"He should apologize."

Chopsticks

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Op/Ed - New York Post

THE SLANDER THAT MADE JOHN KERRY A STAR
Fri Apr 23, 2:15 AM ET

Thirty-three years ago today, a young, unknown political activist named
John F. Kerry sat down before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
and
unleashed a bitter verbal broadside against the war in Vietnam - and,
with
particularly harsh invective, against the young Americans who were
fighting
it.

Kerry charged that U.S. soldiers routinely committed the most gruesome
of
atrocities - "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a
day-to-day
basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

The allegations electrified Washington - and made Kerry a national
celebrity.

But the charges were slanderous lies.

"John Kerry 1971 testimony slandered an entire generation of soldiers,"
writes military historian Mackubin Thomas Owens, who led a Marine
infantry
platoon into combat in Vietnam.

"He said in essence that his fellow veterans had committed unparalleled
war
crimes in Vietnam as a matter of course - indeed, that it was American
policy to commit such atrocities," Owens writes.

The libel served Kerry well, though.

The better part of a half-century has passed; the nation is once again
at
war - and the junior senator from Massachusetts now stands as the
presumptive presidential nominee of the Democratic Party.

Surely it is no coincidence that now - after all these years - John F.
Kerry is trying to rewrite the dialogue that attended his first moments
in
the national spotlight.

On "Meet the Press" last weekend, Kerry maintained that while his
"words
were honest," they were nonetheless "a little bit over the top."

No regrets.

No contrition.

And, certainly, no apology.
"A little bit over the top"?

Well, here's what the then-national spokesman for Vietnam Veterans
Against
the War had to say on April 23, 1971:

"[U.S. servicemen] had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads,
taped
wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the
power,
cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed
villages
in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun,
poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South
Vietnam."

Indeed, he charged, "[Americans] are more guilty than any other body of
violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones,
harassment interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the
bombings,
the torture of prisoners - all accepted policy by many units in South
Vietnam."

Did these things really happen the way John Kerry said they did -
routinely, as a matter of national policy?

In Oliver Stone movies, maybe.

Yes, some American soldiers committed atrocities. (Though even those
crimes
paled in comparison to those repeatedly perpetrated by the Vietcong, as
an
integral part of a decades-long terror campaign meant to coerce South
Vietnamese support for the Communist side.)

But even as harsh a critic of U.S. policy as Daniel Ellsberg, the man
who
leaked the Pentagon (news - web sites) Papers, has said that the men
involved in the war's most notorious event, the My Lai massacre, knew
that
the killing there was "out of the ordinary. That is why [the soldiers]
tried to hide the event."

But that's not what John Kerry told the Senate.

Kerry agreed with Jane Fonda, who declared - during a protest at which
Kerry was the featured speaker - that "My Lai was not an isolated
incident
but rather a way of life for many of our military."

Kerry, to be entirely fair, didn't actually fashion his charges from
whole
cloth.

He took them from accounts included in the "Winter Soldier
Investigation,"
a fabrication purportedly based on testimony from, in Kerry's words,
"over
150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans."

That was odious nonsense.

"Winter Soldier" was, in fact, a set-up organized by a JFK-conspiracy
theorist, the fabulist Mark Lane.

And it was quickly exposed as a lie by journalists James Reston and
Neil
Sheehan - themselves harsh critics of U.S. policy - who discovered that
many of its supposed eyewitnesses never even served in Vietnam.

To date, John Kerry has never disavowed the Winter Soldier
Investigation -
or apologized for his role in propagating its notorious falsehoods.

Kerry has tried to explain away his slanderous charges by suggesting
they
were spontaneous - prompted by the heat of his anger over the war.

But it is now known that Kerry's speech was in fact carefully crafted
by
Adam Walinsky, a one-time Robert Kennedy aide and speechwriter - who
also
coached Kerry in how to deliver it for maximum emotional impact.

That is, for utmost political effect.

John Kerry, you see, had carefully planned a political career - and
decided
to use the war as his signature issue.

