since when has any liberal done the honorable thing, if that was the case billie blow job would have resigned in his first term
kerry's military record
- Thread starter AR182
- Start date
I will move to Canada if Kerry the fawk is elected...that guy is sooooooooooooo plastic....for chrissakes..open your eyes, boys.
ozball quote:"If Kerry is shown to have lied about his record, he no doubt would do the honorable thing for his party and withdraw from the race..."
how do you know that he would withdraw?
how do you know that he would withdraw?
I didn't know Clinton was running again. Little late to worry about him. So far Kerrys record seems just fine. He Followed the rules. They gave him medals. We can throw out the purple hearts if you wish and the bronze star. But silver is not handed out to easy.
DJV as a vetern give me your anology on these. From Washington Post today.
"Two weeks into his new assignment, before he was even given his own crew, Kerry was wounded on a swift-boat mission on Dec. 2, 1968. For that, he received his first -- and most controversial -- Purple Heart.
Grant Hibbard, Kerry's commanding officer, questioned the injury after Kerry first put in for the medal. Now 69 and living in Florida, Hibbard recently told reporters for the Boston Globe and USA Today that Kerry had only "a scratch" on his forearm and that Hibbard had no evidence that Kerry was under enemy fire when he was injured. In an interview with The Post, Hibbard stood by his remarks but declined to elaborate on them."
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Medic at aid station treated with bacitration ointment and returned him imediately to duty. Bacitration ointment is in every aid bag on boats so why do you think he just didn't get treated on his boat like everyone else.????
--but in his defense
In an interview, Brinkley said Kerry "was not medal-hunting." In Vietnam, the historian said, there was "historical medal inflation," to keep soldiers engaged in the war. "That was not John Kerry's fault," he said.
"The fact is, John Kerry was exceedingly lucky in Vietnam that his three wounds were minor," he said.
Who is Brinkley?? He's the one that wrote book for Kerry on his viet nam campaign
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Bronze Star: for info purposes Rassman was the man he pull aboard.
"Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire," says the citation for Kerry's Bronze Star, which he earned on this mission, along with his third Purple Heart, "while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard."
Rassman nominated Kerry for the Silver Star -- and to this day, he is perplexed that it was downgraded to the Bronze. "I figure I was dead, because so many people were shooting at me," Rassman said. "He came right up to the bow of the boat and pulled me in. That was stupid."
Rassman had not seen Kerry for 35 years when he called the campaign in January and offered to work a phone bank. Within a day, the campaign flew him to Iowa and had him talking to voters and the media in Iowa.
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I have to laugh at this--as I said prior every medic would have warrented as many as 10 bronze stars a day for that type of action on many occasions-- uh make that Silver Stars according to Rassman.
There were 2 courses of action possible-pull the wounded man in or run off and leave him.
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Now my favorite DJV The silver Star
Before the end of 1968, Kerry received his first command, the PCF-44. Within a month, he was assigned a new crew and was skippering the PCF-94 on the Mekong Delta, where he faced the most combat and received most of his citations. In February 1969, he took shrapnel in his left leg, earning his second Purple Heart. The next month, he killed the Viet Cong who was holding the rocket launcher -- for which he earned the Silver Star.
During Kerry's bid for reelection to the Senate in 1996, the media raised questions about whether the enemy was down and wounded when Kerry killed him. For the first time in 27 years, the men of PCF-94 gathered that year in Boston to help defend their former skipper and credit him with saving their lives that day.
They said this was the situation: They were ferrying troops up a river when they started taking fire. Kerry ordered his boat turned to face the bank and charge the enemy. As they approached the bank, the Viet Cong jumped up and began running away from their boat.
Several of the crew believe the Viet Cong had been wounded; they all believe that he could have been trying to get far enough from their boat so he could fire a rocket at it. Kerry, they said, chased him down and eliminated a grave potential threat.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Consider this-Swift boats are equiped with twin 50 cals 2 m-60s plus your other goodies.
