north korea successfully tests nukes...

[kosar]

Just something else to consider. There has been no independant verification of this test so far. I know, I know, NK is secretive and all that so how could anybody verify?

But how easy would it be for Kim to 'say' they had a test and send the world into a frenzied panic(not just you, Weasel). And without credible independant verification proving it *did* happen, how the hell could anybody prove that it *didn't* happen.

So it's out there now and nothing Kim might do/say would surprise me. I would be more than a little surprised if he had a nuke that he could deliver to South Korea, much less Japan and definitely not America.

 

[smurphy]

My solution is simply more talks. We have to have open communication. We have to figure out a way to get the world on our side more. If that means apologizing for calling them "evil" then we have to do that. We accomplish nothing with the cowboy attitude. We cannot simply delete everyone we don't like.

Before someone brings appeasement and Hitler, I pre-emptively tell that person to STFU. This is here and now and resembles nothing from the past. We simply HAVE TO negotiatie and talk with this guy. There is no way around that.

 

[Chadman]

Since you repeated yourself (gw) with your comment that I said the Axis of Evil comment caused all this, I guess you believe I thought that, since I didn't say it. I merely point out that Bush said they needed to be prevented from doing it, he said he would do all he could to prevent it, and it happened. And I tie that to Iran, who NK helped proliferate. No more a stretch than this administration and the "evidence" of the Iraq situation that seems to be a non-problem for the apologists here.

I'm not spinning anything more than what it is, man. If you ask to be measured, then you have to accept the ruler upside your head from time to time.

What we have here, is a failure. Not a failure to communicate...just a failure.

 

[kosar]

said the Axis of Evil comment caused all this, I guess you believe I thought that, since I didn't say it.

Unless it was a huge series of coincidences, that comment definitely set things moving forward in a big way. Weasel apparently thinks it was no big deal.

Of course it would be no big deal. TO US!

Here we go again. People thought it was silly when the Arab world goes nuts when female guards have male prisoners on a leash and now it's 'unbelieveable' that '3 words' can set somebody off. 'Face' is huge in Asia and that was a big, public slap. And the refusal of our government to speak with NK bilaterally. Same thing. Awwwwww, poor dictator. Right? Well, here we are.

There is a whole world out there which doesn't necessarily share our sensibilities, yet many of us, most importantly this admin, refuse to account for this as we act and speak.

 

[kosar]

kosar....."Hey, who knows what thought process that nut Kim uses, but here is what we know:"

NO....that`s not what we know...what we know is that no one...not the iaea.....has ever had unfettered access to north korea.....

Uhhh, yes, actually the things I listed ARE things that we know. I never said the iaea had 'unfettered access', and none of the things that I listed THAT WE KNOW require unfettered access.

 

[kosar]

Let's see, it's Clintons fault to a greater degree than Bush and any other admin:

sheesh...it`s not"all" clinton...although he`s culpable...as is bush to a lesser extent....as are previous administrations...

Even though it's mostly Clinton's fault, there really is nothing any admin can do:

bluntly,n. korea is holding a very large segment of s. korea's population hostage....and i don`t know what ANY administration can do about it...

But man, you're just getting sick of this blaming, even though you were the first in the thread to start with it:

blaming...politicizing.....you`re pathetic...c`mon,guys...

you moron

I couldn't agree more.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Could lay the blame on Bill and M Notsobright but were a couple of methods to try back then they chose one it didn't work--but looking at it now don't think anything we'd have done would have made any diff--the man is a lunitic with tunnel vision. I didn't care bout funding it with our tax dollars but lets learn and move on.
NK wants to get us on one on onetalks and glad no ones biting--cause at some point and time china and to smaller extent russia will be determining factor. Don't know about chinese officials but the chinese people hate NK 2nd only to japan. If not for china nk would starve and is all day job defending their borders from mass transit of starving NK's.
I believe if china gets behind santions it will bring them to their knees in one year.Don't see how a nation can watch their families starve-have no work-no future and know of the prosperity that abound in SK. They GOT TO KNOW--theres a better way and who is responsible for their plight.
Catch 22 no one is thinking about is what happens if NK does oust Kim. Can you imagine the mass exodus of NK's into SK and china--as Kim and his military are primary gate keepers as it stands.