The year before he appeared before Congress, he'd entered a
congressional
race in Massachusetts. And he would exploit his sudden notoriety to
move up
the electoral ladder until he reached the Senate in 1985.

There are many ironies in Kerry's career, not the least of which being
the
fact that he's now running for president as the champion of the very
same
warriors he so viciously slandered 33 years ago.

Sen. Kerry can't bring himself to apologize for calling the men he
purports
to represent war criminals.

But he doesn't hesitate to hit them up for money.

"Most Americans are not familiar with John Kerry's Vietnam record,"
reads a
current campaign solicitation that complains about "the Bush smear
campaign
in the press."

"Help us fight back by contributing [money]. And if you're a veteran .
. .
join Veterans for Kerry right now."

Not so fast.

As Mackubin Thomas Owens wrote in National Review, "What Kerry did
after
leaving the Navy constituted a breach of trust with his fellow veterans
-
because, to protest the war, he cast aspersions upon their conduct."

Insists Owens: "He should apologize."

Indeed he should.
 

Eddie Haskell

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The greatest irony is Kerry. I don't think so. The greatest irony is a moron who intentionally ducked the fighting and now criticizing a man who actually fought in the war.

Bush is the draft dodger. This murderer is now sending others to die for trumpted up reasons. He's done it twice. First ducking the fighting in Viet Nam (you see Kerry wasn't the only one with policitcal aspirations). Second, sending kids to get killed while he jokes about weapons of mass destruction in the oval office.

That is the ultimate irony.

By the way. Whats wrong with the truth about Viet Nam. It was a bad war, like this one is, and Americans did commit atrocities. If I were Kerry, I wouldn't have backed off those words he said in the 70's. This scumbag in DC should be in jail.

Eddie
 

TossingSalads

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He fought and served in VietNam. Therefore he earned the right to criticize that fiasco. Until very recently the whole nation was pretty much in agreement that Vietnam was a mistake, that 58,000 American Boys like Kerry got killed in a place most called hell, fighting for all the wrong reasons. Why the change of heart?
 

shamrock

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chopstick-I have lived in Massachusetts my entire life, and because I myself am disabled, I've had the opportunities & privilege to work with many many disabled veterans throughout the State at various functions concerning a array of things. I've met Senator Kerry on more than one occasion, and have with my own eyes seen how VIETNAM VETERANS react and relate to him. The answer is extremely positively. Does this mean every Vietnam veteran agrees with his views? Of course not.

But I have personally seen the Senator around thousands of veterans in the 18 years that I have been injured & working on disabled rights (public access, transportation etc. etc.) around the State at various conventions, hospitals, rallies, and his reception is always overwhelmingly positive. I have seen what the Senator has done & how he has tirelessly worked for VIETNAM POW & MIA. personally the New York Post is a complete rag I wouldn't even wipe my ass with, I wouldn't take what some ass and a column with a agenda has as gospel. The problem with todays media is someone with a agenda and any pencil can go extremely far in swaying public opinion & misrepresentation of the truth quite easily. Seek out some combat or disabled for life veterans from Vietnam & see what they say about Senator Kerry. Take time & write a Family of any POW or MIa and ask if they appreciate Senator Kerry numerous efforts & work throughout Vietnam & Cambodia regarding returning of MIa & POW remains.

The truth is no other American politician has gone further for Vietnam veterans except Senator McCain. Matter of fact do some research and you will see McCain himself has tremendous respect and nothing but positive things to say regarding Senator Kerry. My attitude would be simply if McCain is in the opposite party in a truly partisan America we live in, and he has nothing to say negatively about Kerry why should you or some idiot with a pen for the New York Post. If Kerry is ok in McCain s Book, I imagine he should pass in ours no?

Frankly I'm not any drum beater for Senator Kerry, believe me there is plenty of reasons to criticize him and to not like him. Truthfully I'm not sure he would be presidential material, few are, in is undoubtedly a monumental task. Then again I'm not sure he could do much worse than presently.

