Religious fanaticism cannot be overcome with democracy and by creating a 'middle class.'
Bwahahahaha someone should have told the Romans that ! :mj07:
Bwahahahaha someone should have told the Romans that ! :mj07:
more should ask the hard questions of the ones that represent us.
- Thread starter shamrock
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"Religious fanaticism cannot be overcome with democracy and by creating a 'middle class.' "
Lux the history of mankind says this is an extremely stupid statement ...the number of times this has been proved wrong though out history is mind boggling. I could spend the next week 12 hours a day posting examples of this from history and not even scratch the surface ,you would do well not to quote Kosar's thoughts .....anyways any comments on my food for thought statement ?????
Lux the history of mankind says this is an extremely stupid statement ...the number of times this has been proved wrong though out history is mind boggling. I could spend the next week 12 hours a day posting examples of this from history and not even scratch the surface ,you would do well not to quote Kosar's thoughts .....anyways any comments on my food for thought statement ?????
LUX said:
Exactly which only strengthens my case ! How important do you think religion has become in the US ???? When was the last time you even cared what religion someone was save possibly since 9/11 ? In fact if that was true we would all be Muslim already a long long time ago .
Don't go there. Don't start lecturing me as if you know everything about the subject and that my opinion is somehow flawed because of your own self appointed expertise. You need to get a good grasping knowledge of what Islam is all about to know that Islam and democracy is incompatible. You must understand the theory behind Islam and democracy to know that they are incompatible. Here is a good link on Islam I suggest you read it before you dismiss my opinion.
link
Here is a link on what democracy is all about. I also suggest you read it before you make judgements about me and my opinions.
link
Islamic Democracies are an oxymoron since the faith and secular democracy are a contradiction. Why must we impose or pressure Islamic countries to adopt democracy at all. What makes democracy a more suitable system to these countries? What is the moral justification for you to impose a democratic system on a people who are used to autocratic rule? What makes you think that democracy is better than autocracy (eg kingdoms, calipahates, sheikhdoms, autocratic republics etc)? Isn't it a form of cultural arrogance too to assume that democracy would be better for these people? Democracy itself is an ideology that is foreign to these people. It is cultural arrogance at worst to assume and think that these people ought to adopt Federalism, Republicanism or democratic rule(even an Islamic one) over their traditional forms of government. Why not leave it to the people of the concerned country to choose their own political destiny through whatever form they see fit(this includes revolutions be it a peaceful or a bloody one).
Here are a few articles which argue that Islam and democracy are incompatible:
article 1
article 2
article 3
They are argued by Muslims and not Western intellectuals who do not understand Islam as much as the Muslims themselves. Have a look and notice the contradictions.
link
Here is a link on what democracy is all about. I also suggest you read it before you make judgements about me and my opinions.
link
Islamic Democracies are an oxymoron since the faith and secular democracy are a contradiction. Why must we impose or pressure Islamic countries to adopt democracy at all. What makes democracy a more suitable system to these countries? What is the moral justification for you to impose a democratic system on a people who are used to autocratic rule? What makes you think that democracy is better than autocracy (eg kingdoms, calipahates, sheikhdoms, autocratic republics etc)? Isn't it a form of cultural arrogance too to assume that democracy would be better for these people? Democracy itself is an ideology that is foreign to these people. It is cultural arrogance at worst to assume and think that these people ought to adopt Federalism, Republicanism or democratic rule(even an Islamic one) over their traditional forms of government. Why not leave it to the people of the concerned country to choose their own political destiny through whatever form they see fit(this includes revolutions be it a peaceful or a bloody one).
Here are a few articles which argue that Islam and democracy are incompatible:
article 1
article 2
article 3
They are argued by Muslims and not Western intellectuals who do not understand Islam as much as the Muslims themselves. Have a look and notice the contradictions.