For the above to occur you have to have the most inept 50 cal/m-60 operators in existance not to be able to shoot a visible VC at that close of range--then you have to believe they dock the boat and let the commander jump off boat--and all the time ole Charlie sees the boat coming in to dock and despite all fire power from boat he waits till it docks to run off and Kerry is able to chase him down in his own terrain. I can not conceive this story to be remotely possible.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But we have many of his crew (except one) confirm this story.
--so lets ask ourselves why. 1st someone on boat had to nominate him for these and I would be curious to see what awards and promotions the rest of crew received--if you get my drift--and add to the fact---
"Throughout the last decade of Kerry's political career, his crewmates have defended him when his credentials and record have been questioned; they are now campaigning for him. In a recent interview, Kerry dismissed the current questions about his first Purple Heart as partisan politics. He also said he left early because he had turned on the war. One of his crewmates, Michael Medeiros, said Kerry ensured that his men were given a non-threatening assignment before he left Vietnam"
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and while I can't confirm this and I find it odd it has not been released in U.S. papers--from the London Telegraph
"Senator John Kerry ? tried to defer his military service for a year, according to a newly rediscovered article in a Harvard University newspaper.
He wrote to his local recruitment board seeking permission to spend a further 12 months studying in Paris, after completing his degree course at Yale University in the mid-1960s. ?
The Harvard Crimson newspaper followed a youthful Mr Kerry in Boston as he campaigned for Congress for the first time in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, ?John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress?, published on February 18, the paper reported: ?When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.?
Samuel Goldhaber, the article?s author who is now a cardiologist attached to the Harvard School of Medicine, spent 11 hours trailing Mr Kerry and still remembers that the subject of the Paris deferment came up during long conversations about Vietnam.
?I stand by my story,? he told The Telegraph. ?It was a long time ago, and I was 19 at the time, so it is hard to remember every detail. But I do know this: at no point did Kerry contact either me or the Crimson to dispute anything I had written.?
"Two weeks into his new assignment, before he was even given his own crew, Kerry was wounded on a swift-boat mission on Dec. 2, 1968. For that, he received his first -- and most controversial -- Purple Heart.
Grant Hibbard, Kerry's commanding officer, questioned the injury after Kerry first put in for the medal. Now 69 and living in Florida, Hibbard recently told reporters for the Boston Globe and USA Today that Kerry had only "a scratch" on his forearm and that Hibbard had no evidence that Kerry was under enemy fire when he was injured. In an interview with The Post, Hibbard stood by his remarks but declined to elaborate on them."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Medic at aid station treated with bacitration ointment and returned him imediately to duty. Bacitration ointment is in every aid bag on boats so why do you think he just didn't get treated on his boat like everyone else.????
--but in his defense
In an interview, Brinkley said Kerry "was not medal-hunting." In Vietnam, the historian said, there was "historical medal inflation," to keep soldiers engaged in the war. "That was not John Kerry's fault," he said.
"The fact is, John Kerry was exceedingly lucky in Vietnam that his three wounds were minor," he said.
Who is Brinkley?? He's the one that wrote book for Kerry on his viet nam campaign
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Bronze Star: for info purposes Rassman was the man he pull aboard.
"Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire," says the citation for Kerry's Bronze Star, which he earned on this mission, along with his third Purple Heart, "while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard."
Rassman nominated Kerry for the Silver Star -- and to this day, he is perplexed that it was downgraded to the Bronze. "I figure I was dead, because so many people were shooting at me," Rassman said. "He came right up to the bow of the boat and pulled me in. That was stupid."
Rassman had not seen Kerry for 35 years when he called the campaign in January and offered to work a phone bank. Within a day, the campaign flew him to Iowa and had him talking to voters and the media in Iowa.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have to laugh at this--as I said prior every medic would have warrented as many as 10 bronze stars a day for that type of action on many occasions-- uh make that Silver Stars according to Rassman.
