lawyers got some questions

shamrock

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freeze,
obviously,pr effects the institution (Duke), what does this do for the families loss? Granted no monetary settlement replaces the child life, obvious recourse is expected, pain suffering/negligence are all valid issues.

Secondly you can bet more than the insurance company will pay for types of errors. Hospital premiums being obvious.

In these types of circumstance, penalty or responsibility doesn't have to be single in nature. Dr. termination, pr, and defendant civil recourse all seem justified to me.

Unfortunately I think you are looking at these scenarios in a very subjective manner. I was in a hospital for 16 months once, I can assure you negligence & mistakes run abundant and are not the exception by any means.

I believe when you deal literally with peoples lives & well being, there must be consequences for incompetence.
 

dr. freeze

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i know....there isn't a single patient who doesn't experience some form of negligence/incompetence.....i just don't think suing is the right answer
 

THE KOD

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Magic_01 said:
I know this is off subject, but I have a lawsuit question.

Not to add, I play Collegent Golf, and season is just underway, and can't even pick a club up yet, so I won't be getting any money in the spring due to this. It has been 3 1/2 weeks since it happened, and still can not straighten or bend the arm, and I hope this does not affect my golf swing once it heals, but I know I probley won't be able to play at all this Spring, as by the time it is healed, season is almost over.

What would you guys recommend?

I would recommend that you get in touch with our chief council Edward Haskell III. Yep sounds like the big bucks to me especially
if it was sponsored event on school grounds. You may never bend that arm again all the way. Get a sling immmediately and lets get this lawsuit on the road. Does the elbow in jury make you limp at all. Perhaps crutches would also be in order. Maybe not being able to bend the elbow changed your gait and messed your knee up. You could be totally incapacitated. I smell money !

For my involvement I will collect a stipend.

Good luck I will have Haskell on this immediately.


Scott King of Dogs
 

djv

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Dont go fealing to sorry for these hospitals. Believe I said this before in another thread. But our biggest hospital in my town and it is big. Well there building another huge building 25 million worth. Our other hospital alittle smaller. There building another one two only 14 million. And yet the stay in a hospital is now down to 4 days from 9 days in 1980. And there are hospital empty space not even being used. So lets build more?
On the little girl. The items that are checked and rechecked for a transplant such as hers. Have about 5 fail safe system built in. It took some real bad work to screw that one up. And whats real sad. Some other poor sucker could have got the one she got that was wrong and maybe lived. Now they have tryed twice with her and it starting to sound like its to late. I guessa live is not worth much anymore. So the hospital can give her mom and pop 250 thoudsand and say sorry. But tomorrow will be a better day.
Oh I forgot was looking at one of my old bills from about 6 months ago. Band aid a simple band aid. Hospital buy's them in such quanties they cost a bout 2 cents each. On my bill I was charged 3 bucks. Not bad. Looks like agreat business to get into health care.
 
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Stewy

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I don't feel sorry for the hospitals, but health insurance is riduculous for self emplyed people like myself. I don't know if putting a cap on lawsuits is the correct answer. I do know there are alot of Ambulnce chasing lawyers out there looking strictly after their own interest. There is no amount of money that can fix a screw up like this one. The girls family should be taken care of for her entire life, but giving her gobs of money will just cause the insurance companies to raise their prices again.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Hey Eddie
You are misinformed as usual on insurance company's "bad investments" causing medical malpractice to raise. Why hasn't your malpractice or my errors and ommisions insurance raised the same. My premiums haven't increased in 12 years.
You might slide your bullshit by the unknowing but its flagrantly erroneous.

---and on your sidenote of attorneys getting sued, from a logical standpoint I don't think an attorney that sued an attorney would win any popularity contest with the bar.
Hmmm You know I been around this world bout 50 years an still looking for 1st ad or commercial from attorney that solicits litigation against other attorneys. Once again Eddie,your shit don't float.

Note: This is not jab at attorneys as most are upstanding and definately earn their keep. As with any proffesion,you have the good,the bad and the ugly.--and am not putting you in any catagory Eddie,just disagree on your rational.
 

fatdaddycool

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great thread, wish I had more time to reply.

