Krauthammer-healthcare

DOGS THAT BARK

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Kill the Bills. Do Health Reform Right

By Charles Krauthammer

WASHINGTON -- The United States has the best health care in the world -- but because of its inefficiencies, also the most expensive. The fundamental problem with the 2,074-page Senate health-care bill (as with its 2,014-page House counterpart) is that it wildly compounds the complexity by adding hundreds of new provisions, regulations, mandates, committees and other arbitrary bureaucratic inventions.
Worse, they are packed into a monstrous package without any regard to each other. The only thing linking these changes -- such as the 118 new boards, commissions and programs -- is political expediency. Each must be able to garner just enough votes to pass. There is not even a pretense of a unifying vision or conceptual harmony.
The result is an overregulated, overbureaucratized system of surpassing arbitrariness and inefficiency. Throw a dart at the Senate tome:
-- You'll find mandates with financial penalties -- the amounts picked out of a hat.
-- You'll find insurance companies (who live and die by their actuarial skills) told exactly what weight to give risk factors, such as age. Currently insurance premiums for 20-somethings are about one-sixth the premiums for 60-somethings. The House bill dictates the young shall now pay at minimum one-half; the Senate bill, one-third -- numbers picked out of a hat.
-- You'll find sliding scales for health-insurance subsidies -- percentages picked out of a hat -- that will radically raise marginal income tax rates for middle- class recipients, among other crazy unintended consequences

The bill is irredeemable. It should not only be defeated. It should be immolated, its ashes scattered over the Senate swimming pool.
Then do health care the right way -- one reform at a time, each simple and simplifying, aimed at reducing complexity, arbitrariness and inefficiency.
First, tort reform. This is money -- the low-end estimate is about half a trillion per decade -- wasted in two ways. Part is simply hemorrhaged into the legal system to benefit a few jackpot lawsuit winners and an army of extravagantly rich malpractice lawyers such as John Edwards.
The rest is wasted within the medical system in the millions of unnecessary tests, procedures and referrals undertaken solely to fend off lawsuits -- resources wasted on patients who don't need them and which could be redirected to the uninsured who really do.
In the 4,000-plus pages of the two bills, there is no tort reform. Indeed, the House bill actually penalizes states that dare "limit attorneys' fees or impose caps on damages." Why? Because, as Howard Dean has openly admitted, Democrats don't want "to take on the trial lawyers." What he didn't say -- he didn't need to -- is that they give millions to the Democrats for precisely this kind of protection.
Second, even more simple and simplifying, abolish the prohibition against buying health insurance across state lines.
Some states have very few health insurers. Rates are high. So why not allow interstate competition? After all, you can buy oranges across state lines. If you couldn't, oranges would be extremely expensive in Wisconsin, especially in winter.
And the answer to the resulting high Wisconsin orange prices wouldn't be the establishment of a public option -- a federally run orange-growing company in Wisconsin -- to introduce "competition." It would be to allow Wisconsin residents to buy Florida oranges.
But neither bill lifts the prohibition on interstate competition for health insurance. Because this would obviate the need -- the excuse -- for the public option, which the left wing of the Democratic Party sees (correctly) as the royal road to fully socialized medicine.
Third, tax employer-provided health insurance. This is an accrued inefficiency of 65 years, an accident of World War II wage controls. It creates a $250 billion annual loss of federal revenues -- the largest tax break for individuals in the entire federal budget.
This reform is the most difficult to enact, for two reasons. The unions oppose it. And the Obama campaign savaged the idea when John McCain proposed it during last year's election.
Insuring the uninsured is a moral imperative. The problem is that the Democrats have chosen the worst possible method -- a $1 trillion new entitlement of stupefying arbitrariness and inefficiency.
The better choice is targeted measures that attack the inefficiencies of the current system one by one -- tort reform, interstate purchasing and taxing employee benefits. It would take 20 pages to write such a bill, not 2,000 -- and provide the funds to cover the uninsured without wrecking both U.S. health care and the U.S. Treasury.
<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> checkTextResizerCookie('article_body'); </SCRIPT>letters@charleskrauthammer.com
 

THE KOD

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yeh do one reform at a time.

the Neocons love that.

that means no reform.

we waited 30 years with these thiefs running the show.

