How ironic....

dr. freeze

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ozball said:
Freeze,

as physicians, you and I would be seen as privileged in any society...and if riots like are happening in Iraq were to break out here or in your home town...guess who's house gets raided...lots of resentment against the privileged...

How would you feel about a little looting and anarchy then?

ozball

well i probably wouldnt want a war against my country right now either but i want a war against Iraq...

you just stated an absurd statement ignoring context...

the looting and anarchy is going to be temporary...nothing to get all worked up about....its just another thing that we knew would happen but is yet another tool to criticize

all the utopians like to nitpick at everything wrong in our country and now everywhere else...completely unrealistic...
 

dr. freeze

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Hoops said:


Not saying I 'know', but on what basis are you saying that? Are you there? Even Rumsfield stated things are 'a bit chaotic' right now.

from on the scene reporters....rather than the armchair anchors who have been proclaiming gloom and doom from the start
 

kosar

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Pretty much all true, yyz. One thing I would say, though, is that you don't need to live something 24 hrs a day to believe in it or care about it. Shit, i'll bet most nuns take a few minutes out of their day or night or both to rip one off.

I'm rubbing my crystal ball (well, rubbing something) and I see much compassion for the repressed residents of Syria in the near future. I can't say exactly when, though. They'll tell us when to start caring about them.
 

yyz

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dr. freeze said:
YYZ then thats you....i konw lots of people who give $$ supporting missionaries and causes all over the world....

you negativists speak for yourselves...not for all of America please


Of course it doesn't speak for all of America. If it did, threads like this, and the tiresome debates that ensue, would not exist. But you are wrong if you think I am in the minority, here. It's great that the socialites you hob-knob with can toss a coin in society's tin cup now and again. You want to do some good? Go donate blood ona regular basis. Do volunteer work with the underprivelaged in your community, or give 4 hours a week at the hospital. Writing a check to some faceless organization, and clearing your conscience for a few weeks, is a piss poor way to judge your standing on the social ladder.

If you and your country club pals give a shit about these people in two years, let me know. I'll put my money on the chance that you will have some new cause, 10 times over, to rally around.

Next time you are out and about, take a look around you......

Tell me if you see a nation of people concerned over human rights in another land, or people pissed because the 'other line at the store' is moving faster. Tell me how many people you see taking up the plight of thse folks, as opposed to those making plans for the weekend on the cell phone.

People don't care, and it aint just me, brother. More power to you if you do.

I gotta go......Seinfeld is on.
 

Hoops

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dr. freeze said:

from on the scene reporters....rather than the armchair anchors who have been proclaiming gloom and doom from the start

Yep, sounds like the looting and such isn't much of a problem. Let's just leave it like it is.


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military said on Friday it would not serve as a police force in Iraq (news - web sites), but some analysts said that was the role American troops must assume to stabilize the chaotic country for months and perhaps years.

The swift collapse of President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s rule after the U.S.-led invasion has left the impoverished country ravaged by looting and lawlessness.

Analysts said although U.S. soldiers and Marines were not trained to serve as a police force to keep order in a foreign land, by necessity they must do just that to provide security in the face of anarchy.

They said the continuing presence of paramilitary fighters still loyal to Saddam Hussein further complicated an already tough chore.

"As much as U.S. military forces hate to be drawn into policing and providing for public order, absent an international peacekeeping force that is ready to be deployed, we're it," said Michele Flournoy, an analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"The question is whether we're smart enough to step into the breach," added Flournoy, a former Pentagon (news - web sites) official.

Looting erupted in shops, government buildings and hospitals in Baghdad and other cities as Saddam's government lost control of power. A prominent cleric hacked to death by a mob in a Shiite shrine in Najaf. U.S. troops have been the target of suicide bombings.

"Iraq had lived under a repressive dictatorship for so long that many of the stabilizing mechanisms of a civil society are gone. That means that peace will have to be kept at the tip of a gun barrel for some time," said analyst Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute.

Flournoy said U.S. troops would have to serve in a police role until the United States could reorganize and redeploy Iraqi police and armed forces manned by people not tainted by Saddam's government. Flournoy said local police forces could be put in place in weeks or months in some parts of southern and northern Iraq less aligned with Saddam.

"But the bulk of the security task will stay in U.S. hands until those institutions can be rebuilt, and that's a three- to five-year process," Flournoy said.

Retired U.S. Army Gen. William Nash, an analyst with the Council on Foreign Relations, estimated that the development of new local police forces would take six months to a year.

'CONDITIONS OF STABILITY'

During a U.S. Central Command briefing in Qatar, Army Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said on Friday American troops would take some steps but would not become the police on the beat. Some looting has taken place as U.S. troops stood idly by.

"At no point do we see really becoming a police force," Brooks said. "We seek to create conditions of stability where people can walk the streets safely without looting, without violence, without exploding vehicles. ... In some cases it may require shooting machine guns in downtown."

The U.S. military declined to play the role of police after the Taliban rulers were toppled in Afghanistan (news - web sites), and the United States has refused to provide peacekeepers for the military stabilization force there.

U.S. officers in Baghdad on Friday discussed how to impose a curfew and extend daylight patrols to night hours. Marine Lt. Col. Jim Chartier, who commands a tank battalion in Baghdad, admitted that "we are a little bit out of our comfort zone."

That discomfort may be for a good reason, analysts said.



"The U.S. military is decidedly not a police force. That is not what we train our soldiers to do. We train them to fight and win wars. That's what they're good at," said Charles Pena, an analyst at the Cato Institute.

Pena said the policing task was made even more difficult by the fact U.S. troops may not speak the language or understand local culture and customs.

British troops may be better suited for the job, he added.