Freeze,
I understand what you are trying ot say about laughing it off and the like and peers etc.... but litigation due to malpractice is not on the rise. If you check the numbers it is actually on three year decline, if you number in the number of doctors now per malpractice suit paid you would find the number in steady decline. Also, as someone in here once explained to me, malpractice seems to be a matter of "res ipsa liuqutur" as in the situation stands on its own. At least that is what I was told. If I as an aircraft mechanic install an engine on an aircraft and the plane takes off and the engine falls off at 100 feet was I negligent? The frickin engine fell off, of course I was negligent, but did I intend to be? What should my punishment be? I just killed 325 people whom have no recourse. should I be jailed, even though I have spent the last 20 years in aviation without incident? Should my license be revoked, thereby, removing me from my livelihood and forcing me to start a completely new life? Or should I be jailed? My family sent to welfare and food stamps because being a single parent, I do not think my daughter could care for herself at this point. I don't think so, but I do not think that my trial would require a jury of 12 aircraft mechanics nor would I want it too, especially if I was guilty of sabotage and the like. The evidence would be clear and my excuse or "alibi" if you will would be easily unveiled by the jury of my "peers". Also, if relieved of the charges against me, society would certainly cry foul if the jury was made up of only my "peers". The ultimate responsibilty lies in the action not the situation. We are only responsible for our actions! Not the situation we are in. I believe a doctor that carves initials in a uterus whether attached or not is sick. I think "laughing off" the actions of the carving doctor is cold and miserable. It was a purposeful act on his part and has given yet another smear to the health care we get in this country. I think if I were on a jury I would find him guilty and scar him for life, maybe then the next time he decides to put the Zoso sign of Jimmy Page on somebodys rectum he will remember what happened to him other than if he has enough money to buy a lawyer.
For the most part I agree with.....gulp.........cough....cough......gag...spit......Eddie

FDC
 
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djv

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fatdaddycool you are correct on the three year decline in litigation
The amounts awarded are also in decline. One of the cost that causes health care to go up is new equiment. These new tools of there trade are priced so dam high as my doctor told be he cant believe it.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Dogs That Bark:

More intelligent conversation from the home of Mr. MacConnell. You are 100% wrong. Increased competition amoung new carriers writing professional liability insurance in the 90's as well as poor investments by your employer is the reason Freeze and his bretheren are paying more in premiums.

More hillbilly propoganda. Total insurance company lies. You wouldn't by chance work for the great satan would you, Doggie??? Yep, I'll just bet were in good hands. All caps will do is to bail out bad business decisions by the insurance industry.

All you docs out there, please, please, keep us informed on how much your premiums drop as the insurance industry's successfull lobbyists get tort reform passed and caps instituted. More bs from the insurance industry.

ed
 

ec2285

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OK, I'm sure we all could talk about lawsuits ad nauseum. There are several reasons why the cost of malpractice insurance and physician care is so high. I would like to briefly discuss one of these as it relates to $3 band-aids from a previous post because I did not understand this either for many years. In fact until I was a resident.

I never had health insurance until I went to medical school simply because my family could not afford it. So I thought that when I paid a $100 bucks cash for an office visit thats what everyone else paid too. WRONG. Insurance companies typically only pay 40-70% of the billing rate..with wide variances on this figure based on what the service is etc. Add to this the fact that physicians and hospitals only collect 40-60% of their total billing figures. Simply because most people dont pay their bills. (I still cant believe this but I see it all the time when I look at the figures...this seems way too high a rate to not collect on....In fact 60% collection is looked on as quite good in the industry.) Now if you look at this I might have to charge you $100 bucks for an office visit that should really only cost $40. You are really paying for everyone elses services too and so that after the insurance company only gives me 40% I can still pay the bills and send the kids to college. In the previous example you are paying $3 for a band-aid to pay for your band-aid AND all the leeches who dont. Now also hospitals cannot turn people away so if you never pay your bills you can keep on going and too bad for them...some exception to this if at a private hospital they can transfer you when you are medically stable...and physicians have some wiggle room in this to as long as they do not "abandon" a patient. Now if you are like me I thought well why isn't there a break if you pay cash..I mean thats money up front..I should be able to pay what this service is really worth. Well physicians cannot charge different prices for any services they provide. If they do it is insurance/Medicare fraud. Essentially if you charge $40 to someone then you have to charge $40 for everyone then you would collect about 16-20 bucks from insurance/medicaid. Not even worth all the paperwork you'd have to fill out. So as you can see private pay people absolutely get screwed the worst.

So when all is said and done you must charge $100 so that you can get $40. This is business and so I can't say that I understand all the nuances of it as I went to school to be a physician not an accountant...but this is how it works in the real world.

I'm done rambling for now. Thanks.