Change we can believe in

put through the healthcare bill , then reform the things that dont work.

doogy duh gumby DTB
 

Chadman

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Yeah, interesting plan. Krauthammer would definitely prefer, like his party, that these bills were defeated, and we go back to things the way they have always been, except attacking the lawyers. But, I guess he thinks that taxing americans for their employer insurance is a good thing, which will of course hurt everyone who currently supposedly is happy with their insurance (that their employers are getting killed with). Another tax on Americans, is his only new real proposal. Interesting. And the interstate competition thing, in my opinion, is bullshit. Of course the democratic plan would allow for a wide range of plans, across the country, definitely across state lines, and would breed competiton and lower costs for everyone, including employers and individuals. To simply shop across state lines would merely allow the bigger companies to continue to get bigger, as they continue to buy up competitors, and control markets in more states, controlling the cost in their favor, effectively killing off competition.

Yeah, let's kill the bills completely. That's worked really well for all of us so far, hasn't it?
 

THE KOD

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BREAKING NEWS

CNN) -- Liberal and moderate Democrats have reached "broad agreement" on a health care bill that will be sent to the Congressional Budget Office Wednesday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday.

Reid and the two senators who led the negotiations -- Charles Schumer and Mark Pryor -- would not reveal any details of the plan.

"It goes without saying it's been kind of a long journey," Reid said. "Tonight we've overcome a real problem that we had. I think it's fair to say the debate at this stage has been portrayed as a very divisive one."

Senators have been stymied over several issues, most notably a proposal to provide a public insurance option for those who have no other way to obtain insurance and an amendment offered by Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska to tighten restrictions on federal funding for abortion.

Nelson's amendment was tabled on a 54-45 vote Tuesday afternoon, effectively killing it from further consideration. The House version of the bill contains the restrictive language.

"We can't disclose the details of what we've done but believe me we've got something that is good, that I think is very good," Reid said. "For us it moves this bill way down the road."

Earlier, the negotiating senators said the ideas under discussion would replace the controversial public option in a compromise intended to win the support of the chamber's entire Democratic caucus.

"All of the pieces have to fit together before anyone agrees on anything, but in that area we have pretty good consensus," said Schumer of New York.

Senate Republicans unanimously oppose the health care bill so far, so it will require support from all 60 members of the Democratic caucus for it to pass.

Schumer described four components under discussion to replace a public option that is favored by liberal Democrats but opposed by some moderates and all Republicans.

The compromise ideas include a not-for-profit private insurance option overseen by the federal Office of Personnel Management, much like the current health plan for federal workers; allowing people 55 and older to buy into Medicare coverage that currently is available to those 65 and older; expanding the Medicaid program for low-income people "without too much extra cost" and additional insurance reform measures, Schumer said.

Two of the negotiators, liberal Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia and moderate Nelson, were working out the additional unspecified reforms, according to Schumer.

"If we're not going to get the public option ... then there have to be other ways to encourage discipline and self restraint" in the health insurance industry to hold down overall costs, Rockefeller said.

Schumer said the challenge of a compromise is reaching a balance on government involvement in health care.

"What we are trying to do is reconfigure that, not having more of one or less of one, but in different ways that are more acceptable," Schumer said.

Two senators who oppose a public option, moderate Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine and independent Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, said they were open to the nonprofit private alternative to a public option.

"It can be an innovative approach," said Snowe, considered to be perhaps the lone GOP senator who might support the health care bill. "I just would need to understand more about how it would work."