There were 2 courses of action possible-pull the wounded man in or run off and leave him.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now my favorite DJV The silver Star
Before the end of 1968, Kerry received his first command, the PCF-44. Within a month, he was assigned a new crew and was skippering the PCF-94 on the Mekong Delta, where he faced the most combat and received most of his citations. In February 1969, he took shrapnel in his left leg, earning his second Purple Heart. The next month, he killed the Viet Cong who was holding the rocket launcher -- for which he earned the Silver Star.
During Kerry's bid for reelection to the Senate in 1996, the media raised questions about whether the enemy was down and wounded when Kerry killed him. For the first time in 27 years, the men of PCF-94 gathered that year in Boston to help defend their former skipper and credit him with saving their lives that day.
They said this was the situation: They were ferrying troops up a river when they started taking fire. Kerry ordered his boat turned to face the bank and charge the enemy. As they approached the bank, the Viet Cong jumped up and began running away from their boat.
Several of the crew believe the Viet Cong had been wounded; they all believe that he could have been trying to get far enough from their boat so he could fire a rocket at it. Kerry, they said, chased him down and eliminated a grave potential threat.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Consider this-Swift boats are equiped with twin 50 cals 2 m-60s plus your other goodies.
For the above to occur you have to have the most inept 50 cal/m-60 operators in existance not to be able to shoot a visible VC at that close of range--then you have to believe they dock the boat and let the commander jump off boat--and all the time ole Charlie sees the boat coming in to dock and despite all fire power from boat he waits till it docks to run off and Kerry is able to chase him down in his own terrain. I can not conceive this story to be remotely possible.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But we have many of his crew (except one) confirm this story.
--so lets ask ourselves why. 1st someone on boat had to nominate him for these and I would be curious to see what awards and promotions the rest of crew received--if you get my drift--and add to the fact---
"Throughout the last decade of Kerry's political career, his crewmates have defended him when his credentials and record have been questioned; they are now campaigning for him. In a recent interview, Kerry dismissed the current questions about his first Purple Heart as partisan politics. He also said he left early because he had turned on the war. One of his crewmates, Michael Medeiros, said Kerry ensured that his men were given a non-threatening assignment before he left Vietnam"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and while I can't confirm this and I find it odd it has not been released in U.S. papers--from the London Telegraph
"Senator John Kerry ? tried to defer his military service for a year, according to a newly rediscovered article in a Harvard University newspaper.
He wrote to his local recruitment board seeking permission to spend a further 12 months studying in Paris, after completing his degree course at Yale University in the mid-1960s. ?
The Harvard Crimson newspaper followed a youthful Mr Kerry in Boston as he campaigned for Congress for the first time in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, ?John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress?, published on February 18, the paper reported: ?When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.?
Samuel Goldhaber, the article?s author who is now a cardiologist attached to the Harvard School of Medicine, spent 11 hours trailing Mr Kerry and still remembers that the subject of the Paris deferment came up during long conversations about Vietnam.
?I stand by my story,? he told The Telegraph. ?It was a long time ago, and I was 19 at the time, so it is hard to remember every detail. But I do know this: at no point did Kerry contact either me or the Crimson to dispute anything I had written.?
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I was around during the Viet Nam era. Participated in the draft lottery. My number was something like 197. Was the summer between my freshman and sophmore year at UC. My friends and I were traveling to California in a van listening to our 8 track playing Maggie May and Every Picture Tells a Story by Rod Stewart.
Stopped in Scottsdale and bought a dime bag from some crusty looking dude calling himself 182. Continued on to California where I heard read my lottery number while enjoying some of the product purchased from this 182 guy and sitting in a cabin at Point Sur. You know that old saying about more stars in the sky than grains of sand on the earth. Well I never believed it until that first night at Big Sur.
Anyway, the reality at that time was that the poor, minorities and uneducated were going to Viet Nam, with all due respect to those that went. The rest of us were going to CCR to avoid going to Viet Nam. No you morons not the Credence Clearwater Revival concert but rather College, Canada or the Reserves. Since Mr. Bush had already completed his undergraduate work (cocaine, beer and gym class) he had a choice, either Canada or the Reserves.
