Is there a gay wing to the republican party ?

smurphy

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Every Christian believes he is a sinner, that he falls short of what his ethics instruct him to be.

Pointing out Haggard is a hypocrite is thus to point out he is a Christian.

Non-believing liberals reject these (especially Evangelical Christian) notions and that's why they go crazy when a preacher gets caught, and even more crazy when his flock forgives him. They just don't get it. Don't have to believe to get it. They get it when it comes to understanding Mooslim's beliefs.

Also, Haggard "knows" what he did was wrong, and this infuriates liberals even more as they don't think any of these gay behaviors are wrong.

Who wrote that? Those are not your words, are they Terry?

Haggard is obviously lying to everyone's face. He only admitted to doing as much as he did because that was on tape. Anyone who thinks that he did not have sex with the escort or snort the meth he purchased repeatedly is in an amazingly pathetic state of denial.

LMAO at "the flock" forgiving him. Where was that generosity for Clinton - who merely committed adultery, but did not purchase and use illegal drugs? I'm sure the same flock that forgives Haggard was ready to send Clinton to prison.

Really some incredible rationalizations there though. I'm impressed. That's even better than some of DTB's best deflections.
 

djv

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Log Cabin Republican Gays now say over 20000 strong. Feel they have been shunned by there party. Believe they should vote against there party or stay home Tuesday. OK!
 

Nick Douglas

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Do you see what I mean ? Do you think it is fine for a person who makes policy to portray themselves as someone they are not ? Personal beliefs and policy can not diverge, if there is strength behind the policy.

I think it's none of my business. I'm sure that Haggard believes that homosexual acts are wrong, but he seems to have a vice of doing meth with gay prostitutes.

Though I would like to think my vices (gambling, etc.) are less "wrong" than doing meth before having sex with gay male prostitutes, the fact is that we all have vices. I don't think anyone would want their own personal vices to be laid bare before the general public in this manner.

To your last statement about personal beliefs and public policy not diverting if the policy is strong, that's ridiculous. If that were true then the cinema, literary, theater and any other storytelling industry would have not existed through all of human history. It is basic human nature that people's principled beliefs will run contrary to their animal cravings at some point. It's foolhardy to think otherwise.
 

smurphy

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I don't think anyone would want their own personal vices to be laid bare before the general public in this manner.
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You sorta assume that risk when your entire fortune and popularity was from preaching about morality, judging others, and actively working to ban certain immoral behaviours of others.

It's not just morality though. Purchasing meth is against the law. Meth is destroying this country FAR WORSE than any homosexual behaviour ever could. Haggard actively participated in the destruction of kids, families, and the nation in general by participating in the meth trade. And he would have kept doing it if not called out in front of everyone by the escort. Vices are one thing, the law and a deadly drug is another.
 

Roger Baltrey

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The top Gay Republican is the Homo Talk show host Michael Medved...he rails all day long about Gays but this guy is a closet homo for sure. We shouldn't even be talking about this but it's the top issue for Repubs to bash gays so it always comes up.
 

Nick Douglas

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smurph,

I am with you 100% in talking about the fact that buying meth contributes to the huge problem it is in society (mostly in the gay community).

On your point about outing hypocrites, just remember that you can only be a hypocrite if you stand for something. As a lifelong liberal I've always seen tremendous hypocrisy coming from the right. A while back, however, I realized that part of the reason for hypocrisy is that you are willing to stand up for what you believe in.

My point here is that we are hurt as a society when we tell people that they are not allowed to stand for something unless they strictly follow it themselves. I know that sounds bad, but I firmly believe it.
 

SixFive

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another classic example of the frailty of man and why nobody should hold a man up in a place of worship or esteem in Church. If you put your faith in man (whatever your religion is), you're going to be sorely dissappointed in life. If you put your faith in Jesus and God (or whomever you want to believe in, I'm speaking to the majority faith here in the USA), then you'll not be disappointed. We'll always have men failing, the Haggards, the child molesting clergy, etc, etc, etc. God will never fail. I know just a little about Islam, but I'm pretty sure that the radicals who are doing the suicide bombs etc. are all following radical clerics who tell them this is the thing to do. I'm quite sure mohammad didn't teach this. Whether it be Christianity or islam, when people start worshipping a man, trouble is not far behind.

smurphy, it's not up to me or other people to "forgive" Haggard. That's for him to ask for and get from Jesus. He didn't harm me in any way (other than giving ammo to the folks who want to down Christianity), so what is there to forgive?? If he asks me to forgive him for wronging me personally, then I would do my best to do so. I'm not perfect, and it's hard to forgive those who have wronged you, but don't forget, for me to forgive somebody, they have to first ASK me to forgive them. I can't speak for his "followers". I'll agree, they do sound like sheep (one of the stupidest animals and the dumbest domestic).