 

[bryanz]

"paging madeline albright"...."paging hans brix"......

Why are you paging anyone other than your boy Bush and the Boys & Condi. They are in their second term, why is this thing not handled ? Their is no diplomacy any where in the world with this crew. Why is it that you are so quick to point the finger ?

 

[bryanz]

:mj01:

the headlines...even in the liberal msm read...north korea defies "the world".....not bushitler....

you`re spinning....

he`s a legit danger to sell the technology to less than desirable elements......that may wish to do us harm.....

this is the guy that`s lobbing rockets over japan....

he`s obviously irrational and poses a grave threat to japan and south korea....and could use the weapon as leverage to extort aid and favorable treatment from these countries and the world.....

and to top it all off....the salt in the wound...now the grass and bark that the north korean people eat will be radioactive...(warning...warning:libs,that was intended as dark humor..do not take literally)......

the real question in stevie`s mind isn`t the potential for catastrophe.....the destabilization of the region with practically every country inevitably looking to nuke up.....

for the stevie`s of the world it`s,...."what did hastert know about this....and when did he know it?"

SO lets invade today. What are we waiting for ? NOTE TO GW : the pounding of the head does not seem to be working, what is it with you guys ? If something doesn't work, why not try a different approach ? We have GW in the White House staying the course and we have GW ,who knows where, banging his head on a computer table. Both with similar results.

 

[The Sponge]

My solution is simply more talks. We have to have open communication. We have to figure out a way to get the world on our side more. If that means apologizing for calling them "evil" then we have to do that. We accomplish nothing with the cowboy attitude. We cannot simply delete everyone we don't like.

Before someone brings appeasement and Hitler, I pre-emptively tell that person to STFU. This is here and now and resembles nothing from the past. We simply HAVE TO negotiatie and talk with this guy. There is no way around that.

Smurph the only way the world will ever be on our side again is if this collection of clowns get out of office. We can't even swallow our pride anymore and send these guys to talk because no one will ever take us seriously. I tell you 08 can't come soon enough. Dem or Republican it can't get any worse than this.

 

[The Sponge]

I saw a little of this on msnbc last night and they wouldn't commit to the story and said they needed a bit more time. I went over to Fox and by what they were saying I thought the nuke went off in my back yard. Here comes the fear game again.

 

[smurphy]

--the man is a lunitic with tunnel vision.

There seems to be a lot of that going around these days.

 

[gardenweasel]

I can tell you what the answer *isn't*, and that's needlessly provoking that nutcase right about the time you're about to obliterate one of his 'axis of evil' brothers.

Of course we can't invade(just that concept itself is absurd, as WE wouldn't be invading, it would be the ROK army), but the net result of 'surgical strikes' would be the same. The north would almost certainly invade SK if we do this. You speak of '10's of thousands of civilians killed?' Try 100's of thousands to a million civilians killed in SK alone in any sort of protracted war.

I agree with your overall theme (as best as I can understand it), that there is no good solution, and there never has been, and no military option, period. There was no military solution before they (apparently) have a nuke and there's none after. Not without sending Seoul back to the 1930's.

And stop throwing that crap in there about 'that's why we had to go get Saddam.' Nobody credible thought he had nukes, or was even close to having them and please don't cite Osirak in 1981 for the 50th time.

While we're rebuilding schools that we blew up in Iraq, the rest of the world must be laughing at us. Iran definitely is.

...........................

kosar.."I can tell you what the answer *isn't*"...

uhh...we already knew that...you`re a liberal...

and i agree..that by "political" standards the clinton/albright doctrine was a "SUCCESS".... "politically",that is...., which is the only metric the democrats use for anything....

eah, it was a success...just like iraq and saddam...

how was it a "SUCCESS"?..

president clinton "SUCCESSFULLY" kicked the problem on down the road for republicans to have to deal with....lol

i was trying to be nice,but truthfully,bush and clinton don`t share blame equally for north korea....it falls clearly in clinton/albright`s lap.....

unless somebody can find a link that states that bush/cheney provided lil` kim with $4 billion worth of light water reactors....but,hey,it`s bushitler`s fault they conducted a nuclear test...because he said,"the axis of evil".....