One thing I do know is he doesn't deserve to be attacked regarding Vietnam, especially people and writers with nothing more than a agenda. The Senator has worked long and over a time in the background when anything said about Vietnam wasn't very popular. Long before this presidential campaign, Kerry was working in Vietnam & Cambodia regarding POW & MIA, when several U.S. politicians would run the other way.

Shamrock
 

Eddie Haskell

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Shamrock:

That is probably the most well written, unbiased post I have ever read in three years on this board. Be prepared for our "compassionate conservative" friends to lead an attack on your information.

I'm going to bookmark this thread and give it the occasional bump so it can be read and re-read. Very nice post. By the way, I think a Kerry/McCain ticket would be unbeatable. I would vote often for that combo.

Ed
 
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rrc

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Shamrock...very well thought out and well written thread.

Eddie....see how points can be presented in evenhanded manner without getting hysterical?? There is even a small chance more than 3 people might listen to what you have to say.
 

ferdville

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Eddie - While not a big fan of Bush myself, can't recall you ever using the words "draft dodger" when talking about your idol, William Jefferson Clinton. Was Bush a draft dodger? Not in the real sense of the word, but in all honesty he probably was. And Clinton - same category as Bush.
 

Chopsticks

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shamrock

shamrock

Great write up man...Personally, my opinions on politicians is straight lined for most parities...They come in with good intentions, but are corrupted one way or another by the system...I had received this article through an email and thought it was a good read and thought I would share it with the group...Since being Vietnamese, this article meant a little more to me than others...Take care
 

Eddie Haskell

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RRC:

All my posts are like Shamrocks. Actually, I taught him everything he knows.

Ferdie: Long time do disagree with. However, on this one, I agree with you. I didn' t have to call Uncle Bill a draft dodger. Everyone else on these boards was. But, for what it is worth, I agree that he ducked the war.

Difference between Clinton and Bush is that Bush has been waiving these flags of patriotism and nationalism when he was nothing but a coward whose actions were completely designed to avoid going to Viet Nam.

I think many in the service looked at Clinton with a suspicious eye as commander in chief. Bush should be looked at with just as suspicious of an eye. However, now with all the Bush propoganda, you know the flight jacket on the aircraft carrier, etc, you would have thought this guy was Sgt. York.

He's spinning his draft dodging into political gain. Hypocrite.

Ed
 

djv

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AS I said to DTB in another thread. We believe in the rules. However with what happen to our guys in Korea and Nam when captured or tortured out in the skunk. Well a eye for a eye we should not forget. Problem is because we do it 4 or 5 times out of a hundred it gets blowen up big time. Yes some of this went down. To F?????? bad. Maybe we should start to act all the time as the nuts of the world do. They may not want to come near us.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Shamrock How many vetern org do ypu belong to?? You might want to get out of MA for a week or 2 and see what goes on in real world. I can quarantee most vets from all wars hate Kerry and rightfully so. How many links do you want from vet organizations??
here the tip of iceburg.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kerry stopped the Vietnam Human Rights Act (HR2833) from coming to a vote in the Senate

The Washington Times
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
December 6, 2002

John Kerry's war record

As Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, considers a bid for the White House, Americans should know a few things about him that he might prefer go unmentioned ? and I don't mean his $75 haircuts.

When Mr. Kerry pontificated at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial on Veterans Day, a group of veterans turned their backs on him and walked away. They remembered Mr. Kerry as the anti-war activist who testified before Congress during the war, accusing veterans of being war criminals. The dust jacket of Mr. Kerry's pro-Hanoi book, "The New Soldier," features a photograph of his ragged band of radicals mocking the U.S. Marine Corps Memorial, which depicts the flag-raising on Iwo Jima, with an upside-down American flag.

Retired Gen. George S. Patton III charged that Mr. Kerry's actions as an anti-war activist had "given aid and comfort to the enemy," as had the actions of Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda. Also, Mr. Kerry lied when he threw what he claimed were his war medals over the White House fence; he later admitted they weren't his. Now they are displayed on his office wall.

