hours building still stands. Feb 23 1991 (in Philly)38 ft skyscraper built in 1991 burnt for 19 hours spread thru 8 floors. Building still stands today. Oct 17th 2004 56 story skyscraper built 1976 in Venezuela burnt for 17 hours spread 26th floors. Building still standing. Feb 12th 2005 the Windsor building in Madrid burned 24 hrs. top ten floors fell off but the building as a whole still stands.
Now you answer me a few question honey.7/6/01 3,150 put options were placed on united Airlines 4 times the daily normal. 7/7/01 27,294put options put on Boeing airline stock 5 times their daily average. 7/10/01 4,516 put options put on American Airlines stocks 11 times their daily average. I ask you who was putting this money shorting these airline stocks with such a heavy volume 2 months before 9/11?
 
Last edited:

StevieD

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 18, 2002
9,509
44
48
72
Boston
i speak from sheer logic...not from hatred of bush.......or anything regarding bush..or anybody.......from my latest count,there are about 382 variations on the 9/11 conspiracy theory...about 276 are bush driven.....the rest implicate the joos.....

lol...that`s right...agenda driven...shocker!!

use your head....i'm curious as to how many people you beauties believe were involved on 9/11..... after all given the wtc, crash/shooting down of united 93, the pentagon, the "stand down" of the interceptors etc... thousands would be involved.....yet no one approached to participate in the conspiracy had second thoughts before or after 9/11???......

i think the greatest line regarding the implausibility of conspiracy theories came from ben franklin:

"three people may keep a secret as long as two of them are dead.".....

one of the tragedies of our era is that this trash even has to be debunked....


i love the attitude that the bryanz` of the world have.....this is the same attitude that all these cocky liberals have...how is is possible that guys in a cave were able to perpetrate this crime in the most heavily defended airspace in the world?.... they believe they are so smart, that surely no one from another part of the world could outsmart them....

after hearing all this crap.....and hearing over 4 years of constant bush bashing(and i`m no bush lover...he`s done plenty i disagree with)...but,he`s not the spawn of the devil.....the libs have managed to portray bush as a serial killer, satan worshipping, high school drop out type who accidently got hired....

this brainwashing stuff the libs do works.....they just repeat the same crap over and over again in the media and people start believing it.....

it is the same attitude they take towards terrorism..... they think that it's not necessary to take the war to the terrorists because there's no way they'll bring the war over here....

the liberals are literally their own 'jim jones' cult.....they have taken the truth and twisted all into a lie so they can have power over people's lives.....

it is truly scary indeed...

the "9/11 truth" movement is akin to a cholera epidemic... only the weak succumb.....


btw...thanks for the info,judge....i`ve read that and it makes sense to me...the plane is nothing more than a shell loaded with jet fuel........


bryanz...."I think if you explore this ,you will find why you are such an asshole. Seriously ! You are so scared you can't post where you are from. Where you from son ?"


dewd....you`d make a great subject for some student's psychology thesis.....

lol

You speak from logic? That will be a first. You don't hate Bush? There is a shoker, Hold onto your hat. I do hate Bush. Who do I think is involved in the conspiracy? I think it is the same people who are behind your mainstream media conspiracy. That's all I wanted to say.
 

dr. freeze

BIG12 KING
Forum Member
Aug 25, 2001
7,170
8
0
Mansion
its amazing how the government cant wipe its own arse but these wackos are always insisting it can always pull the most incredible conspiracies
 

TonyTT

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2002
353
1
0
71
Ohio
its amazing how the government cant wipe its own arse but these wackos are always insisting it can always pull the most incredible conspiracies


I take it then that you aren't familiar with Operation Ajax that was actually kept pretty quiet for decades. We actually used terrorists to blow up mosques and kill folks in Iran ...making it look like the elected leader Mosedeq was responsible. He was arrested by his own people, put on trial and our boy the shah was ushered into power.
Then there was Operation Gladio in Italy. More folks were killed through terrorism making it look like the commies did it. The jury is still out on ALDO MORRO and the RED BRIGADE, as more info is released it looks more and more like it too was a part of Gladio.
Operation Condor is another involving Latin American countries. Bottom line is that conspiracies have happened by our intell agencies, which I believe are the best in the world. I also believe that they have a strong influence on other agencies such as the notorious Pakistani ISI and the Saudi secret police.
 