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Latest artical or constitution what ever you call Iraqs pieace of paper is chit for there woman. In fact it smack so of Iran. Oh what are we creating. Good news last poll only 46% hate are ass. Just think they were going to throw kisses and flowers at our soldiers feet. And they do but the problem is thay seem to have fuses. All in whos name.
speaking of iraq women and polls -------
In a new poll out of Iraq, 88 percent of those polled say they will participate in October's scheduled vote for a new constitution. The same number say the vote should be held under current conditions in Iraq.
What's more, in the poll published in the Iraqi newspaper Al-Hayat (search), 84 percent say they support giving women the same rights and benefits as men. However, 66 percent say they want Islam to be the primary, or the only, source of legislation in Iraq. And only a quarter say they support the concept of federalism.
In a new poll out of Iraq, 88 percent of those polled say they will participate in October's scheduled vote for a new constitution. The same number say the vote should be held under current conditions in Iraq.
What's more, in the poll published in the Iraqi newspaper Al-Hayat (search), 84 percent say they support giving women the same rights and benefits as men. However, 66 percent say they want Islam to be the primary, or the only, source of legislation in Iraq. And only a quarter say they support the concept of federalism.
DTB, you seem to have a fondness for polls, is that from Clinton? j/k 
The establishment of any religion as a political ideology is undemocratic and is incompatible with the notion of democracy as stated by the author of the article that is provided in my link. Democracy means the people legislate through their representatives and a theocracy means God legislates through His prophet. Can you imagine The Ten Commandments being abolished or amended in a hypothetical fundamentalist Jewish State? This why the Jews had the wisdom to know that a fundamentalist Jewish State with Judaism as its only political ideology would not work. The conditions of society vastly differ today from the Israel of 2000 B.C.. They know darn well that Judaism and Western style democracy are incompatible and the only way of having a safer and more just system of government is by having a Western secular pluralistic democracy. This is the only way to have a meaningful system that is distinguishable from autocratic systems. Religion and democracy as we know it today cannot mutually co-exist, this is not limited to Islam, though Islam is far more incompatible with modern democracy because the religion is far more oppressive, unequal, and unjust. Islam takes tyranny to another level compared to other religions. This is the thesis of the Muslims who argue that Islam and democracy are incompatible. They are not arguing for autocratic regimes, but the establishment of a Western style democracy or the extreme opposite an autocratic theocracy. If you cannot accept this distinction and thesis, then there is no debate at all.
DOGS THAT BARK said:
The establishment of any religion as a political ideology is undemocratic and is incompatible with the notion of democracy as stated by the author of the article that is provided in my link. Democracy means the people legislate through their representatives and a theocracy means God legislates through His prophet. Can you imagine The Ten Commandments being abolished or amended in a hypothetical fundamentalist Jewish State? This why the Jews had the wisdom to know that a fundamentalist Jewish State with Judaism as its only political ideology would not work. The conditions of society vastly differ today from the Israel of 2000 B.C.. They know darn well that Judaism and Western style democracy are incompatible and the only way of having a safer and more just system of government is by having a Western secular pluralistic democracy. This is the only way to have a meaningful system that is distinguishable from autocratic systems. Religion and democracy as we know it today cannot mutually co-exist, this is not limited to Islam, though Islam is far more incompatible with modern democracy because the religion is far more oppressive, unequal, and unjust. Islam takes tyranny to another level compared to other religions. This is the thesis of the Muslims who argue that Islam and democracy are incompatible. They are not arguing for autocratic regimes, but the establishment of a Western style democracy or the extreme opposite an autocratic theocracy. If you cannot accept this distinction and thesis, then there is no debate at all.
"Democracy means the people legislate through their representatives and a theocracy means God legislates through His prophet."
Democracy DOES NOT mean that people legislate through their representatives. Democracy is one man, one vote, majority rules. We elect representatives and therefore we are a republic, albeit a democratic republic. We are not a democracy. Do we vote on everything that comes up? Of course not, but that would be a democratic method.
"Islam is far more incompatible with modern democracy.. " seems to be stretching it more than a little bit to compare Islamic religious theory with a democracy of any sort.