Since Georgie couldn't do the Canada thing due to daddys political agenda for both himself and his boy, he joined up with the reserves. Couldn't get the student deferment as he already used that up at Yale. The point being that Georgie boy joined the Texas Air Guard for the sole purpose of avoiding the draft and not going to Viet Nam. Commonly done among the rich folk. He ran the risk of being a normal grunt if drafted and doing a Apocalypse Now or Platoon thing.
At least Kerry went and fought. He didn't duck it and for that I give him credit. In addition, he later came out against this war. Question to our Bush supporters, do you think the Viet Nam war was the right thing to do for this country. If so, then you are stuck with a president who did his all to avoid fighting in that rightous war. If not, then you have a democratic candidate who fought in the war (not a popular thing to do for a rich kid like Kerry) and then later told the truth about Viet Nam I. Can't have it both ways kids.
Now here we are at Viet Nam II. I wonder if Jenna B. and her other lush sister whose name I can't remember are signing up for the Texas Air Guard like daddy. Gosh, Yale, Texas Air Guard. Its great to be a legacy.
You know the funny thing about what Bushie did, is I would have done the exact same thing if my number was 50 or lower (I believe thats where they stopped taking guys). I would not have gone to Canada (not because of any political aspirations but rather cause I didn't want to leave the USA) but I would have assured myself of some stateside military tour of duty where my greatest risk of injury was getting rear ended in my volkswagon van as I drove to my base for my on again off again two week commitment to the Ohio National Guard.
While in the Ohio National Guard, the other major threat to my well being may have been risking life and limb while shooting some unarmed students at Kent State. The reality is that this puke we have for a president ducked fighting in Viet Nam. Pure and simple. Not that I wouldn't have done the same. But for him to now come out and raise these nauseating patriotic claims is so typically hypocritical. Guy is complete scum.
I think it was Oz who said it earlier about why this is an issue now. It's because most of the right wing members of this board for 8 years were talking about how much of a coward Clinton, the draft dodger was. The reality boys, is your hero on Pennsylvannia Avenue was just as much of a draft dodger as Clinton. Thats the truth. No matter how you color it. He guaranteed himself a nice cushy military career, two weeks at a time, without running any personal risk of injury. That is of course, unless Texas was attacked. It was the Tet offensive, not the Tex offensive.
Attack Texas? Hmmmm. It's got possiblities.
So as the "liberal" media ain't showing any flag draped coffins coming off of military airplanes and private civilians employed by defense contractors are being fired for taking pictures of such coffins (maybe that first amendment has already been repealed in order to make room for the marriage amendment) I want you all to think about your hero in DC.
Hypocrites, liars and self-interest. What an administration.
Eddie
Stopped in Scottsdale and bought a dime bag from some crusty looking dude calling himself 182. Continued on to California where I heard read my lottery number while enjoying some of the product purchased from this 182 guy and sitting in a cabin at Point Sur. You know that old saying about more stars in the sky than grains of sand on the earth. Well I never believed it until that first night at Big Sur.
Anyway, the reality at that time was that the poor, minorities and uneducated were going to Viet Nam, with all due respect to those that went. The rest of us were going to CCR to avoid going to Viet Nam. No you morons not the Credence Clearwater Revival concert but rather College, Canada or the Reserves. Since Mr. Bush had already completed his undergraduate work (cocaine, beer and gym class) he had a choice, either Canada or the Reserves.
Since Georgie couldn't do the Canada thing due to daddys political agenda for both himself and his boy, he joined up with the reserves. Couldn't get the student deferment as he already used that up at Yale. The point being that Georgie boy joined the Texas Air Guard for the sole purpose of avoiding the draft and not going to Viet Nam. Commonly done among the rich folk. He ran the risk of being a normal grunt if drafted and doing a Apocalypse Now or Platoon thing.