Lieberman, a member of the Democratic caucus who said he would join a Republican filibuster if the health care bill contains a public option, called the alternative "an idea worth considering, so long as it remains private insurance companies that would be essentially regulated by OPM."

However, both Lieberman and Snowe expressed concern over the idea of allowing Americans age 55 and older to buy into Medicare.

"I want to make sure we're not adding a big additional burden to the Medicare program which we need to figure out how to save because it's going bankrupt," Lieberman said.

The idea appeals to liberal Democrats seeking to expand health coverage to more Americans and could offset their opposition to a bill that lacks a full public option as originally proposed.

Other ideas in the package under discussion include expanding the Medicaid program more than currently called for in the bill and expanding a proposal in the bill that gives money to states to allow them to cover low-income people through existing programs instead of Medicaid.

Snowe flatly rejected a possible expansion of Medicaid.

"It's a huge burden on the states," Snowe said. "It is without question, and without a doubt a very expensive proposition."

Senators taking part in the talks include Schumer and liberals Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Rockefeller, Tom Harkin of Iowa and Sherrod Brown of Ohio; along with moderates Thomas Carper of Delaware, Nelson, Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:00hour :00hour


CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN !
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Scott One thing has been obvious--

You LOVE that government tit--

--and in your case from what you've told us I would have to agree --as you need them once again to step in and bail you out.

I can certainly understand your indentifying with Obama/his redistribution projects/da base :)
 

THE KOD

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Scott One thing has been obvious--

You LOVE that government tit--

--and in your case from what you've told us I would have to agree --as you need them once again to step in and bail you out.

I can certainly understand your indentifying with Obama/his redistribution projects/da base :)

...................................................................

your just afraid that I will have the same insurance as you do , and you will have to pay some more for it.

you selfish black gumby rat bastid
 

THE KOD

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looks like they are talking about making medicare available to 55 yr olds

Thats something new I hadnt heard about
 

THE KOD

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"People who need to buy coverage as individuals and small employers are going to have a lot more in the way of attractive health insurance options, and they won't have to worry about whether their medical condition precludes them from being covered," said policy expert Paul Ginsburg, who heads the nonpartisan Center for Studying Health System Change. :00hour

The downside: "Sticker shock is going to come to some."

Get ready for a whole new set of trade-offs.

For example, people in their 50s and early 60s, when health problems tend to surface, are likely to pay less than they would now. Those in their 20s and 30s, who get the best deals today, will face higher premiums, though for better coverage.

Obama on Wednesday hailed a tentative deal by Democratic senators to give millions of Americans the option of signing up for private plans sponsored by the federal employee health system, which covers some 8 million including members of Congress. The compromise, which also offers people age 55 to 64 the option of buying into Medicare, appears to have given Democrats a way around the dealbreaker issue of a new government plan to compete with private carriers. Senators continued to debate for a 10th day, with Democrats pushing to pass the bill by Christmas. INTERACTIVE

The Senate bill will grow even longer as amendments are considered, but the basic outlines of the legislation most likely to pass are becoming clearer.

The overhaul will be phased in slowly, over the next three to four years. But eventually all Americans will be required to carry coverage or face a tax penalty, except in cases of financial hardship. Insurers won't be able to deny coverage to people with health problems, or charge them more or cut them off.

Most of the uninsured will be covered, but not all. As many as 24 million people would remain uninsured in 2019, many of them otherwise eligible Americans who still can't afford the premiums. Lawmakers propose to spend nearly $1 trillion over 10 years to provide coverage, most of the money going to help lower-income people. But a middle-class family of four making $66,000 would still have to pay about 10 percent of its income in premiums, not counting co-payments and deductibles.

No dramatic changes are in store for most people who get coverage through their jobs ? about 60 percent of those under age 65. The Congressional Budget Office says the bill wouldn't have a major effect on premiums under employer plans, now about $13,000 a year. Parents would be able to keep dependent children on their coverage longer, age 27 in the House bill.