i admit..it is shocking that kim put one over on carter and clinton/not-so-bright.....:142smilie

ditch water dumb....



btw.....EVERYBODY believed that saddam had weapons..or was trying to procure them.....

haven`t you read clinton`s speeches?....kerry`s comments?...practically every democrat drawing breath?...saying how dangerous saddam was....the clinton bill that was passed by congress on regime change in iraq?.....

well over a decade of u.n. attempted inspections...resolutions?

you slept through all that?...

do you remember:
the internet ?
cell phones ?
wireless internet ?
red bull ?

just checking...

let`s count the successes of the clinton/gore/not-so-bright administration....their "security team".....

1) gave nuclear technology to north korea for peaceful purposes only, on their solemn pledge to not use that knowledge to develop wmd....

dohhhh!.

2) suppressed every effort to create a national missile defense.....

dohhhh!

3) cut the size and combat readiness of our armed forces.....

dohhh!

4)avoided any serious pursuit of al qaeda, viewing islamic terrorism as a policing matter rather than as a military threat....and for dessert...

5) bombed the bejesus out of waco....


dohhhh! dohhhh!....



and then there`s sandy burglar and the underwear document fiasco...which has never been explained to any rational conclusion....and now those few documents that were returned to the national archives,must be stored in an "odor-eater lined" vault.......

shameful....:nono:


look...the fact is that bush inherited the office of president of the united states having to deal with the after-effects of 8 years of disastrous policy planning....and that`s lamentable....

but,he volunteered for the position knowing the mess that was left him.....and it is now his responsiblity......

i agree on that...not with the revisionist history....

:SIB ...thank me very much...

 

[gardenweasel]

and maybe we need to give kim jong il a break......cut him some slack.....

life must be hell when you need platform shoes to look madeleine albright in the eye. ..

right,partner?

 

[gardenweasel]

""Satellite photographs reportedly also show that the atomic reactors have no attached power lines, which they would have if used for electric power generation. Some experts and reports from North Korean defectors point to possibilities that North Korea also may have other, hidden nuclear weapons facilities. Bakchon, 60 miles north of Pyongyang, has been cited as one such site. Hans Blix and a number of U.S. and South Korean experts have speculated that North Korea might have built a hidden "pilot" plutonium reprocessing laboratory as a prototype for the large reprocessing installation.
Persons interviewed for this study believe that North Korea has been constructing the two reactors and the apparent reprocessing plant with its own resources and technology. It is believed that Kim Chong-il, the son and successor of President Kim Il-sung who died in July 1994, directs the program, and that the military and the Ministry of Public Security (North Korea's version of the KGB) implement it. North Korea reportedly has about 3,000 scientists and research personnel devoted to the Yongbyon program. Many have studied nuclear technology (though not necessarily nuclear weapons production) in the Soviet Union and China and reportedly Pakistan. The training of nuclear scientists at North Korean universities reportedly is intense. North Korea has uranium deposits, estimated at 26 million tons. North Korea is believed to have one uranium producing mine.""



:SIB

 

[smurphy]

What do you propose be done, Weasel?

 

[kosar]

...........................

kosar.."I can tell you what the answer *isn't*"...

uhh...we already knew that...you`re a liberal...

and i agree..that by "political" standards the clinton/albright doctrine was a "SUCCESS".... "politically",that is...., which is the only metric the democrats use for anything....

eah, it was a success...just like iraq and saddam...

how was it a "SUCCESS"?..

president clinton "SUCCESSFULLY" kicked the problem on down the road for republicans to have to deal with....lol

i was trying to be nice,but truthfully,bush and clinton don`t share blame equally for north korea....it falls clearly in clinton/albright`s lap.....

unless somebody can find a link that states that bush/cheney provided lil` kim with $4 billion worth of light water reactors....but,hey,it`s bushitler`s fault they conducted a nuclear test...because he said,"the axis of evil".....

i admit..it is shocking that kim put one over on carter and clinton/not-so-bright.....:142smilie

ditch water dumb....



btw.....EVERYBODY believed that saddam had weapons..or was trying to procure them.....

haven`t you read clinton`s speeches?....kerry`s comments?...practically every democrat drawing breath?...saying how dangerous saddam was....the clinton bill that was passed by congress on regime change in iraq?.....

well over a decade of u.n. attempted inspections...resolutions?

you slept through all that?...

do you remember:
the internet ?
cell phones ?
wireless internet ?
red bull ?

just checking...

let`s count the successes of the clinton/gore/not-so-bright administration....their "security team".....