Democracy DOES NOT mean that people legislate through their representatives. Democracy is one man, one vote, majority rules. We elect representatives and therefore we are a republic, albeit a democratic republic. We are not a democracy. Do we vote on everything that comes up? Of course not, but that would be a democratic method.
"Islam is far more incompatible with modern democracy.. " seems to be stretching it more than a little bit to compare Islamic religious theory with a democracy of any sort.
First, I'd like to say that Islam is not just a religion, it is a political ideology since it has comprehensive laws that deal with the governance of a nation as laid down in the Quran and Hadith. Muhammad established the religion and use it to justify his political rule in Arabia. From the very beginning, Islam has been a political ideology disguised as a religion. Muhammad was a political and military ruler and ruled Arabia by imposing Islamic law. This is different from religious leaders like Jesus or the Buddha. So, if you understand the roots and origins of Islam, you know that Islam as a religion and a political ideology is inseparable.
Correct, the US is a republic rather than a true democracy like you said. In essence, we ONLY directly vote for Representatives and Senators. We do not vote on issues, we do not vote on judges, we do not vote on policies, we do not technically vote on the President. There is no reason, technically speaking, that the electoral college couldn't cast their ballots for a candidate that did NOT win the popular vote, though there would probably be pretty significant practical ramifications. There are also geographic considerations that effectively mean that my one vote in GA isn't always the exact same weight as one vote in CA.
Correct, the US is a republic rather than a true democracy like you said. In essence, we ONLY directly vote for Representatives and Senators. We do not vote on issues, we do not vote on judges, we do not vote on policies, we do not technically vote on the President. There is no reason, technically speaking, that the electoral college couldn't cast their ballots for a candidate that did NOT win the popular vote, though there would probably be pretty significant practical ramifications. There are also geographic considerations that effectively mean that my one vote in GA isn't always the exact same weight as one vote in CA.
LUX said:
Than please act as if you understand what I am saying you dont have to agree but this post shows you dont even understand what I am trying to say ......Of course Islam and democracy is incompatable geez my 8 yr old understands that !!!!!!!!!!! Thats why I want Islam out of their governments Doh !!!!!!!! The governments in place now in the mideast wont even let people consider any religion but Islam ....because the Muslim clerics are making the laws and you either follow or die ! Its amazing how hard this is for people to understand, it truley is mind boggling !
Palehose said:
lol- that's a real gem. So the way to get Islam out of the government is depose a leader who was not really religious and certainly religion played little or no role in the government and watch the Islamic radicals take over the country?
Earth to Palehose, the 'muslim clerics' did not 'make laws' in Iraq. But now they will. Great plan. Talk about 'mind-boggling.'
Doh ! how many times does this have to be explained to the "Dimpled Chad" known as "Kosar" ! really dude your short term memory is downright ridiculous ! Iraq was a perfect place to start, its smack dab in the middle and he could site the UN resolutions to do it legally ....The world has gone way too PC to just stand up and say ...."Hey time for us to do something about Islam.... being that they now killed over 2 million innocents over the last 25 to 30 years we are going on the offensive " good god the left would have made a field day out of a speech or rally cry like that ...the entire world would be in an uproar if someone actually had the balls to tell the truth. Bottom line is this is a religious issue one that started with the birth of Islam some 1600 years ago for the sole purpose of replacing Christianity .. You have been told this some 50 times now so please don't forget were I stand .
Ohhh, so THAT'S the reason now. Defied UN resolutions and saddam was a bad man. I figured you'd avoid the point of my last post and I was right.
How do you reduce Islam radicals when you put them in charge of yet ANOTHER country?
How do you reduce Islam radicals when you put them in charge of yet ANOTHER country?
Palehose said:
Hey shit for brains, you may want it, but they don't!! :jerkit:
DOGS THAT BARK said:
Ding dong...McFly...Anybody home??? Let your 8 y/o finish this debate for you because he/she probably has a clue. Debate over....
I know that dingleberry ! But it dosent mean you dont try ! Your not even worthy of your own signature good grief man ! I am sure you believed the exit polls in our last election to ya moron ! My 8 yr old would whoop your ass in a debate hands down !