One benefit for people with employer coverage is hard to quantify: It should be easier to get health insurance if they're laid off.
............................................................

I dont care how much it cost me as long as I can choose what I want and pay for it.

fawkers with their pre-conditions.

DTB - prepare to pay thru your black gumby nose

DTB got to come out of his pocket to help KOD
:SIB :00hour

:142smilie :142smilie
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"People who need to buy coverage as individuals and small employers are going to have a lot more in the way of attractive health insurance options, and they won't have to worry about whether their medical condition precludes them from being covered," said policy expert Paul Ginsburg, who heads the nonpartisan Center for Studying Health System Change. :00hour

The downside: "Sticker shock is going to come to some."

Get ready for a whole new set of trade-offs.

For example, people in their 50s and early 60s, when health problems tend to surface, are likely to pay less than they would now. Those in their 20s and 30s, who get the best deals today, will face higher premiums, though for better coverage.

Obama on Wednesday hailed a tentative deal by Democratic senators to give millions of Americans the option of signing up for private plans sponsored by the federal employee health system, which covers some 8 million including members of Congress. The compromise, which also offers people age 55 to 64 the option of buying into Medicare, appears to have given Democrats a way around the dealbreaker issue of a new government plan to compete with private carriers. Senators continued to debate for a 10th day, with Democrats pushing to pass the bill by Christmas. INTERACTIVE

The Senate bill will grow even longer as amendments are considered, but the basic outlines of the legislation most likely to pass are becoming clearer.

The overhaul will be phased in slowly, over the next three to four years. But eventually all Americans will be required to carry coverage or face a tax penalty, except in cases of financial hardship. Insurers won't be able to deny coverage to people with health problems, or charge them more or cut them off.

Most of the uninsured will be covered, but not all. As many as 24 million people would remain uninsured in 2019, many of them otherwise eligible Americans who still can't afford the premiums. Lawmakers propose to spend nearly $1 trillion over 10 years to provide coverage, most of the money going to help lower-income people. But a middle-class family of four making $66,000 would still have to pay about 10 percent of its income in premiums, not counting co-payments and deductibles.

No dramatic changes are in store for most people who get coverage through their jobs ? about 60 percent of those under age 65. The Congressional Budget Office says the bill wouldn't have a major effect on premiums under employer plans, now about $13,000 a year. Parents would be able to keep dependent children on their coverage longer, age 27 in the House bill.

One benefit for people with employer coverage is hard to quantify: It should be easier to get health insurance if they're laid off.
............................................................

I dont care how much it cost me as long as I can choose what I want and pay for it.

fawkers with their pre-conditions.

DTB - prepare to pay thru your black gumby nose

DTB got to come out of his pocket to help KOD
:SIB :00hour

:142smilie :142smilie

2ijkqyw1.gif


I'm Gumby proof Scott--with exception of property taxes and working on that-
-can gift inlaws i china $13,000 each a year-tax free-- every year-maybe they will buy property with it?/--(property tax there is 1.2 % at time of sale--and never again) imagine that!

In fact I've even cut Gumby out of cig taxes-and
got free gas for next 6 to 7 years at curerent price.

Funny isn't it how some do all they can to keep gov out of their lives-while other slurp the ole tit entire life.

Which brings me to your issue--

--On your Medicare @ 55--if passed there will be a buy in which will rule you out--your best bet is on their expanding Da Bases programs--Medicaid/food stamps etc
 

Mags

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For example, people in their 50s and early 60s, when health problems tend to surface, are likely to pay less than they would now. Those in their 20s and 30s, who get the best deals today, will face higher premiums, though for better coverage.

Here is the problem with this approach - putting this into reality:

Basically, what they are saying is that they will severly undercharge 50 and 60 year olds - whose health care costs are usually 6 times a 20 year olds costs. Those are the facts.