Long after he changed sides in congressional hearings, Mr. Kerry lobbied for renewed trade relations with Hanoi. At the same time, his cousin C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam ? an odd coincidence.

As noted in the Inside Politics column of Nov. 14 (Nation), historian Douglas Brinkley is writing Mr. Kerry's biography. Hopefully, he'll include the senator's latest ignominious feat: preventing the Vietnam Human Rights Act (HR2833) from coming to a vote in the Senate, claiming human rights would deteriorate as a result. His actions sent a clear signal to Hanoi that Congress cares little about the human rights for which so many Americans fought and died.

The State Department ranked Vietnam among the 10 regimes worldwide least tolerant of religious freedom. Recently, 354 churches of the Montagnards, a Christian ethnic minority, were forcibly disbanded, and by mid-October, more than 50 Christian pastors and elders had been arrested in Dak Lak province alone. On Oct. 29, the secret police executed three Montagnards by lethal injection simply for protesting religious repression. The communists are conducting a pogrom against the Montagnards, forcing Christians to drink a mixture of goat's blood and alcohol and renounce Christianity.

Thousands have been killed or imprisoned or have just "disappeared." The Montagnards lost one-half of their adult male population fighting for the United States, and without them, there might be thousands more American names on that somber black granite wall at the Vietnam memorial.

As Mr. Kerry contemplates a run for the presidency, people must remember that he has fought harder for Hanoi as an anti-war activist and a senator than he did against the Vietnamese communists while serving in the Navy in Vietnam.
MICHAEL BENGE
Foreign Service officer and former Vietnam POW (1968 to 1973
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your suppositions follow Eddies analysis of being in military (National Guard)as being same as dodging draft.

You might want to relay that fact to members of the guard Eddie considering their casualties to date in Iraq are about 3/1 to the navy.

--if you want the lowdown of what happened in the bush in viet nam you might ask someone who been there and it sure as hell wasn't your navy man Kerry who was chosen by the liberals to relay to head congressional commitee to tell of all the atrocities he had "heard about" what a fuking joke.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Someone may want to enlighten Wayne as he appears to be much too young to remember (from his cute little ad for more premiums) that the ONLY REASON PEOPLE JOINED THE GUARD IN THE 60'S WAS TO AVOID VIET NAM. Your president, Mr. Patriotism himself, avoided the real fighting. Plain, simple and true.

Then again, you have a major problem with the truth.

The irony is all of these attacks against Kerry is that you right wing zealots somehow are able to distinguish against our fighting boys in Iraq and Kerry fighting in Viet Nam. Kerry is a lying coward yet Tillman is a hero.

Why don't you deify Kerry cause he risked his life when apparently his family was worth millions and he could have ducked the war by joining the ............... dare I say............. National Guard.

It amazes me how some of you spin things to fit your own views. Answer this simple question nazi's, who risked there life more in the 60's Kerry or Bush. If you say Bush, I'm not speaking of doing peyote or mescaline.

Again, like your president, you are a bunch of hypocrites.

Ed

Ed
 
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ocelot

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Ed,

You know uncomfortable facts never have mattered to knee-jerk Bushists? It doesn't matter if the Republicans do EVERYTHING that Democrats are abused for to the 10th degree...it'll somehow be invisible or "different" when a Republican does it.

Clinton is attacked for marijuana use - nothing ever said about Georgie's COCAINE use or alcohol abuse. Not to mention Rush's little pain-killer activities or Governor Jeb Bush's daughter's drug problems or the Bush girls wild drinking exhibitions.

Then we had Newt talking the "Family Values" crap while ducking child support for his own kids. It would be funny if it weren't so sad and pathetic.