I think he's an idiot, and I have since way before all of this scandal. Not shocking to me at all. Baker, Tilton, Haggard, (Bennie Hen will probably be exposed soon as will Marilyn Hickey), et al are all the same. I also agree with you that it is laughable that anybody could actually believe he didn't have sex with the prostitute and do meth.
 

smurphy

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I've got nothing against christianity at all. I was a christian, and I believe it's a good faith. I don't root for Christians to fail. The thing is, I don't think Haggard is a Christian. I don't think many of the evangelicals are christians. I think they are in it for the money, power, and politics. I do enjoy when these people fall because I feel their hypocritical behaviour is damaging and divisive. I don't like their involvement in politics. They are frauds.
 

djv

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These folks are in both parties. And I don't think to many care. The real shocker is coming when they find out how many are in the boy scouts. Holly chit the world will end that day.
It's like folks like to think none are in our armed forces.
 

Terryray

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Who wrote that? Those are not your words, are they Terry?


Those are my words. The arrangement anyway. I edited down comments I ran across in some blogs.

Mostly an attempt to understand and explain evangelicals. They are a powerful part of the body politic, and getting even more so. Look at their reproduction rate and inroads in the Hispanic community, even in Mexico.

But to explain isn't to exculpate, nor understand is to forgive.

Many evangelicals I know felt Clinton's sexcapade (you brought it up, I didn't) was between him and his confessor. They were less forgiving of his perjury and demeaning the office of the President. Charges enlarged, to be sure, by political animus---much like your little tirade about Haggard's small involvement in the meth trade, you sounding like some huffy crew cut crypto-fascist D.A.R.E. cop, it is altogether unconvincing.

What I find rather pathetic is that the most liberals can charge someone like Haggard with is hypocrisy. They use the hypocrite charge to beat up the occasional conservative they catch who doesn't measure up to Jesus and hope by killing the messenger, they can kill the message.


To be a hypocrite you have to hold higher standards than sometimes your behavior measures up to. Conservatives proclaim standards all the time and are thus easy targets, as Nick alludes to.

About the only standards liberals profess are a sort of neo-Rawlsian "whatever makes you happy" (as long as it isn't illegal). Not much you can ever catch a liberal with, as Ramesh Ponnuru once wrote "When Hugh Hefner moved out of the Playboy mansion the better to bring up his
two young sons, nobody accused him of not living down to his principles."
 

smurphy

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Yeah, Haggard's a great guy. He really stands for something. I shouldn't beat him up for breaking the law. I shouldn't beat him up for spending massive resources in attempt to ban gay marriages (whatever happened to "right to pursue happines") when he's been gay all along.

You can lump him in with christians if you want, but I don't think he's a crhistian to begin with at all. I think he and many evangelicals are complete frauds. Events like this basically prove that.

Hey, if you want to make excuses for him - feel free. I'm not representing liberals or Hugh Hefner, I'm just being me. I'm not trying to say liberals are better than Haggard. I was first in line to laugh in Cracklin Berry's face when he got caught smoking the rocks. I'm not trying to say one side is better than the other.

All I'm saying is Haggard, most evangelicals, and the religious right in general ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. Times like this prove that. They don't stand for ANYTHING. I was one of these people and I KNOW. It's a fraudulent, corrupt, greedy group of people that prey on people's faiths, but have no real faith of their own. They might draw inspiration from something, but it certainly isn't Jesus.
 

Terryray

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Hey, don't be shy about holding back your opinions and judgements:scared

judge-with-gavel.jpg



Got any good stories about your days as "one of these people" to illustrate?
 

smurphy

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Sure, plenty of examples...