Now, that WOULD work if all 20's year olds participated. But they don't today - insurance at age 20 CURRENTLY is too expensive - and kids would rather spend their disposable income on other things. But now their premium rate would not only double, but likely triple. So, how the heck are they gonna buy insurance now? Clearly they won't.

Oh yea - they HAVE to buy insurance - or pay a $250 penalty. Well, given that they weren't buying it before, and now it will be 3 times as expensive, you can be sure that even FEWER 20+ folks will purchase it.

Pulling many of those young healthy risks out of the system will put even more upward pressure on the rates for folks in their 50's. Their rates will ALSO increase significantly. This may not happen in the 1st year of the program, but I would anticipate that by the 5th year of the program, you'll see older American's premium rates also more than double.

This is a really bad scheme and bill. Reform is needed - no doubt. But the Senators, etc really don't understand the impacts of what they are doing - things will be much worse in 5 years than they are today for the majority of Americans.

Now, the good news is that during this period, MANY people will be unhappy with the result. This will result in a huge changover in both the House and Senate, and most likely the presidency. In 4 years, the Republicans will again have the majority. And I forsee much of these being redone again - and fixed so it actually works.

In the meantime, will this bill pass? I'm not so sure. Opening up Medicare to age 50+ will upset many people - not the least of which are hospitals and physicians who HATE Medicare - as Medicare pays only 70% of the actual cost of services. Many hospitals/physicians cannot survive at those payment levels. Now, if you add more of those patients into the system, many hospitals/physicians will either: stop taking Medicare paitents (very likely) or close the doors of their hospitals (someone likely). This bill will have a tremendous amount of opposition once it comes out - which is why the details are not being discussed - they will try to pass this in the cover of night when noone is looking.

There is also a provision to force insurance companies to only have 10% of premium to cover profits, admin costs, salaries and premium taxes (which are typically 2-3% of premium). Clearly, most insurance companies will shut the doors immediately if that provision remains (I've talked to 3 CEO's of companies that I know well, and they all admitted that would be the case). So even more folks will lose their coverage - and many of them will have no option available to them, as there will be no insurer to turn to.

An additional amendment, which has widespread Democratic support, is to allow importation of prescription drugs. This would lower costs of drugs a lot in the US. The problem is, Obama has already cut a backroom deal with the drug industry - saying he won't cut their reimbursements if they agree to a $15 BILLION advertising campaign for the DEMS, starting in September of 2010 (Mid term elections). How does the Dems not agree to this provision, when it will save many Americans a lot of money?

There will be many people opposed to this bill (the public is currently 58% to 36% opposed). Can the people of this country, and the people that really understand the implications of the bill, stop it before we literally wreck our health insurance system? Nobody wants this bill, really, other than the DEMS. The only reason they want it is to try to save their political careers. But they are now damned if they do, damned if they don't. The long term consequences to this bill for the party AND for America - well, let's just say we won't have to worry about Dems being in power for a LONG LONG time if this bill passes.

The majority of Americans will be much worse off with this bill - the combination of paying higher taxes, less quality coverage, difficulty in finding a doctor or hospital to treat them, and the likelihood of losing their current insurance coverage.

There ARE ways to help the 15% of our country that does not have healthcare currently without putting the other 85% of the folks in a much worse position that they are today. Unfortunately, that is exactly what the current bill in the Senate does.

There will be chaos, and possible rioting, if this bill passes - once insurance companies start closing the doors and people do not have any options for coverage. Many people do not want Public health care - they want to keep their private plan. And they won't be able to do so.

You heard it here first. Criticize if you must, but I do understand the impacts and unintended consequences of these bills much better than many "normal" people do. I have little faith in the CBO to understand all the impacts. In fact, the unintended consequences of the approaches in the bill are impossible for ANYONE to predicts.

