Iraq rejects US probe clearing troops of killings

AR182

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i wonder if the new iraqi gov't. will also conduct their own probe concerning the terrorists killing civilians...


Sat 3 Jun 2006 6:24 AM ET
By Mariam Karouny and Fredrik Dahl

BAGHDAD, June 3 (Reuters) - Iraq vowed on Saturday to press on with its own probe into the deaths of civilians in a U.S. raid on the town of Ishaqi, rejecting the U.S. military's exoneration of its forces.

Adnan al-Kazimi, an aide to Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, said the government would also demand an apology from the United States and compensation for the victims in several cases, including the alleged massacre in the town of Haditha last year.

"We have from more than one source that the Ishaqi killings were carried out under questionable circumstances. More than one child was killed. This report was not fair for the Iraqi people and the children who were killed," he told Reuters.

The U.S. military had issued a statement about Ishaqi saying allegations that U.S. troops "executed a family ... and then hid the alleged crimes by directing an air strike, are absolutely false".

It said troops had been fired on as they raided a house to arrest an al Qaeda suspect. They returned fire and called in air support, which destroyed the building, killing one militant and resulting in "up to nine collateral deaths".

The military had previously said one guerrilla, two women and a child were killed in the March 15 raid in Ishaqi, 60 miles (100 km) north of Baghdad.

It has repeatedly pledged to punish any soldier found guilty of atrocities in Iraq, but the decision to clear the troops in Ishaqi fuelled deep mistrust among ordinary Iraqis three years after the U.S.-led invasion to oust Saddam Hussein.

Police in Ishaqi say five children, four women and two men were shot in the head, and that the bodies, with hands bound, were dumped in one room before the house was blown up.

WIDESPREAD SUSPICION

Maliki, who took office two weeks ago at the helm of a U.S- backed national unity government, is battling a widespread public perception that U.S. troops can shoot and kill with impunity and Iraqi leaders are too weak to do anything about it.

"Ishaqi is just another reason why we shouldn't trust the Americans," said Abdullah Hussein, an engineer in Baghdad.

"First they lied about the weapons of mass destruction, then there was the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal and now it's clear to the world they were guilty in Haditha," he told Reuters.

A tribal leader in Ishaqi said it was clear that U.S. forces were above the law in Iraq.

"We expect the American soldiers to commit any crime to control this country," added Sarhan Jasim, 55.

Human Rights Minister Wijdan Michael said her ministry would send a fact-finding commission to Ishaqi in the next few days.

The incident was one of a handful involving civilian deaths being investigated by the U.S. military, including the deaths of two dozen civilians in the town of Haditha on Nov. 19.

U.S. officials say murder charges may be brought against Marines after the probe into Haditha, which some commentators are comparing to the 1968 My Lai massacre in Vietnam.

Maliki this week condemned the suspected massacre in Haditha as a "terrible crime" and demanded that the United States hand over the files on the investigation.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and the top U.S. commander in Iraq, General George Casey, met Maliki in Baghdad on Friday and promised to give him all the evidence and materials from the Haditha probe.

In the statement about Ishaqi, Major General William Caldwell, the U.S. military spokesman, said the investigation showed that the ground commander "operated in accordance with the rules of engagement governing our combat forces in Iraq."

One man in the town, 40-year-old Obeid Kamil, said on Friday that U.S. soldiers had a "licence to kill" Iraqi civilians.

"Their action is always to open fire and kill people, which is proof that they are afraid," he said.
 

kosar

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The Prime Minister really has no choice but to respond like this. If he sits back and does nothing, he is at real risk of losing whatever little control and cohesion of the government and country itself that he has. The sectarian violence is out of control as it is and that is with our 150k troops there.

They have a severe risk of a civil war once we leave and are right on the border as it is. Dealing with these allegations really leaves him in an impossible situation.

And hopefully people think it through before i'm accused of 'defending the evil Iraqi.'

People continue to refuse to try to look at the other side of the coin. That is why we're in the position that we're in over there. That's why we're even there at all. We still don't get it.

We continue to try to compare our mores and ethics to a region that is stuck in the stone age.

On top of that, we are trying to impose a peaceful democracy on a country that has a 70% population aligned with the same sect as the nuts that run Iran.

And people can blame the media all they want, but they have nothing to do with any of it.

