Move On / Betray Us ad in NYT

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Definitely agree with this article. Also saw where the normal price for a full page, black and white ad on a monday in the NYT is 181,000 dollars. Move On paid 65,000 dollars.


DEMOCRATS SHOULD CONDEMN MOVEON

By ED KOCH

September 13, 2007 -- David Petraeus is a highly decorated four-star general. He has been designated by the commander-in- chief to lead the young men and women who comprise the great U.S. force of 160,000 soldiers and Marines serving on the battlefields of Iraq, at great danger to themselves and to the officers who lead them.

Most soldiers, in pointing out their military honors, will cite the Combat Infantry Badge - which the general wears, as he does those medals awarded to him for personal bravery in combat.

Gen. Petraeus has sworn, as do all our military officers, to defend the Constitution of the United States and to carry out the orders given to him by the president - who, under that Constitution, is the commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces. He is trying to lead our troops to victory.

The Congress asked the general to testify before both Houses and to provide his assessment of the situation on the ground in Iraq. This he has done.

There are people in our country who have different views on what U.S. policy toward Iraq should be. MoveOn.org, a radical group of opponents of the Iraq war, took a full-page ad in The New York Times of Sept. 10, the day he was to testify before the House of Representatives. Under his photo, a banner headline stated, in a play on words, "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?"

It is vile on the part of MoveOn to charge the general with betrayal of our country, even before he testified.

The Republican candidates for president have denounced MoveOn for its unfair attack on Gen. Petraeus. Most of the Democratic presidential candidates declined to do so when asked.

While I believe we should leave Iraq immediately, I respect the opinions of those who have come to a different conclusion. We are at war. The Iraqi insurgents and al Qaeda operatives want to kill us - not only U.S. military personnel in Iraq, but Americans wherever we are, including those of us in the United States.

There are those, like President Bush, who believe we are safer fighting them there than here, where they will surely ultimately follow us.

In my opinion, the Democratic candidates declined to denounce MoveOn because they fear themselves becoming the victims of a similar onslaught from the radical left. This is a cowardly position, which I hope they will rethink. It takes more than intelligence to be a good or great president. It takes integrity and courage, as well.

This is not the only wartime foolishness perpetrated by Democrats. This silence of the Democratic presidential candidates is similar to the damage to the country perpetrated by all but one of the Democratic members of Congress from New York City. They, with the exception of Rep. Anthony Weiner, voted against an amendment by Rep. Peter King (R-Nassau) which will protect passengers boarding planes who in good faith report suspicious activities of other passengers to airline personnel and police.

The need for the King amendment arose when several air passengers reported to airline staff suspicious activity by six Muslim imams who boarded the plane in Minneapolis. The imams sued those passengers who "saw something and said something defending themselves would require them to spend many thousands of dollars.

King explained, "While boarding, passengers and flight staff witnessed these six individuals demonstrating suspicious behavior, including not sitting in their assigned seats, but rather sitting in a configuration similar to that used by the hijackers on 9/11; requesting seat-belt extenders but not using them; and speaking loudly about Osama bin Laden and the United States' role in the death of Saddam Hussein."

Under the law, of course, Move.On has the right to libel and slander the general - a public personality - with impunity, and be protected from lawsuits. Nevertheless, decent people have an obligation to come to the general's defense and denounce Move.On by no longer supporting it and withholding any future financial contributions to it.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
eventhough i didn't always agree with him, i always liked koch...he always spoke his mind, which is/was refreshing in politics...

and of course, i agree with him here....i think how the democrats are handling this article will come back to haunt them as the election progresses...

and murphy....quit wasting you money gambling on football & save it because as the election moves on the american public will see how much stronger the republican candidates are than the dems...& elect another republican in office..& you will owe me a nice dinner....
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Although in some ways I do agree with the article, to be technically correct, Move-On neither slanders nor claims the general will betray anyone. Move-On cites examples of discrepancies between what the general has claimed in the past and what other reports have proven to be different from his commentary. In many ways, this general - who essentially was rewarded with his 4th star in preparation of this kind of audience - has always been a supporter of this administration and it's policies. His actual battle experience is arguable as far as leading troops in a war footing. Many would agree that he is more of a political general than non-political. And that does open him up to a different type of scrutiny.

Not to mention, the timing of his report - appearing before the Senate on September 11?

I would agree that Move-On very much comes out in positions I find arguable, and sometimes very frustrating as a left-leaner. But Koch's outright comment that the ad CHARGES the general with betrayal. It didn't really do that. I posted the text of the ad in another thread in this forum, and re-read it before commenting here.

I wonder if some here would also denounce other mouthpieces in other situations when they clearly make assertions and analogies that are arguable, if not patently false.

I do think, however, that the reasoning behind the reduced rate could be called into question, although working in the publishing business, I do know this is done all the time.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Although in some ways I do agree with the article, to be technically correct, Move-On neither slanders nor claims the general will betray anyone. Move-On cites examples of discrepancies between what the general has claimed in the past and what other reports have proven to be different from his commentary. In many ways, this general - who essentially was rewarded with his 4th star in preparation of this kind of audience - has always been a supporter of this administration and it's policies. His actual battle experience is arguable as far as leading troops in a war footing. Many would agree that he is more of a political general than non-political. And that does open him up to a different type of scrutiny.