God help us all. :0corn
 

THE KOD

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--On your Medicare @ 55--if passed there will be a buy in which will rule you out--your best bet is on their expanding Da Bases programs--Medicaid/food stamps etc
................................................................

rule yourself out black ass gumby

you will pay my insurance with your increase in your premiums.

thanks DTB , finally your not trying to screw the goverment .

:00hour
 

Chadman

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Mags, I'm curious about one thing you mentioned. I apologize for not spending more time on your posts and discussing this - I'm coming down to the end of my semester and have had to concentrate on papers and tests. I do plan to spend some time with it.

But the one thing: that you think there will be a Republican majority after the next election, and that many of these things will be worked out or changed. If memory serves, republicans have never wanted anything to be done about healthcare, and have gone out of their way to prevent anything from being done about healthcare. They are still taking this tack. So, if you mean that they will do everything they can to undo what is proposed, and go back to unfettered skyrocketing costs for everyone, I would agree. If you are suggesting they will take an individual program approach, and try to fix or change parts of the bill, I sincerely doubt it - other than perhaps attacking tort reform and lawyers as aggressively as possible.
 

Mags

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Mags, I'm curious about one thing you mentioned. I apologize for not spending more time on your posts and discussing this - I'm coming down to the end of my semester and have had to concentrate on papers and tests. I do plan to spend some time with it.

But the one thing: that you think there will be a Republican majority after the next election, and that many of these things will be worked out or changed. If memory serves, republicans have never wanted anything to be done about healthcare, and have gone out of their way to prevent anything from being done about healthcare. They are still taking this tack. So, if you mean that they will do everything they can to undo what is proposed, and go back to unfettered skyrocketing costs for everyone, I would agree. If you are suggesting they will take an individual program approach, and try to fix or change parts of the bill, I sincerely doubt it - other than perhaps attacking tort reform and lawyers as aggressively as possible.

Chadman:

That is where I think you are wrong. Republicans realize that something needed to be done regarding healthcare. Granted, it wasn't their signature issue, as Obama made it (which will likely break him).

They just wouldn't have done it in this fashion - neither would I. Going more into debt as a country at this time, along with taking more money from Medicare - when it is arlready underfunded - is a terrible approach.

Kinda like the guy with 2 mortgages and 1 credit card maxed out - and then decides to get another credit card and max it out. Not smart.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Jul 13, 1999
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Here is the problem with this approach - putting this into reality:

Basically, what they are saying is that they will severly undercharge 50 and 60 year olds - whose health care costs are usually 6 times a 20 year olds costs. Those are the facts.

Now, that WOULD work if all 20's year olds participated. But they don't today - insurance at age 20 CURRENTLY is too expensive - and kids would rather spend their disposable income on other things. But now their premium rate would not only double, but likely triple. So, how the heck are they gonna buy insurance now? Clearly they won't.

Oh yea - they HAVE to buy insurance - or pay a $250 penalty. Well, given that they weren't buying it before, and now it will be 3 times as expensive, you can be sure that even FEWER 20+ folks will purchase it.

Pulling many of those young healthy risks out of the system will put even more upward pressure on the rates for folks in their 50's. Their rates will ALSO increase significantly. This may not happen in the 1st year of the program, but I would anticipate that by the 5th year of the program, you'll see older American's premium rates also more than double.

This is a really bad scheme and bill. Reform is needed - no doubt. But the Senators, etc really don't understand the impacts of what they are doing - things will be much worse in 5 years than they are today for the majority of Americans.

Now, the good news is that during this period, MANY people will be unhappy with the result. This will result in a huge changover in both the House and Senate, and most likely the presidency. In 4 years, the Republicans will again have the majority. And I forsee much of these being redone again - and fixed so it actually works.