I love it! The 'if we leave and if we fail, then it's the medias fault' stuff is already dribbling out. Already lining up excuses while carefully avoiding placing any responsibility with the people that made the decision to go, made all the decisions on how to prosecute the war and ultimately will decide when we leave. Man, that just sounds ridiculous.

On one hand we hear ad nauseum how Bush doesn't make decisions based on polls, voting climate or on anything but conviction.

Now we're to believe that the media will get him to bring the troops home early and that the media is responsible for the clusterf*ck in the first place. That's hilarious.

The truth is that they got a free pass before, during and months after the invasion. They were cheerleaders with NOBODY asking questions. NONE!

Even today, for the most part, they get a free pass. Oh, you get the occasional blasting from staunch conservatives like Buckley, Reese, Buchanan and of course from dozens of prominent generals.

But generally speaking the MSM continues to tread lightly on a day to day basis. For every 231 days on NYT front page Abu Ghraib-type thing, there are about 20 other angles and valid criticisms that are ignored.

On this Haditha thing that some are squealing about, let's look at the timeline and maybe someone can show how the evil MSM ran with it.

Alleged incident happens in 11/05.

Rights group immediately start investigation. Rights group ignored by all until:

Time Magazine takes an interest.

Publish story on 3/19/06.

President FINALLY informed in april 06. That's how little waves Time's story created. None.

Ignored still by all except for the Marines who are now compelled to finally do a proper inverstigation. They had done a previous one but quickly and quietly dismissed it.

No mention from the MSM until late May.

And yeah, if true, the story deserves plenty of press. It's not a feeding frenzy *yet*, but if they find this is true and there was a massive military cover-up, all hell will break loose.
 

smurphy

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kosar said:
And people can blame the media all they want, but they have nothing to do with any of it.
But it's so much more fun and pointless to blame the media.
 

kosar

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smurphy said:
But it's so much more fun and pointless to blame the media.

It's certainly a hell of a lot easier than actually thinking it through and running the risk of coming to the conclusion that the prosecuters of the war f*cked it up from beginning to end. The truth is inexcapable unless you put your head in the sand and blame the media. Or cover your ears and say 'meeeedia', 'meeeedia' until the discussion has ended.

I also love the pre-emptive strikes on the media, blaming them for the expected future civil war. It couldn't be the Middle Eastern history, culture and religion that all the troops in the world could never change. Nah, no way. What a joke!

I can see it. We're in 2008, W has pulled all the troops and massive civil war ensues. Can you imagine the posts by wayne and weasel, whining that's it's all because of the media. Might as well go with what got you 'there', I guess :)
 

AR182

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very good post, kosar...

agree with some & disagree with some of what you say...

hopefully i'll have time to post everything (waiting for wife to go out)....

no doubt it's a very tough situation....

i agree that this is the only way that the prime minister must act if he is to have some sort of credibilty among his people....

we definitely can't pull out now...we must see this through....i'm heartened by what retired general mccaffrey (sp?)(not a bush supporter), who just came back from iraq...he feels that we will pull this off if we stay the course...hopefully he's right...

for the past few weeks i have been reading up on & listening to ex-military people who were present at the meetings that took place before the invasion...i have posted this before but think it applies to this post....

some of the generals who were present estimated that a little less than 400,000 soldiers were needed to pull this thing off correctly....colin powell was also present at these meetings...when we were about to be involved in the first gulf war, powell came up with the "powell doctrine" that basically said that any battle that we would become involved in we must overwhelm the enemy......he reminded rumsfeld about this.....

basically rumsfeld refused to listen to these military men & he had in mind to streamline our military...to make it more mobile....so we went in with less than 200,000.....

now after reading what's happened & what is happening in iraq i am now convinced that if rumsfeld would have listened to the military men we wouldn't be having the problems that are taking place now.... ie..more soldiers would mean less burnout for the present soldiers, more soldiers would mean that less of the enemy would have been able to flee & come back later to fight...

so i put most of the blame for what's happening on rumsfeld & bush.....i am convinced that rumsfeld should go & get a different prespective in there....colin powell would be an obvious & good choice to succeed rumsfeld but doubt that he would take it...

let's be honest... most of the mainstream media is anti-bush & leans to the democratic party...it's very obvious...all anybody had to do was listen to the publisher of the ny times give the commencement exercise at a college this past week to see how obvious it is.....

i believe because of their hatred of bush they will print more stories of bad things in iraq than good things in iraq...it's the samething that happened in viet nam....

the consequences that are taking place in iraq is not the media's fault but they can sway public opinion & i think they have....

have to run...
 

shamrock

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don't you guys think the military and actually the country would look better if these incidents were exposed in a much timely manner as opposed to trying to keep everything secretly "underwraps". To me the way we continually learn of these incidents, (months later through media leaks), almost categoricaly insinuates guilt, even if there is none.