Not to mention, the timing of his report - appearing before the Senate on September 11?

I would agree that Move-On very much comes out in positions I find arguable, and sometimes very frustrating as a left-leaner. But Koch's outright comment that the ad CHARGES the general with betrayal. It didn't really do that. I posted the text of the ad in another thread in this forum, and re-read it before commenting here.

I wonder if some here would also denounce other mouthpieces in other situations when they clearly make assertions and analogies that are arguable, if not patently false.

I do think, however, that the reasoning behind the reduced rate could be called into question, although working in the publishing business, I do know this is done all the time.

Chad,

This advertisement was printed before Petraeus uttered one word.

I don't think at this point that I have to qualify anything about my view of this 'war', and all the excitement of drawing down the same 30,000 troops that we just added 3months ago, within the next year, is just silly.

But this advertisement should be a total embarrassment for any leading democrat, and amazingly, the uber-liberal Pelosi is the only one to even mildly discount it. They don't want to lose the support, and definitely don't want to anger the almighty Move On. They are pathetic(the candidates).

Hillary, in response to the Generals testimony, said that we need to suspend disbelief if we are to believe what he says. That's calling him a liar and de facto endorsing the ad.

I think we all know that this is and was a disaster, and the end result will be the same whenever we totally leave, but wtf.
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,910
135
63
16
L.A.
and murphy....quit wasting you money gambling on football & save it because as the election moves on the american public will see how much stronger the republican candidates are than the dems...& elect another republican in office..& you will owe me a nice dinner....

Sorry, aint happening. Enough people realize that the GOP/Bush version of "strong" is just a mirage. The nation will not endure another round of this pretend strength.

Who's your saviour, Fred Thompson?:142smilie
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,910
135
63
16
L.A.
I don't have a saviour, I just know Hillary will probably win.

You have no saviour that can beat her at the moment - not even Fox's adorable Fred Thompson.
 

bryanz

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 8, 2001
9,724
35
48
64
Syracuse ny, usa
the radical left, like the radical right will not elect the next president. if they do, not enough of us showed up. most americans don't see eye to eye with either extremist movement. I am against the execution of the ground war in iraq like most americans. like most americans that are against the occupation of iraq i have never gone to a anti war site or demonstration. this kind of stuff tryes to paint all americans that oppose this war as anti american. i don't know why this is news. the day that most politicians stop acting party first and put america ahead of their cowardly day to day activities will be news. the tit for tat stuff in this article helps no one and surely doesn't advance the american cause. this is the kind of article that keeps the masses distracted, confused and apathetic !
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
I don't have a saviour, I just know Hillary will probably win.

You have no saviour that can beat her at the moment - not even Fox's adorable Fred Thompson.

although i could probably live with hillary as our next president, when the field on both sides narrow their choices down...what kind of resume will hillary show the american public....those who are not locked into voting for their party no matter what ?
 

smurphy

cartographer
Forum Member
Jul 31, 2004
19,910
135
63
16
L.A.
what was dubya's resume? he didn't even know who musharaaf was when he was elected.

hillary will probably convey just enough confidence and knowledge to be acceptable to many centrists. ....certainly she (and everyone else running) will seem very smart and well-spoken compared to what we've endured for 7 years.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
what was dubya's resume? he didn't even know who musharaaf was when he was elected.

hillary will probably convey just enough confidence and knowledge to be acceptable to many centrists. ....certainly she (and everyone else running) will seem very smart and well-spoken compared to what we've endured for 7 years.

true....but i believe post 9/11 has changed alot of people's perpectives on issues...
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Chad,

This advertisement was printed before Petraeus uttered one word.

I don't think at this point that I have to qualify anything about my view of this 'war', and all the excitement of drawing down the same 30,000 troops that we just added 3months ago, within the next year, is just silly.

But this advertisement should be a total embarrassment for any leading democrat, and amazingly, the uber-liberal Pelosi is the only one to even mildly discount it. They don't want to lose the support, and definitely don't want to anger the almighty Move On. They are pathetic(the candidates).

Hillary, in response to the Generals testimony, said that we need to suspend disbelief if we are to believe what he says. That's calling him a liar and de facto endorsing the ad.

I think we all know that this is and was a disaster, and the end result will be the same whenever we totally leave, but wtf.

Well, I think you know how much I respect your position on most issues, but I still ask what was incorrect about the ad, when they are posing the question, essentially, about the general - in general. If you examine what role he has had in Iraq, and the eventual results, and his previous experience...then asking the question they posed before his testimony...I'm not sure what can be an issue. Unless you cater to the opinion that you can never question authority, and I would assume you of all people would not abide by that.