In the meantime, will this bill pass? I'm not so sure. Opening up Medicare to age 50+ will upset many people - not the least of which are hospitals and physicians who HATE Medicare - as Medicare pays only 70% of the actual cost of services. Many hospitals/physicians cannot survive at those payment levels. Now, if you add more of those patients into the system, many hospitals/physicians will either: stop taking Medicare paitents (very likely) or close the doors of their hospitals (someone likely). This bill will have a tremendous amount of opposition once it comes out - which is why the details are not being discussed - they will try to pass this in the cover of night when noone is looking.

There is also a provision to force insurance companies to only have 10% of premium to cover profits, admin costs, salaries and premium taxes (which are typically 2-3% of premium). Clearly, most insurance companies will shut the doors immediately if that provision remains (I've talked to 3 CEO's of companies that I know well, and they all admitted that would be the case). So even more folks will lose their coverage - and many of them will have no option available to them, as there will be no insurer to turn to.

An additional amendment, which has widespread Democratic support, is to allow importation of prescription drugs. This would lower costs of drugs a lot in the US. The problem is, Obama has already cut a backroom deal with the drug industry - saying he won't cut their reimbursements if they agree to a $15 BILLION advertising campaign for the DEMS, starting in September of 2010 (Mid term elections). How does the Dems not agree to this provision, when it will save many Americans a lot of money?

There will be many people opposed to this bill (the public is currently 58% to 36% opposed). Can the people of this country, and the people that really understand the implications of the bill, stop it before we literally wreck our health insurance system? Nobody wants this bill, really, other than the DEMS. The only reason they want it is to try to save their political careers. But they are now damned if they do, damned if they don't. The long term consequences to this bill for the party AND for America - well, let's just say we won't have to worry about Dems being in power for a LONG LONG time if this bill passes.

The majority of Americans will be much worse off with this bill - the combination of paying higher taxes, less quality coverage, difficulty in finding a doctor or hospital to treat them, and the likelihood of losing their current insurance coverage.

There ARE ways to help the 15% of our country that does not have healthcare currently without putting the other 85% of the folks in a much worse position that they are today. Unfortunately, that is exactly what the current bill in the Senate does.

There will be chaos, and possible rioting, if this bill passes - once insurance companies start closing the doors and people do not have any options for coverage. Many people do not want Public health care - they want to keep their private plan. And they won't be able to do so.

You heard it here first. Criticize if you must, but I do understand the impacts and unintended consequences of these bills much better than many "normal" people do. I have little faith in the CBO to understand all the impacts. In fact, the unintended consequences of the approaches in the bill are impossible for ANYONE to predicts.

God help us all. :0corn

Excellent job Mags :toast:
On the chaos and rioting--add O giving EPA authority to regulate carbon dioxide-

on being scarey--the cost of these 2 catastrophes aren't even on the table and --

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30417.html

Dems to lift debt ceiling by $1.8 trillion, fear 2010 backlash

In a bold but risky year-end strategy, Democrats are preparing to raise the federal debt ceiling by as much as $1.8 trillion before New Year?s rather than have to face the issue again prior to the 2010 elections.

--the era of responsibilty/fiscal dicipline :)
 

Chadman

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Apr 2, 2000
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Chadman:

That is where I think you are wrong. Republicans realize that something needed to be done regarding healthcare. Granted, it wasn't their signature issue, as Obama made it (which will likely break him).

They just wouldn't have done it in this fashion - neither would I. Going more into debt as a country at this time, along with taking more money from Medicare - when it is arlready underfunded - is a terrible approach.

Kinda like the guy with 2 mortgages and 1 credit card maxed out - and then decides to get another credit card and max it out. Not smart.