StevieD

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 18, 2002
9,509
44
48
72
Boston
what?

never head such a thing champ

Originally Posted by dr. freeze
i just watched the evening news and they ALL reported on her talking about "breaking through the marble ceiling"

NOT ONE showed her yelling "Let's hear it for the power!" immediately thereafter

Much less having a panel of "impartial commentators" criticizing this statement and speaking of how unprofessional, arrogant, and disrespectful to every American man AND woman out there
:shrug:
 

StevieD

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 18, 2002
9,509
44
48
72
Boston
Originally Posted by dr. freeze
"why does the leftist news media not report this?????

why are the "watchdogs" not all over this outrageous statement???

the silence is deafening

imagine if Cheney or someone had made such a claim

the media would be all over it "


No, you don't believe in conspiracies do ya punk?
 

Spytheweb

Registered User
Forum Member
Sep 27, 2005
1,171
14
0
No steel frame building ever collapsed because of fire

No steel frame building ever collapsed because of fire

not before 9-11, not since. But on 9-11 you had 3. The North tower caught fire in 1975 and burned for 3 hours, the tower never fell. Why did a fireman say on the radio, who was in one of the towers, that there were 2 pockets of fire and the he could knock them out with 2 lines of water. If the fire was so hot how could the fireman get close to a fire that could melt steel. Besides when the planes hit the towers the fire balls burned off most of the fuel. The fact that there was so much smoke shows that it was a poor fire, not hot. Days after the collapse the fires that were still burning in the basement were above 1300 degrees. Support beams that were still in the ground were cut at a 45 degree angle and edges looked like what a candle does when wax flows down them. What could cause that kind of heat?
 

BOHICA

Turgid Member
Forum Member
Apr 6, 2001
280
6
0
First of all sweetie it wasn't jets that hit them it was one jet apiece. Where in any of my posts did I talk about multiple planes hitting any building? 2nd no jet hit WTC building 7 and it fell just like the others? They say it was internal fire from debris from the other two but mysteriously no building fell around WTC7. I do not know what happened to building 7, but what does it have to do with the collapse of the towers? In those buildings were from 3 to 4thousand files of wall street investigations. Now on to your other complaints. If this jet hit the bottom of the building then i might buy this story but they hit the top. Fire jets what is the difference. I know the fuel is hotter. Blah blah blah. Fire, jets, what is the difference? Your advanced placement in Physics at PS 007 is really paying off. Okay genius in 1945 a B52 bomber was lost in the fog and crashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. 14 dead a million dollars worth of damage. The building still stands today. Hate to burst your bubble here, but the B52 did not become operational until the 1950's. Also, was the Empire State Building constructed the same way as the Twin Towers? I will give you a hint here (NO). You are comparing apples to oranges. Feb 14th 1975 3 alarm fire broke out in the north tower. Building still stood back then. May 4th 62 story skyscaper in LA 4 floors burned for four hours building still stands. Feb 23 1991 (in Philly)38 ft skyscraper built in 1991 burnt for 19 hours spread thru 8 floors. Building still stands today. Oct 17th 2004 56 story skyscraper built 1976 in Venezuela burnt for 17 hours spread 26th floors. Building still standing. Feb 12th 2005 the Windsor building in Madrid burned 24 hrs. top ten floors fell off but the building as a whole still stands. If you would take the time to actually read what I posted, I said that if there had only been a fire, I believe that those buildings would still be standing.
Now you answer me a few question honey.7/6/01 3,150 put options were placed on united Airlines 4 times the daily normal. 7/7/01 27,294put options put on Boeing airline stock 5 times their daily average. 7/10/01 4,516 put options put on American Airlines stocks 11 times their daily average. I ask you who was putting this money shorting these airline stocks with such a heavy volume 2 months before 9/11?

I am not sure what your last paragraph has to do with the physical collapse of the Twin Towers. Please do not try to let any scientific studies cloud your already well informed position.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
Boch its nice to see you have the ability to post some thoughts instead of your uncanny ability to write a one or two sentence insult. Didn't think you had it in you.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
. building as a whole still stands. If you would take the time to actually read what I posted, I said that if there had only been a fire, I believe that those buildings would still be standing.


Do these buildings have kitchens or furnaces? Im sure these kitchens have propane tanks or some other type of highly flammable material that had to blow up. All buildings still standing.
 