I expect the right-wing Limbaugh types to soon begin the fabricated attacks on Kerry's wife because she's not at the local Protestant church baking cakes and cookies and might actually have positions on substantive issues.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I think with Bushes money he could have went in any branch and avoided Viet Nam but I will grant you that was one way to avoid viet nam but I would not call him a draft dodger any more than anyoneone else that volunteered for arm forces as he was in military nor would I personally call someone with any legitamate deferment a draft dodger--but you and your consciencious objector status Michael Moore can continue on your rants about draft dodgers deserters ect. One has to consider the source;)
 

StevieD

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Of course he dodged the draft! That is why he depended on his father's money and influence to get him into the guard in the first place. It is not like that was not a common thing back then. Many people went to school or did whatever they could to avoid the draft. A couple of things make what Bush did is very disturbing. First, not only did he avoid the the draft but he did so while supporting the war! Say what you want about Clinton and Moore and others who ducked the draft at least they didn't believe in the war. Bush said he supported his countries position! That makes him a real Chickenhawk. Not only that but he proves he doesn't know a bad war when he sees one!
 

shamrock

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dogs-I never said I was a Vietnam veteran or belong to any particular veterans organization. What I did do was spend 16 months in a VA HOSPITAL, following my accident in 85'. Because their specialty was cervical spinal cord injuries I spent basically a year and a half there. In that time I met, talked and became friends with hundreds of Vietnam veterans and your wrong, most speak favorably of Senator Kerry. I also said I have personally witnessed hundreds if not thousands react favorably to the Senator throughout the State at different functions regarding DISABLED RIGHTS (public access, transportation, etc.). And again with my own eyes I have seen the overwhelming majority of these veterans shake Kerry s hand with smiles on their faces.

Being that Vietnam was probably the most divisional period of our countries history I am quite sure you can find some veterans that don't agree or care for Senator Kerry. Does that surprise you?? Again it is probably the most polarized issue of our lives. Almost unanimously the veterans I have spoken with, without hesitation agree the whole mess was a horrible mistake they wished they had never been involved with. Again I'm sure you can find those who speak openly against the Senator s actions following the war, doesn't surprise me! I'll stand on my eye witness that many either forgive him for his statements when he was in his youth, or possibly recognize his work throughout the 70' s, 80' s until present recovering POW & MIa remains vastly outweighs his earlier actions. As I said earlier if Senator McCain considers Kerry a close friend and has nothing negative to say regarding him or his work why should you?

I have no idea what your article above regarding "Vietnam Human rights act" has anything to do with my previous statements regarding what Senator Kerry has done for American POW & MIa?? How do those subjects intertwine??

Lastly are you ignorant enough to actually believe war atrocities were not committed in Vietnam? Your probably one of those guys that doesn't believe there was a drug problem over there either. Dogs, once again I've spent a lot of hours talking with Vietnam veterans at the West Roxbury V A regarding their addiction s to heroin and everything else. Any clue why those addictions transpired? Most tell me because they couldn't deal or live with the shit they saw or were going through. If you truly doubt Americans don't commit war crimes pick up your newspaper today or flip on the news because its happening presently in Iraq. If you believe it happens and should be swept under the carpet and silenced, then your a different person than I. To me that makes us no better than the animals that tortured & abused American soldiers bodies earlier in Iraq or previously in Somalia. To me 2 wrongs don't make anything right. war is undoubtedly a ugly scenario, however people need to be responsible for their actions and abusing & torture of unarmed prisoners is not ethical Humane behavior and shouldn't be condoned.


Shamrock

ps your comparing air National guard with Iraqi war casualties concerning National Gard being 3/1 to navy is completely ridiculous. Vietnam had no air Force, hence air national guard casualties were probably 0. Majority of Force in Iraq presently is national guard & Iraq has no Navy. Hence U.S. Naval casualties would obviously be minimal presently.
 

djv

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At the beginning of the Nam war no one was asked there opinion.
About the middle 1968 polls were about split. By 71/72 it was 70/30 against. By the time we left it was hated by just about all. And so many of our guys did not get the respect they had coming. It was the first T V war. The country grew sick of seeing the pitcures every night. It was a no win action. Well it could have been but we would have had to kill just about every person up north. And at what cost to us. Another 10000. We will never no. But a few more months like what we just had in Iraq. The chit will fly much more here then it is right now.
 
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