Mags, if by "something" you mean going after the lawyers as their signature issue, I would agree with you. Otherwise, I couldn't disagree more. I don't think republicans as a group care much at all about healthcare reform, and in looking at the simplistic and unoriginal "plan" that they tossed out there for public consumption in response to the dems pretty much shows that, IMO. I don't think the state lines issue has much merit, in many respects, and it certainly would not bring costs down to any measurable degree, I don't think. It's still the same major players controlling the majority of the market, no matter what state. Certainly the big players are in all states, so not sure that's anything important. And we've seen how republicans feel about bringing in drugs from foreign countries to stimulate cost reductions - and that's even at the government level, where drastic cost reductions could be found. Other than Pawlenty, that is, who definitely was for that and bucked his own party under pressure from democrats in this state. Memory escapes me on the other so called "issues" in that republican plan. But those were the two biggest issues for republicans, and I don't see them showing me much at all - never had, and doubt they ever will. I hope they do.

I am not saying this plan is a good one, I don't understand all of it. I think it's probably too much, too big, too costly, but I do not dismiss it out of hand because of the party that brings it forward. I think all parties are looking out for themselves and their own, for sure. And I'm sure there's a lot of waste, and cost concerns for taxpayers. But speaking for myself, for the small business owner that had to take away my insurance and reduce my hours, I know it's hurting both of us. And it's hurting ALL employers that are paying exorbitant costs for their employees - those same employees that are saying how happy they are with their plans. Even though their own costs are going up each year - just not as much as their employer is taking on.

I wish there could be a give and take on these issues, and a real debate go on in our legislature. Things are so far gone at this point, that I don't think that can happen. Which is sad for all of us.

But to simply say that republicans care now and will take on real healthcare reform just doesn't seem like something based on history, common sense, and the "plan" they brought forth ONLY because the dems made it an issue. I don't see it. Attacking the lawyers? Sure. I agree that they will do that.
 

THE KOD

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An additional amendment, which has widespread Democratic support, is to allow importation of prescription drugs. This would lower costs of drugs a lot in the US. The problem is, Obama has already cut a backroom deal with the drug industry - saying he won't cut their reimbursements if they agree to a $15 BILLION advertising campaign for the DEMS, starting in September of 2010 (Mid term elections). How does the Dems not agree to this provision, when it will save many Americans a lot of money?
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Please show where you got the information about the backroom deal

what total bullchit as usual from the neocons
 

THE KOD

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The majority of Americans will be much worse off with this bill - the combination of paying higher taxes, less quality coverage, difficulty in finding a doctor or hospital to treat them, and the likelihood of losing their current insurance coverage.
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:142smilie :142smilie :142smilie

The Republican line and its not working


what a total joke
 

THE KOD

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There will be chaos, and possible rioting, if this bill passes - once insurance companies start closing the doors and people do not have any options for coverage. Many people do not want Public health care - they want to keep their private plan. And they won't be able to do so.

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thats so fawking stupid its laughable.

You think DTB and his cronies are going to riot :mj07:

the only place DTB is going is to China

but not before he sends his hundreds of thousands to his relatives there by screwing over what he pays on taxes and everything else in
his minion world.
 
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THE KOD

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Excellent job Mags :toast:
On the chaos and rioting--add O giving EPA authority to regulate carbon dioxide-
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oh damn i can hardly contain myself :142smilie


you two are two insurance peas in a pod

pulling each others puds.

well iits time to reach in to your pockets my friends and pull out what you owe me

:142smilie
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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...............................................................

thats so fawking stupid its laughable.

You think DTB and his cronies are going to riot :mj07:

the only place DTB is going is to China

but not before he sends his hundreds of thousands to his relatives there by screwing over what he pays on taxes and everything else in
his minion world.

Yep I'll probably riot and burn down my house with rest of neighborhood -

--and not sending anything to China to save taxes--the future of the $ just doesn't look as appealing as it once did--its myway of redistributing the wealth--to create more wealth--wish I had relatives in Canada or Australia -diversification ;)

I have 2 choices--I can look the escalating debt--admin raising debt ceiling by almost 2 trillion--and not even getting to big bill items yet--

--or I can listen to Gumby tell me--
"One of the central goals of this administration is restoring fiscal responsibility."

--and join you and Da Base --

Ace%20Dance.gif

:)
 
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