At least Kerry went and fought. He didn't duck it and for that I give him credit. In addition, he later came out against this war. Question to our Bush supporters, do you think the Viet Nam war was the right thing to do for this country. If so, then you are stuck with a president who did his all to avoid fighting in that rightous war. If not, then you have a democratic candidate who fought in the war (not a popular thing to do for a rich kid like Kerry) and then later told the truth about Viet Nam I. Can't have it both ways kids.
Now here we are at Viet Nam II. I wonder if Jenna B. and her other lush sister whose name I can't remember are signing up for the Texas Air Guard like daddy. Gosh, Yale, Texas Air Guard. Its great to be a legacy.
You know the funny thing about what Bushie did, is I would have done the exact same thing if my number was 50 or lower (I believe thats where they stopped taking guys). I would not have gone to Canada (not because of any political aspirations but rather cause I didn't want to leave the USA) but I would have assured myself of some stateside military tour of duty where my greatest risk of injury was getting rear ended in my volkswagon van as I drove to my base for my on again off again two week commitment to the Ohio National Guard.
While in the Ohio National Guard, the other major threat to my well being may have been risking life and limb while shooting some unarmed students at Kent State. The reality is that this puke we have for a president ducked fighting in Viet Nam. Pure and simple. Not that I wouldn't have done the same. But for him to now come out and raise these nauseating patriotic claims is so typically hypocritical. Guy is complete scum.
I think it was Oz who said it earlier about why this is an issue now. It's because most of the right wing members of this board for 8 years were talking about how much of a coward Clinton, the draft dodger was. The reality boys, is your hero on Pennsylvannia Avenue was just as much of a draft dodger as Clinton. Thats the truth. No matter how you color it. He guaranteed himself a nice cushy military career, two weeks at a time, without running any personal risk of injury. That is of course, unless Texas was attacked. It was the Tet offensive, not the Tex offensive.
Attack Texas? Hmmmm. It's got possiblities.
So as the "liberal" media ain't showing any flag draped coffins coming off of military airplanes and private civilians employed by defense contractors are being fired for taking pictures of such coffins (maybe that first amendment has already been repealed in order to make room for the marriage amendment) I want you all to think about your hero in DC.
Hypocrites, liars and self-interest. What an administration.
Eddie
DTB I said earlier on that medals in Nam came to easy. It seemed like they were used as moral boosters. However we dont know. They may have followed same rules for purple hearts for many wars. I agree someone who has his leg riped off by a bounceing betty. He deserves more then a purple heart. Your thoughts on Medics is good point. If you want to take some extra risk and get medals. If your a medic, with a field unit you can get your chance once or twice a week. Im not saying theres either anything wrong or right about it. As for kerry I was only pointing out he did not duck it he went. I have to give him more credit for going then side steping.
Eddie,
I agree with most of what you said. I was around during that time too, my older brother was drafted and wound up in Nam. He came home on leave and went AWOL...the family talked him into going back. I was a sraight-arrow patriotic brainwashed hawk during that time...signed up in my senior year of highchool in 72 to "stop communism". While in basic, "trickydick" started scaling back and I wound up in Turkey instead. Looking back on it now, I do think it was more about maintaing our way of life "economically". I respect Kerry for having gone....I respect Bush's decision for the route that he took...and I don't hold any resentment for Fonda and the protesting college students.
I believe the "shotcallers" do pull some under handed scheming stunts to maintain our "economic" way of life in this dog eat dog world.....hell if they did everything on the "up and up", the USA would have been swallowed up decades ago.
I know many won't agree with me, but I still see the presidency as a "puppet" position. They play the ol "good cop, bad cop" game with the rest of the world and with the American people. They'll slide Bush in for another term...strategically strengthen our military presence around the world...then replace him with an "electable democrat" in 08 for a "kinder more gentle" America. The system keeps rolling along.