"The British have a ton of experience dealing with Northern Ireland and having to deal with the IRA constantly harassing them but having to police Belfast and protect the citizenry. So if you had to pick inside the coalition who is better for police activity, it would be the British," Pena said.

Some commentators said the United States had too few troops on the ground in Iraq to provide comprehensive policing immediately, but noted that thousands more were due to enter from Kuwait.

The issue of how many troops are required to stabilize postwar Iraq has been touchy. Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki said several hundred thousand troops may be needed, which Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called too high.

The task of bringing order to postwar Iraq is complicated by the lingering presence of paramilitary fighters such as those in the Fedayeen Saddam forces, Thompson said.

"The challenge that is posed by paramilitaries is really the same as that posed by terrorists or guerrillas. They are indistinguishable from noncombatants. And in fact they count on that quality to protect themselves," Thompson said.
 

AR182

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yyz,

You previously stated that "I can at least admit I don't really give a shit about this crisis, other than the fact that it will cost a lot of people their lives".

I agree with the premise that alot of people don't give a shit about the plight of people in another country.Maybe if these apathetic(is there such a word---lol ?) people knew someone who suffered in concentration camps during ww2 or suffered in kosovo their opinions about the plight of the iraqi people would change.Personally this bothers me, big time, but that is not the reason why I support this war.My fear is what saddam could have done with wmd & his support of terrorism.And eventhough saddam may not have been involved with 9/11, I believe he or someone in his gov't. have dealt with alqaeda.And even if you don't believe that any one in saddam's regime had direct contact with alqaeda, he or someone in his regime has had direct contact with other terrorists groups.And there is definately different degrees of separation between terrorists & rogue states such as iraq, iran, syria, etc.
If you don't believe this war can affect us here in the US, then I suggest you think about what happened in NY, Wash,& Pa.

What Seinfeld show did you catch?
 

yyz

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AR,

Unfortunately, we are, as a society, pretty far removed from 911 already, too.

We got the initial horror and shock, and then it was back to business as usual for those not directly affected by that day. It took about three weeks. (And no.......we were not ALL directly affected, for those of you whom might chime in.)

We are a selfish lot, and that's the end of that.
 

dr. freeze

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if Americans are so aweful, then name a country in the Middle East or for that matter anywhere in the world that does more humanitarian work than we do....
 

djv

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We were number three last two years in giving. Sweden and Finland led the way. We just beat out Switzerland for 3rd. Now depending whos in office, and it does matter. We have been knowen as very compassionate for other countries causes. You will find when we have hawks as our leaders people see us way down that list. No matter good or bad reason. You know when you look at last few places we did humanitarian work. It was done with power.
 

Blitz

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What makes me laugh, is the same people that were screaming for the US to give the UN weapons inspectors another 6 months or more to find WMD, are the same people asking why havn't we found any WMD yet.(when we have only been there for 3 weeks and have been fighting a war and not exactly going door to door searching)
 

ferdville

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If Mohammed Abboud says it is anarchy - that is good enough for me! Let's be serious about this, did you think it would be any different? I have lived through two LA riots and they don't look much different from this, though less people are dying in Iraq than perished in the streets of LA! Anarchy is a little strong - predictable would be better. I think we went to Iraq to eliminate the current regime and their WMD. Liberating the people was a byproduct of that - but not the real reason. God help us if it WAS the real reason because I doubt that the Iraquis determination of freedom will not match line by line to what we might expect. I am happy that we eliminated Saddam. Will someone just as bad replace him? I doubt it, but I wouldn't be too surprised. We are transferring our own culture to the Iraquis as if that is what they want. I don't believe that is what they had in mind. Despite the fact that I have been considered a war monger or Bush lover by many here, I think we are very far from a peaceful solution to the Iraqui government dilemma. Yes, I agree that Saddam needed to be eliminated. But my guess is that our troubles are far from done here or anywhere else in the Middle East. Nothing would make me happier than being wrong.
 

ChrryBlstr

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ferdville:

many excellent points that i definitely agree with....and unfortunately....you are most likely correct in your assessment....and only time will tell....what results all this madness will actually bear!!!


:)
 

djv

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Ferdville is funny you mention LA riots. Just shows sometimes we dont have to leave home to find trouble. I some times wonder when we cant fix things here. Why the hell we think we can do it some other country.
 

ssd

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Kosar:
You mentioned that (synapsis) most Americans right now care more about the plight of the Iraqi citizen than our own *minor* problems here at home. In the past 50 years, we have probably spent 5 - 6 trillion dollars supporting social reform programs (ie. welfare) and they are not working. Yet, we continue to fund them with American tax-payer dollars. Why do I continue to bust my ass to pay for people who don't appreciate it? At least for an amount of time, yet to be determined, the Iraqi citizens appreciate something that I helped pay for. More than I get out of the Americans on social programs.
 

ferdville

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Kosar and SSD you both have good points. It boggles the mind to think of the amount of money we send (give) to foreign countries for a myriad of reason. However, we (taxpayers) have been subsidizing a substantial portion of American citizens for years through the hundreds if not thousands of social programs we have made available. Have they made a difference - it beats me!
 

djv

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They wont all work because the design is not always the best. And our congress is just two good at adding pork to programs. The right and left are both very good at it. But anything that helps anyone here at home I will spend my tax dollar on. Sorry I dont believe we need to be policeman of the world. Hell look at one of our biggest soical programs over last 40 years and you will fine trillions. We call it aid to Israel. Once again I dont argue right or wrong just point out that fact. Anyone have aguess at what it cost to keep our soldiers in Germany,S Korea last 40 years. Not sure why any are in Germany anymore. Cold war been over 12 years.
 
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