EC2285
 

djv

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ec2285 yes I have seen this put as you say in bussiness week. And the number not paying is growing. But its just so easy to say. It must be all the malpractice claims. Sounds good for election smoke. Im sure the cost of health care is a combination of all things in this thread.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Now Eddie I don't believe you answered a question posed in my thread.--So I assume you agree are have no argument to the contrary.
Now about the insurance industry. They have lost money on investment as every one has that has investments tied to the market. Now on malpractice insurance.Most companies want no part of it at any premiums. It is losing proposition. St Paul used to be largest underwriter of malpractice and pulled completely out of that market. In fact I will speculate that in forseeable future there may be no carrier that will write it. Now I will educate on a simple aspect of insurance that even you can understand.It is simply risk management. If is to cover risk we can not or do not want to take chance of absorbing ourselves. Now if malpractice premiums were so far out of line the prudent thing to do from hospital standpoint is self fund it.---and they do not remotely want any part of that and the insurance companys are taking same view one by one.
Now my question to you ole wise one is:With these doctors paying such huge premiums and insurance companys still losing money on them,just whose pockets is this astronomical amount of money going in?????
If your stuck I'll give you a hint:
P.S. Make sure you report at bottom of article;)
http://www.nga.org/nga/newsRoom/1,1169,C_PRESS_RELEASE^D_4707,00.html

Now that you read it I would advise you to go blow smoke up somebody else's ass that will believe it.
 
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loophole

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i guess i'll open myself up to another mass assault and jump in with a few words on the subject of medmal litigation. it's a touchy subject for sure.

dr freeze, if i understand your position correctly, you maintain that, since doctors are human like the rest of it, just because they screw up doesn't mean they should be sued for their negligent care. surely, either you are not serious or i have misunderstood you. i assume your postion would be the same say, if you took your car to a mechanic for a tuneup and he set a valve too tightly and it blew through the engine. i'm sure you wouldn't want him to bear the cost of a new engine, would you? everyone makes mistakes, right? how about the contractor that screws up the foundation of your new home, and it collapses before you move in and your homeowners coverage kicks in. to err is human and to forgive divine, right?

obviously, when someone performs a service negligently and that negligence caused another harm, there should be accountability and compensation. in the area of medical malpractice insurance, the reasons for astronomically high premiums are complex, but in the end most of them are self inflicted by the insurance industry.

let me first say that, from a legal standpoint, medical malpractice cases are extremely complex, taxing and specialized. in all states, you must first have a medical opinion that a standard of care has been breached. next, you will be required to hire experts to review records, examine your client, and give expert testimony at trial. as the client can almost never afford to defray these cost, they are borne by the attorney. it is almost commonplace for a medmal lawyer to have $30 k or more in costs tied up in a case by the time it is resolved. now imagine the lawyer has two or three dozen of these cases pending at one time. and remember, as most lawyers take these case on a contigency fee basis, if you don't win, you get nothing and absorb the loss.

some in this thread have already alluded to this, but the primary reason medmal insurance rates are so high is the same reason health insurance for me and my wife now runs $1100 per month. this has nothing to do with malpractice awards and everything to do with the rising cost of heathcare. the bottom line is that, in the medical industry, insurance costs are never more than a single digit percentage of overall cost. that is to say that the ob/gyn who pays $150 k in annual medmal premiums is knocking down more than $1.5 mil in gross revenues. poor souls. and "bad baby" cases, or cases where a baby is permanenty damaged for life by an ob/gyn's malpractice, are by far the most expensive of cases to compensate, as they usually require a lifetime of continuous medical care for the child permanetly disabled by the doctor's negligence. dr freeze, i guess your advice to these parents is to accept it and learn to live with it, as doctors are only human.


another less discussed reason for the rise in malpractice premiums is the strategy of claims management universally employed in the industry. let me say that, in any place other than a major metropolitan area, medmal cases are hard as hell to prosecute and win. doctors still carry an aura of infallibilty with the general public, and in less populated areas, they are almost always known by the juries, and it is very difficult to persuade them that the doctors made a negligent mistake. the perception that everyone who walks into court with a medmal case gets a boatload of money is simply fantasy. medmal carriers know this, and they have almost universally adopted a policy of denying liability in almost all kinds of medmal claims except the aforementioned "bad baby" cases, where the emotional baggage of a crippled baby is too much to overcome with a jury. the result of this is almost every claim is litigated out instead of settled, because they know that most plaintiffs and plaintiff's attorneys simply cannot withstand the costs and pressures of protracted litigation. the companies will therefore spend twice as much to litigate a claim than they could have paid to settle it out of the gate.


i have never done much plaintiff's work, but i did work for a couple of years for a major insurance defense firm. i'd like to share with you all my last case conference with insurance officials and senior partners over the appeal of a rather significant seven digit verdict. during the conference, as the designated go-fer in the room, i was asked how long the appeal would take in the courts. i responded that the average lifespan of an appeal through the court of appeals at that time was about 18 months. the senior partner was then asked to estimated the attorney's fees for the appeal, and did so. as i watched in incredulity, the insurance co rep at the table then calculated the interest return on the amount to pay off the claim over the expected lifespan of the appeal. when the expected return exceeded the anticipated attorney's fees, he turned to me and told me to proceed with the appeal. the merits of the plaintiff's case played no role in the determination, only the bottom line. and by the way, this was a first party claim, that is to say, this was the plaintiff's own insurance conpany, the one he had paid premiums to for coverage, making this determination. after this meeting, i declined to work on the appeal and the next day tendered my resignation from the firm.

it gripes my ass that everyone always want to blame the lawyers until it's one of their children that gets crippled or arrested. then the tune changes.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Minions that Bark:

From your link:

The troubles stem from several factors. Insurance premiums are climbing dramatically - in some cases doubling or tripling in a year - due to sky-rocketing jury awards for medial malpractice, decisions by major carriers to stop writing liability policies, and the cyclical nature of the insurance business.