TT
I agree with most of what you said. I was around during that time too, my older brother was drafted and wound up in Nam. He came home on leave and went AWOL...the family talked him into going back. I was a sraight-arrow patriotic brainwashed hawk during that time...signed up in my senior year of highchool in 72 to "stop communism". While in basic, "trickydick" started scaling back and I wound up in Turkey instead. Looking back on it now, I do think it was more about maintaing our way of life "economically". I respect Kerry for having gone....I respect Bush's decision for the route that he took...and I don't hold any resentment for Fonda and the protesting college students.
I believe the "shotcallers" do pull some under handed scheming stunts to maintain our "economic" way of life in this dog eat dog world.....hell if they did everything on the "up and up", the USA would have been swallowed up decades ago.
I know many won't agree with me, but I still see the presidency as a "puppet" position. They play the ol "good cop, bad cop" game with the rest of the world and with the American people. They'll slide Bush in for another term...strategically strengthen our military presence around the world...then replace him with an "electable democrat" in 08 for a "kinder more gentle" America. The system keeps rolling along.
TT
Tony:
Happy 50th. Excellent post. I totally agree that Bush is so vulnerable now but Kerry may not be strong enough. This oughta get some hoots from the boys but if Clinton would consider running, I think he would win.
Ed
Happy 50th. Excellent post. I totally agree that Bush is so vulnerable now but Kerry may not be strong enough. This oughta get some hoots from the boys but if Clinton would consider running, I think he would win.
Ed
Like I've said before, Kerry's military service is the only thing about him I respect. I wouldn't say his wounds and medals were embellished, because I don't know. However, I would say the scenarios DTB posted on how he earned them were quite suspect, and I agree with his comments, especially jumping out of the boat and chasing down and killing the RPG wielding VC (that seems laughable).
DTB, u would have 3 more frames filled with medals had they handed them out so easy to u and your fellow LRRPs!
DTB, u would have 3 more frames filled with medals had they handed them out so easy to u and your fellow LRRPs!
i dont understand attacking Kerry's military record myself....
good grief, not everything is wrong about the guy......sure his actions after the war were reprehensible but during the war i could care less how he got his medals.....about the only action i would ever condemn in a person at war is treason or desertion
the guy is a condescending buffoon though and the way he talks is so irritating....it is so chopped up - he says one word every 5 seconds -- and makes me laugh my ass off because he is one of those guys who walks into a room and immediately assumes he is the smartest guy in it
good grief, not everything is wrong about the guy......sure his actions after the war were reprehensible but during the war i could care less how he got his medals.....about the only action i would ever condemn in a person at war is treason or desertion
the guy is a condescending buffoon though and the way he talks is so irritating....it is so chopped up - he says one word every 5 seconds -- and makes me laugh my ass off because he is one of those guys who walks into a room and immediately assumes he is the smartest guy in it
Doc and you dont feal Bush feals that way when he walks in a room. Or do you think he knows he's not one of the brighter lites in the room when he walks in. Lets try to be fair on who comes across like they may have been past 12 grade.
i think bush realizes he isn't a very good communicator......kerry however, does not realize that
Tony I don't hold resentment EXCEPT for Fonda. Who,and you may not know this, was broadcast over loudspeakers by the North Vietnamese, in an attempt to demoralize troops.American Troops. If the grim reaper came tomorrow and told me he was taking either Fonda or Charles Manson and the choice was mine--Fonda better be getting her shit in order.
Edward
"Hypocrites, liars and self-interest. What an administration."
Which administration are you speaking. I can only think of 1 that had a convicted liar,went from a $36,000 lawyer salary to millions,via bread and breakfasts and pardoning 10 most wanted ect.---is this catering to the little guy
Now I am going to have to congratulate you on your victory
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,112425,00.html
--but at what expense--
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,118049,00.html
Edward
"Hypocrites, liars and self-interest. What an administration."
Which administration are you speaking. I can only think of 1 that had a convicted liar,went from a $36,000 lawyer salary to millions,via bread and breakfasts and pardoning 10 most wanted ect.---is this catering to the little guy
Now I am going to have to congratulate you on your victory
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,112425,00.html
--but at what expense--
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,118049,00.html