There was the one year in high school when everyone in the youth group was all paranoid about the growth of Mormons in the area. Yes - that was a dangerous lot of sinners. We dug up all the research we could to paint them as being an evil cult and make sure souls did not get trapped in the church of Joe Smith. ....But of course as I grew older and studied some demographics I could see that it was all a big money play by the leaders. It was a battle for tithes, not souls. Gotta make sure that suburban money gets to the right church leaders.

In about 5th or 6th grade, I remember we rounded up all of our Dungeons and Dragons type games for a good ol fashioned New Life eveil game burning. We actually threw D & D into the fireplace! Yeah, Jesus would have been proud.

In 7th grade, I remember showing up at Sunday school and being treated to a surprise viewing of an abortion that was caught on film. No warning to parents, no caution whatsoever - just BAM there you go - now think like us!

Sometime later, finally approaching college years I remember these wonderful evangelicals telling me that couldn't maintain my friendship with a gay guy. It would impede my "walk with the lord". Finally, I grew up and grew a pair and told them very politely to fk off.

But I know christians - real christians. They are not like evangelicals. They are humble in their faith and do not judge others. I know the difference.
 

smurphy

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Hey, don't be shy about holding back your opinions and judgements:scared

judge-with-gavel.jpg



Got any good stories about your days as "one of these people" to illustrate?

Hey man, thanks for making me think of some of this stuff. I'm recalling lots of great conversations from those days now.

I remember this one girl in the group (about 15) praying how she couldn't wait to die and meet Jesus.....and receiving lots of amens and mumbled prayerish props for it. I was thinking to myself how fucked up of a thing that is for a teenager to want to just skip life altogether and be with god, but of course I probably mumbled some kind of "yeah" also.

I think 1988 was last involovement with any of this stuff. I remember that presidential election. Our group of course was elated about Pat Robertson running. One guy in group prayer thanked God that a man of faith was running for president, and asked for blessing on his campaign. ...This was great - I was beginning to see the light at this time and when prayers were over I went up to the guy who had that prayer and asked him if he was talking about Jesse Jeackson. Because of course Jackson was running in that campaign too - being a reverand and all - he too was a man of faith, right? Well, this guy who made the prayer turned all red and was very insulted at my question. I guess suburban right wing Christians didn't feel that Jesse Jackson was the right kind of Christian or something. Go figure.
 

smurphy

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Oh man, and the clicks were unbearable. There was like some kind of hierarchy based on how much you smiled and judged others. The people at the top had that weird Ted Haggard smile - worse than any politician can muster.

It was so phony, all the way through. We were not taught to love or be generous, we were taught to judge, vote republican, and keep the money flowing into their pockets. Because without their support in our walk, we were lost. And they even bribed us - claiming that when you give to the church, you will actually get more in return because your finances are now "blessed".

I can't believe adults fall for this crap. At least I was a kid - I had an excuse.
 

StevieD

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Think about these Republican errrr Neocon hypocrites for a minute. George W. Bush says being gay is a choice. Yet the leader of his church, who talks to God and advises Georgie Boy, says he has been fighting it all his life. So what is it a choice or not? :shrug: Lying sacks of puke.
 

SixFive

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Think about these Republican errrr Neocon hypocrites for a minute. George W. Bush says being gay is a choice. Yet the leader of his church, who talks to God and advises Georgie Boy, says he has been fighting it all his life. So what is it a choice or not? :shrug: Lying sacks of puke.

the leader of the church is God, not this clown.
 

smurphy

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Got any good stories about your days as "one of these people" to illustrate?
No response to my testimonials? I sensed some doubt from you in my sincerety before. Are you still skeptical? Any faith in the honesty of my experiences? Or is my witnessing as disingenious as my outrage over Haggard's meth dealing?
 

kosar

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I love that word 'testimonial.' Not sure exactly why, but it sounds nice.

Other words that are soothing to me include 'valve' and 'chalk.'
 

smurphy

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My favorite churchy word back then was "anoint(ing)", and for some reason we always sang about "Emanuel", but never talked about him. I guess Emanuel was another (Jewsish I think) word for Jesus. Sounded great in song, but not so effective in a sermon. ...Great frickin movies though! There was always a great Euro girl-girl scene in those flicks.
 
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