Why is it you intentionally leave out the last phrase in your analysis???? Once again,"...AND the cyclical nature of the insurance business." (emphasis added) Why do you ignore the second, but equal, reason stated in YOUR article. Whose blowing smoke???

The reality is, oh cubicalled one, that since the latest "malpractice crisis" in the 80's medical malpractice filings and awards have maintained a steady rate while malpractice premiums charged by your employers have spiked WITHOUT a similar spike in malpractice filings or verdicts.

I tend to think that the "cyclical nature of the insurance business", a polite way of saying we fuhked up investing your premiums and due to a lot of new entrants into the market our underwriting department shaved too much off Dr. Qwaks premium. Bunch of spin, Dogs and you know it.

St. Paul leaving the market is more due to Southwest Airlines, Jet Blue and America West entering the malpractice market and competing with United and American than to any convenient, and I mean convenient, scape goat (lawyers) your employers well-orchestrated, marketing plan attacks.

Loophole, well said.

Ed, the non-smoker

P.S. Fat, I am pleased that you are finally able to use the limited reason God gave you and agree with some of the verse from the Book of Eddie. However, I still consider hockey an event played by a bunch of frustrated Brian Boitano's.
 
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fatdaddycool

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Ed,
The mere fact that you know who Brian Boitano is, scares me.

First of all let not start hugging just yet there big boy. I was actually going to use the line of "The Wolf" in Pulp Fiction to Jules and Vincent after cleaning the car, but thought better of it. I do agree in principle with what you are saying and I also believe that the legal profession is unfairly stereotyped. Those circumstances were brought on by your peers though Edwardo, and some if the cheesier people in your profession, and once the public collective conscience is made up, it next to impossible to change it. People honestly don't believe that Unions are necessary these days. They think that the "Big Businesses" will take care of them. The same is with your profession, insurance, medical, all have similar problems in a litigation happy society. People are naturally greedy and seem to think that the situation bears the results, not their own actions. Insurance companies rape the the common man, and Doctor's offices. They are a necessary evil, yet I think there should be a better system of check the insurance system out. I do not think there is any lack of policy holders that have been screwed before by insurance companies. I think they are the biggest scam going, but hey I have to have it.

That being said, I still think you are a loud-mouthed brash wanna be hillbilly, with a penchant for buggering little boys. Other than that I think you are O.K. Tell your Mom I said hi, and I will talk to you later.

FDC, the agreeable
 

ec2285

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OK. I just wanted to take a minute and set the record straight on physician income. Loophole (I think) gave a figure of 1.5 Million for an OB/GYN while I am sure they may be someone out there making that, that would be the extreme MINORITY. The Average salary for OB physicians depending on region is from 180-250,000 (Gross). No chump change by any means but no 1.5 MIll either. When you consider that this costs you 12 years of higher education and essentially your whole life until your 30 I think it is more reasonable. The best paid physicians tend to be neurosurgeons who typically pull down about 400,000/yr, but I do believe their malpractice exceeds 100,000 yr. for obvious reasons. Thanks!

P.S. your Primary Care Doc makes between 100-150,000 depending on specialty and region.


EC2285
 

loophole

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ec2285, if you'll go back and read my post, i said an ob/gyn who paid $150 k in medmal premiums would have a GROSS of over $1.5 mil. the statement was meant to be a representation of the typical insurance premium ratio to gross income from practice and nothing else. as for ob/gyn incomes, i play golf with a couple from at my club that make a taxable income in the $400 k to $600 k range. they are successful in their profession but not unique.
 

djv

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Doctors income does very region to region. In my neck of the woods do to Mayo Clinic & Wisconsin Uinversity Systems. 200 to 225 non specilist for your reguler, check up doc. To 400 to 600 for the specialist. I would guess the specilist is the one that would have more suits then regular doc's. After all now days it seems they turn you over to those guys very fast. It's like the regular doc cant make a decision.
 

ec2285

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Loop:

Yes I did read your post carefully and noted you used GROSS figures which is why if you'll read mine carefully you will note i used GROSS as well. The difference we have is in figures not terms. My data is based on national averages for physicians across the country in various specialties, by your post it appears yours is based on your golfing partners.

EC2285
 
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