To me these so called incidents of war would look so much more above the board, if the military reported on them in a timely manner, not looking as if they are trying to pull something over on everyone.

I was listening to a staff sergeant just home from Iraq a couple days ago. The kid was 22, although trained and drilled, and probably more mature than most of us at that age, Jesus Christ, chronologicaly the kid was 22 and in charge of a unit in Iraq.

People don't realize over one million Americans has served over in the middle East in some form during this conflict, 99.9 have done so honorably bravely and without incident. But in war shit happens, its understandable, why try to hide everything?

A young guy fighting for his life every day, taking shots from cowardice snipers and bombers in this complete Hell hole, eyewitness one of his brothers get blown into pieces by a IED, loses his head and let's some rounds fly into what could be*innocent civilians, is this impossible to believe? Not to me, somehow it almost seems normal, certainly not normal to the rule, but certainly as the exception. I would wager under these situations and demographics a certain percentage is bound to lose it.

Does that mean there should be no repercussions? Of course not. But I certainly do understand how it could happen. Why try to cover it up?
 

smurphy

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why oh why.......

does ar write like weasel now......

?????........

:sadwave: .......
 

shamrock

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AR- I have as much respect for you as any poster on this board. It seems as though even you have come to agree that the planning and execution of this war wars grossly miss handled, and hastily put into action.

Question is who should pay now? Other than the young kids needlessly giving their lives away walking around like targets in a shooting Gallery. Every incompetent person around Bush has been fired or resigned, Scottie, Scooter, all of them.
Only ones left are rummy, the vp, and Bush.

I think Cheney & rummy are the guilty party in putting forth such a pathetic, grossly missmanaged plan, and therefore should be replaced.

I'm honestly not sure about Bush, I can't believe he had much to do with the planning & intricacies of the war. If anything I think he is guilty of ignoring numerous generals & tactical military experts, and possessing blind faith in these two war mongers. I agree we probably can't leave at this stage, however what a sad state 4 years into this and numerous American lives Lost to essentially begin planning again.
 

AR182

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shamrock said:
don't you guys think the military and actually the country would look better if these incidents were exposed in a much timely manner as opposed to trying to keep everything secretly "underwraps". To me the way we continually learn of these incidents, (months later through media leaks), almost categoricaly insinuates guilt, even if there is none.

To me these so called incidents of war would look so much more above the board, if the military reported on them in a timely manner, not looking as if they are trying to pull something over on everyone.

I was listening to a staff sergeant just home from Iraq a couple days ago. The kid was 22, although trained and drilled, and probably more mature than most of us at that age, Jesus Christ, chronologicaly the kid was 22 and in charge of a unit in Iraq.

People don't realize over one million Americans has served over in the middle East in some form during this conflict, 99.9 have done so honorably bravely and without incident. But in war shit happens, its understandable, why try to hide everything?

A young guy fighting for his life every day, taking shots from cowardice snipers and bombers in this complete Hell hole, eyewitness one of his brothers get blown into pieces by a IED, loses his head and let's some rounds fly into what could be*innocent civilians, is this impossible to believe? Not to me, somehow it almost seems normal, certainly not normal to the rule, but certainly as the exception. I would wager under these situations and demographics a certain percentage is bound to lose it.

Does that mean there should be no repercussions? Of course not. But I certainly do understand how it could happen. Why try to cover it up?


very good post & agree 100% with it.....

did anybody ever wonder why most of the iraqi people don't get themselves blown up by these ieds on the road ?.....

they're suppose to be hidden yet only the american soldiers are getting blown up...

i think the terrorists secretly inform the iraqi people about these ieds....

it makes me wonder what's going on there....
 

AR182

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smurphy said:
why oh why.......

does ar write like weasel now......