1) gave nuclear technology to north korea for peaceful purposes only, on their solemn pledge to not use that knowledge to develop wmd....

dohhhh!.

2) suppressed every effort to create a national missile defense.....

dohhhh!

3) cut the size and combat readiness of our armed forces.....

dohhh!

4)avoided any serious pursuit of al qaeda, viewing islamic terrorism as a policing matter rather than as a military threat....and for dessert...

5) bombed the bejesus out of waco....


dohhhh! dohhhh!....



and then there`s sandy burglar and the underwear document fiasco...which has never been explained to any rational conclusion....and now those few documents that were returned to the national archives,must be stored in an "odor-eater lined" vault.......

shameful....:nono:


look...the fact is that bush inherited the office of president of the united states having to deal with the after-effects of 8 years of disastrous policy planning....and that`s lamentable....

but,he volunteered for the position knowing the mess that was left him.....and it is now his responsiblity......

i agree on that...not with the revisionist history....

:SIB ...thank me very much...

Thanks for finally eschewing the 'hey, I thought Clinton did a decent job' facade that you've tried to put up for years. Anybody with a pulse knew that was bullshit.

As with most threads in here, it is turning into a referendum on Clinton. Not just Clinton in relation to the specific topic at hand, but his whole presidency.

Waco, Elian Gonzales, Sandy Berger. We know. Those were bad things. A disgrace, actually. Let's discuss things that have happened within the last ten years, if we might.

Anyways, as usual, your sprawling post contains a ton of misinformation and lies, but i'm already over my 'correct weasels nonsense' free minutes for the month and spending more time on that would get expensive.

So in one post you say that no administration could have done anything and now you rant that it basically was all Clintons fault.

Will be interesting to see how our Dear Leader 'handles' NK. But even if he starts WW3, i'm sure you will say that he do good.

Be consistent, at least, grasshopper.

 

[bryanz]

""Satellite photographs reportedly also show that the atomic reactors have no attached power lines, which they would have if used for electric power generation. Some experts and reports from North Korean defectors point to possibilities that North Korea also may have other, hidden nuclear weapons facilities. Bakchon, 60 miles north of Pyongyang, has been cited as one such site. Hans Blix and a number of U.S. and South Korean experts have speculated that North Korea might have built a hidden "pilot" plutonium reprocessing laboratory as a prototype for the large reprocessing installation.
Persons interviewed for this study believe that North Korea has been constructing the two reactors and the apparent reprocessing plant with its own resources and technology. It is believed that Kim Chong-il, the son and successor of President Kim Il-sung who died in July 1994, directs the program, and that the military and the Ministry of Public Security (North Korea's version of the KGB) implement it. North Korea reportedly has about 3,000 scientists and research personnel devoted to the Yongbyon program. Many have studied nuclear technology (though not necessarily nuclear weapons production) in the Soviet Union and China and reportedly Pakistan. The training of nuclear scientists at North Korean universities reportedly is intense. North Korea has uranium deposits, estimated at 26 million tons. North Korea is believed to have one uranium producing mine.""



:SIB

If all this true and I'm sure it is, we must have known this information for some time. Why the overreaction by you and your friends @ the NY TIMES ? The competent Bush administration is in their second term and I'm sure they have a multi layered plan to fix the mess that Clinton left. Are you sure you want to trust the satellite pictures ? Can we believe that this intelligence is valid this time ?

 

[bryanz]

If you focus the big picture, do you have it focused ? How could this administration have bogged down so much of our resources ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ, when they must have seen the threats from N Korea and Iran ? It does not make much sense to me, I'm sure it does to you.

 

[bryanz]

Our Foreign Policy shows that this administration does not understand the dimension of the threat we face and how they have used our resources to supposedly protect us looks sophomoric and short sided. Talk about being blind sided or leaving the back door open. We look like fools to anyone that understands the art of war.