The Judge

Pura Vida!
Forum Member
Aug 5, 2004
4,909
29
0
SJO
not before 9-11, not since. But on 9-11 you had 3. The North tower caught fire in 1975 and burned for 3 hours, the tower never fell. Why did a fireman say on the radio, who was in one of the towers, that there were 2 pockets of fire and the he could knock them out with 2 lines of water. If the fire was so hot how could the fireman get close to a fire that could melt steel. Besides when the planes hit the towers the fire balls burned off most of the fuel. The fact that there was so much smoke shows that it was a poor fire, not hot. Days after the collapse the fires that were still burning in the basement were above 1300 degrees. Support beams that were still in the ground were cut at a 45 degree angle and edges looked like what a candle does when wax flows down them. What could cause that kind of heat?
To state that no steel framed buildings have ever collapsed due to a fire before 9/11 is akin to saying that no island had ever been completely destroyed by a bomb prior to Hiroshima.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large deposit of jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

The impact was one of the largest contributing factors to the collapse which is the part of the story that conspiracy theorists like to forget when comparing these collapses with others. The impacts caused real trauma to both buildings by taking out many of the perimeter columns in the towers as shown in the picture below. The towers had a number of floors destroyed from about the perimeter columns to the core. The impact sliced the aluminum aircraft into smaller pieces but the speed of the craft also sliced through the steel like butter.

wtchole.jpg


The impact brought a 500 mile an hour wind to the impact floors as a wall of debris traveled from one end of the buildings to the other. The jet fuel blast added to the event with more than just a pyrotechnic show. This high wind (debris and blast) blew the debris into the furthest corners of the building. It obviously stripped the ceiling tile system off in an instant. Photographic evidence shows no sign of ceiling tiles on the impact floors. In that same instant the all important "blown on" fire proofing was removed from the trusses and some columns. This could be seen from photographic evidence in the NIST report. The NIST also replicated the fireproofing and conditions during impact and found the fireproofing easily blew off.

trussproof.jpg


In viewing these pictures of the severed perimeter columns, I do not understand how any rational person would think that explosives would have been needed to bring these buildings down. The impact from the airplanes had already accomplished what it would take several thousand of pounds of explosives to do. The fire caused by the massive amounts of jet fuel that the planes were carrying simply finished the job of weakening to the point of failure, the remaining and now overstressed steel frame. I repeat my earlier question:

Why, or for that matter how, would anyone prepare these buildings for implosion to exactly coincide with the impact of two separate 787 airliners crashing into them and why would this even be necessary?


Incidentally, on November 1, 2006 another steel framed building collapsed due to fire in Worcestershire, England. A spokesman for the fire service said the blaze had resulted in a black smoke cloud which could be seen for miles. He added: "Intense heat buckled the steel girders holding the roof."

In case you were wondering, the material burning inside of that building was toilet paper.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/6105942.stm


When the J.L. Hudson Department Store in downtown Chicago was imploded, Controlled Demolition, Inc.?s 12 person loading crew took twenty four days to place 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on columns on nine levels of the complex. Over 36,000 ft of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay elements were installed in CDI?s implosion initiation system, some to create the 36 primary implosion sequence and another 216 micro-delays to keep down the detonation overpressure from the 2,728 lbs of explosives which would be detonated during the demolition.

Columns weighing over 500 lb/ft, having up to 7.25 inch thick laminated steel flanges and 6 inch thick webs, defied commercially available shaped charge technology. CDI analyzed each column, determined the actual load it carried and then used cutting torches to scarf-off steel plates in order to use smaller shaped charges to cut the remaining steel. CDI wanted to keep the charges as small as possible to reduce air over pressure that could break windows in adjacent properties. At 29 floors above the street level, this remains the tallest steel framed building to have ever been demolished utilizing explosives.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030225133807
 

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
Your two buildings are very small compared to the towers. I'll bet the grade of steel was far less. The towers were hit high up, how did the planes damage the base and basements. The planes had hit, were burning and there was no fire down on the lower floors. For that fire to burn that hot, the jet fuel had to get to the bottom, it never did. You still had a 90 floor base. What brought that down ?
 

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
The toilet paper building is still standing, it buckled, that's not what happened to the towers. The towers went down like the department store. You actually make a good case against your case. Funny stuff !
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
Your two buildings are very small compared to the towers. I'll bet the grade of steel was far less. The towers were hit high up, how did the planes damage the base and basements. The planes had hit, were burning and there was no fire down on the lower floors. For that fire to burn that hot, the jet fuel had to get to the bottom, it never did. You still had a 90 floor base. What brought that down ?

Exactly. they were hit up top and they came crashing down like they were imploded. When i saw this i was standing with seven guys and all of us worked on skyscapers from the ground up and all said the same thing. We all said "these things fell like they were rigged". Why when buildings are implodded they are strategically set with explosives? why even waste time doing that it might be cheaper to just fly a plain into them. I might buy this if they were burning for a day but neither were. The real joke is the one that fell without being hit. they said that one was the third building in history to crumble because of a fire. The first two happen that day.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top