To think that this administration, or it's supporters (which this general DEFINITELY is) is being truthful about everything whether before, during, or after a report...is quite the leap of faith, in my opinion. And the ad merely posed the question - it didn't say anything that was not essentially documented. And it didn't say specifically that he was a liar, to get to the point.

So, until I see where the ad was wrong, or this administration can be trusted with much of anything, I will reserve judgment, and not hold them in this distasteful regard.

And, probably the biggest issue that can be looked at in this situation, is that this person has political aspirations beyond this arena, and he was in charge of this surge, and I seriously doubt hg would come out and tell us that he did a bad job. Who in their right mind would do that?
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Well, I think you know how much I respect your position on most issues, but I still ask what was incorrect about the ad, when they are posing the question, essentially, about the general - in general. If you examine what role he has had in Iraq, and the eventual results, and his previous experience...then asking the question they posed before his testimony...I'm not sure what can be an issue. Unless you cater to the opinion that you can never question authority, and I would assume you of all people would not abide by that.

To think that this administration, or it's supporters (which this general DEFINITELY is) is being truthful about everything whether before, during, or after a report...is quite the leap of faith, in my opinion. And the ad merely posed the question - it didn't say anything that was not essentially documented. And it didn't say specifically that he was a liar, to get to the point.

So, until I see where the ad was wrong, or this administration can be trusted with much of anything, I will reserve judgment, and not hold them in this distasteful regard.

And, probably the biggest issue that can be looked at in this situation, is that this person has political aspirations beyond this arena, and he was in charge of this surge, and I seriously doubt hg would come out and tell us that he did a bad job. Who in their right mind would do that?

Chad,

Thanks and I return the compliments to you.

As far as this ad goes? It was done before he said anything at all. Besides that, it takes into question his honor with a cheap shot slogan. Until something he said is proven untrue (of course, Move On started it before he even said anything), then I have a hard time jumping onboard with that crap.

There has been no commentary here on this site, for whatever reason, about what he said in two days of hearings.

I really don't think he painted much of an overall rosy picture at all. Whatever his Presidential aspirations down the road are, or are not, I don't think it's relevant to what he reported to congress.

NOW, this total crap that W threw out there tonight should be the subject of a totally different thread. If I have the time and inclination, i'll start it.

But i'll stand by my opinion that Move On is a cancer and their ad totally inappropriate.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Seems strange that so much of what the Gen was going to say slipped out to media the day before. They call that feelers. And sure enough he said what media said he would. If he's not Bush's mouth piece who is? Do I like that add. NO. Now days with all the dirt on each side of the token do you expect anything else. This demand the congress condemn it is strange. The one who wrote it and paid for it if anyone is correct person.
So 60% of us Americans don't think this plan is working. And there is new one each 10 to 12 months. Whats Next. Lets make mistake Reagan did and take sides and call it a new mission. Then see how many more good soldiers we lose.
 

The Judge

Pura Vida!
Forum Member
Aug 5, 2004
4,909
29
0
SJO
the radical left, like the radical right will not elect the next president. if they do, not enough of us showed up. most americans don't see eye to eye with either extremist movement. I am against the execution of the ground war in iraq like most americans. like most americans that are against the occupation of iraq i have never gone to a anti war site or demonstration. this kind of stuff tryes to paint all americans that oppose this war as anti american. i don't know why this is news. the day that most politicians stop acting party first and put america ahead of their cowardly day to day activities will be news. the tit for tat stuff in this article helps no one and surely doesn't advance the american cause. this is the kind of article that keeps the masses distracted, confused and apathetic !
I have to agree with every point made in this post.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,490
168
63
Bowling Green Ky
Would agree if not for one glaring diff--

The Dem candidates dance to the music of these extremes--as moveon said--we bought you-we own you.

You have full turn out of liberal candidates attending Kos Convention --another extreme org yet tremble at thought of going on most watched news/network cause they might get asked to explain their position--have yet to see the otherside dodge any network.

Agree with Matt 100% the only thing Moveon ad did was unite the left --which gained no more votes but allienated the moderates --who will determine the winner in 08.

---and Smurph--would be curious why you think Thompson is Fox's boy. I sure don't come away with that. I don't think they give him much of shot and I certainly don't. I will say I like the character he plays on TV--but can seperate tv from real life--most the time :)

--and any sane person that watched Petraeus interview and the pinko's that were escorted out has to ask themselves whose hands they want this countries security in.
 
Last edited:

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
It is strange that the Gen did not have who he reports to with him. That Admiral has different opinion. Remember 3 Gen's that did not agree with Bush have been dismissed. So he found one that says what Bush wants to here. I guess there's nothing wrong with that. But of course it does bring out speculation.
 

The Sponge

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2006
17,263
97
0
Whats wrong with the article Kosar you simpleton? LIke always after a few days we now hear that the generals own boss just called him a kiss ass. What if they said this same thing about Colin Powel a few years ago? Im sure Fox would have directed you to hate that article also. Stop being a freaking pigeon until all the facts are out. Move on is a bunch of guys that are not a bunch of pussies and the right hates them and they get pigeons like you to follow suit. Pass the pigeon dip.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top