?????........

:sadwave: .......


i don't know when you will realize,murph that gw is a man who we should model our behavior after either in the real world & in the forum world.....

it's about time that you realize this & not fight it & come over to the good side....

and besides, as i said before it's easier to read this way then regular paragraphs....
 

AR182

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shamrock said:
AR- I have as much respect for you as any poster on this board. It seems as though even you have come to agree that the planning and execution of this war wars grossly miss handled, and hastily put into action.

Question is who should pay now? Other than the young kids needlessly giving their lives away walking around like targets in a shooting Gallery. Every incompetent person around Bush has been fired or resigned, Scottie, Scooter, all of them.
Only ones left are rummy, the vp, and Bush.

I think Cheney & rummy are the guilty party in putting forth such a pathetic, grossly missmanaged plan, and therefore should be replaced.

I'm honestly not sure about Bush, I can't believe he had much to do with the planning & intricacies of the war. If anything I think he is guilty of ignoring numerous generals & tactical military experts, and possessing blind faith in these two war mongers. I agree we probably can't leave at this stage, however what a sad state 4 years into this and numerous American lives Lost to essentially begin planning again.


thanks very much for the comment.....it's mutual..

i still believe the war was correct but as i wrote above it was short staffed...

i don't think it would be feasible for both cheney & rumsfeld to go...it would make this administration look very weak....so after what i have read i think rumsfeld should go.....

btw,imo the last few appointments that have been made by this administration have been very solid....so hopefully something positive for the american people can be accomplished by bush...

but bush seems to out to lunch on this immigration mess.....

hopefully he will wake up...
 

smurphy

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I TOTALLY DISAGREE ABOUT IT BEING EASIER TO READ. I THINK IT'S A JUMBLED MESS. I PREFER THE BOSTON JAMES STYLE TO THE CONSTANT ONE LINERS DOT DOT DOT. TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I DONT EVEN READ EVERYTHING WHEN IT'S WRITTEN LIKE THAT. NO FLOW, NO SENSE THAT I AM BEING PRESENTED WITH A PROFESSIONAL PRODUCT. IN SHORT, IT BLOWS. BUT I DIGRESS. ASIDE FROM THE STYLE, I FIND WHAT BOTH U AND WEASEL HAVE TO SAY FASCINATING. THAT'S WHY IT DISSAPOINTS ME SO MUCH WHEN A THOUSAND DOLLAR MESSAGE IS PRESENTED ON A TWO CENT PAPER PLATE. BUT IF THIS IS WHAT YOU PREFER, THEN IT SHALL BE. BEST OF LUCK TO THE BOTH YOU!
 

AR182

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smurphy said:
I TOTALLY DISAGREE ABOUT IT BEING EASIER TO READ. I THINK IT'S A JUMBLED MESS. I PREFER THE BOSTON JAMES STYLE TO THE CONSTANT ONE LINERS DOT DOT DOT. TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I DONT EVEN READ EVERYTHING WHEN IT'S WRITTEN LIKE THAT. NO FLOW, NO SENSE THAT I AM BEING PRESENTED WITH A PROFESSIONAL PRODUCT. IN SHORT, IT BLOWS. BUT I DIGRESS. ASIDE FROM THE STYLE, I FIND WHAT BOTH U AND WEASEL HAVE TO SAY FASCINATING. THAT'S WHY IT DISSAPOINTS ME SO MUCH WHEN A THOUSAND DOLLAR MESSAGE IS PRESENTED ON A TWO CENT PAPER PLATE. BUT IF THIS IS WHAT YOU PREFER, THEN IT SHALL BE. BEST OF LUCK TO THE BOTH YOU!


thank you murphy for understanding....

next week gw & i will have you over for dinner...
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I think your view on locals not being blown up is tainted AR I just don't think it makes the news--my reasoning is deaths of civilians-police and Iraqi militart FAR exceed those by U.S. troops.

and on the media---the only reason you did not see same from media and rights groups in Korean and other wars-- was you didn't have the media imbedded with troops.

---when you imbed entities that are against the war- their reporting will relect their opinions.
 
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djv

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The press should everyday report the disasters. But if a new hospital opens or a school they should tell us that to. After all it's costing us all big time for our needs here at home for there goodies they are getting.
 
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