I watched the video.What I got out of it was someone who had a hard time expressing or for that matter explaining why extreme Muslims hate America.
If he was trying to explain that we brought 911 on ourselves he did a piss-poor job doing it.
Not Guilty
- Thread starter DOGS THAT BARK
- Start date
I watched the video.What I got out of it was someone who had a hard time expressing or for that matter explaining why extreme Muslims hate America.
If he was trying to explain that we brought 911 on ourselves he did a piss-poor job doing it.
How do we prevent democracy in the region meaning the middle east??I think it's quite the opposite.Iran suppressed there own people in the last election.
We took Saddam out of power.(Granted the place is still a mess,but better off I believe than before).Kuwait and the Saudis are are allies.
Other nations in that region are living there own way like Syria for instance.That's are fault????
He blames Israel for suppressing there neighbors??There lucky they have a place on God's chosen people's land.
This guy is out of his mind.MIND!We can't control one countries way of thinking that's wrong to blame us for that.I disagree with is views.Plain and simple.
2005 Article/Here is some real insite.
2005 Article/Here is some real insite.
Why Do They Hate Us? Not Because of Iraq
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By OLIVIER ROY
Published: July 22, 2005
Paris
WHILE yesterday's explosions on London's subway and bus lines were thankfully far less serious than those of two weeks ago, they will lead many to raise a troubling question: has Britain (and Spain as well) been "punished" by Al Qaeda for participating in the American-led military interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan? While this is a reasonable line of thinking, it presupposes the answer to a broader and more pertinent question: Are the roots of Islamic terrorism in the Middle Eastern conflicts?
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Forum: Op-Ed Contributors
If the answer is yes, the solution is simple to formulate, although not to achieve: leave Afghanistan and Iraq, solve the Israel-Palestine conflict. But if the answer is no, as I suspect it is, we should look deeper into the radicalization of young, Westernized Muslims.
Conflicts in the Middle East have a tremendous impact on Muslim public opinion worldwide. In justifying its terrorist attacks by referring to Iraq, Al Qaeda is looking for popularity or at least legitimacy among Muslims. But many of the terrorist group's statements, actions and non-actions indicate that this is largely propaganda, and that Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine are hardly the motivating factors behind its global jihad.
First, let's consider the chronology. The Americans went to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, not before. Mohamed Atta and the other pilots were not driven by Iraq or Afghanistan. Were they then driven by the plight of the Palestinians? It seems unlikely. After all, the attack was plotted well before the second intifada began in September 2000, at a time of relative optimism in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.
Another motivating factor, we are told, was the presence of "infidel" troops in Islam's holy lands. Yes, Osama Bin Laden was reported to be upset when the Saudi royal family allowed Western troops into the kingdom before the Persian Gulf war. But Mr. bin Laden was by that time a veteran fighter committed to global jihad.
He and the other members of the first generation of Al Qaeda left the Middle East to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980's. Except for the smallish Egyptian faction led by Ayman al-Zawahiri, now Mr. bin Laden's chief deputy, these militants were not involved in Middle Eastern politics. Abdullah Azzam, Mr. bin Laden's mentor, gave up supporting the Palestinian Liberation Organization long before his death in 1989 because he felt that to fight for a localized political cause was to forsake the real jihad, which he felt should be international and religious in character.
From the beginning, Al Qaeda's fighters were global jihadists, and their favored battlegrounds have been outside the Middle East: Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and Kashmir. For them, every conflict is simply a part of the Western encroachment on the Muslim ummah, the worldwide community of believers.
Second, if the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine are at the core of the radicalization, why are there virtually no Afghans, Iraqis or Palestinians among the terrorists? Rather, the bombers are mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa, Egypt and Pakistan - or they are Western-born converts to Islam. Why would a Pakistani or a Spaniard be more angry than an Afghan about American troops in Afghanistan? It is precisely because they do not care about Afghanistan as such, but see the United States involvement there as part of a global phenomenon of cultural domination.
What was true for the first generation of Al Qaeda is also relevant for the present generation: even if these young men are from Middle Eastern or South Asian families, they are for the most part Westernized Muslims living or even born in Europe who turn to radical Islam. Moreover, converts are to be found in almost every Qaeda cell: they did not turn fundamentalist because of Iraq, but because they felt excluded from Western society (this is especially true of the many converts from the Caribbean islands, both in Britain and France). "Born again" or converts, they are rebels looking for a cause. They find it in the dream of a virtual, universal ummah, the same way the ultraleftists of the 1970's (the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Italian Red Brigades) cast their terrorist actions in the name of the "world proletariat" and "Revolution" without really caring about what would happen after.
It is also interesting to note that none of the Islamic terrorists captured so far had been active in any legitimate antiwar movements or even in organized political support for the people they claim to be fighting for. They don't distribute leaflets or collect money for hospitals and schools. They do not have a rational strategy to push for the interests of the Iraqi or Palestinian people.
Even their calls for the withdrawal of the European troops from Iraq ring false. After all, the Spanish police have foiled terrorist attempts in Madrid even since the government withdrew its forces. Western-based radicals strike where they are living, not where they are instructed to or where it will have the greatest political effect on behalf of their nominal causes.
The Western-based Islamic terrorists are not the militant vanguard of the Muslim community; they are a lost generation, unmoored from traditional societies and cultures, frustrated by a Western society that does not meet their expectations. And their vision of a global ummah is both a mirror of and a form of revenge against the globalization that has made them what they are.
Olivier Roy, a professor at the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences, is the author of "Globalized Islam."
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2005 Article/Here is some real insite.
Why Do They Hate Us? Not Because of Iraq
* Sign In to E-Mail This
By OLIVIER ROY
Published: July 22, 2005
Paris
WHILE yesterday's explosions on London's subway and bus lines were thankfully far less serious than those of two weeks ago, they will lead many to raise a troubling question: has Britain (and Spain as well) been "punished" by Al Qaeda for participating in the American-led military interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan? While this is a reasonable line of thinking, it presupposes the answer to a broader and more pertinent question: Are the roots of Islamic terrorism in the Middle Eastern conflicts?
Skip to next paragraph
Readers
Forum: Op-Ed Contributors
If the answer is yes, the solution is simple to formulate, although not to achieve: leave Afghanistan and Iraq, solve the Israel-Palestine conflict. But if the answer is no, as I suspect it is, we should look deeper into the radicalization of young, Westernized Muslims.
Conflicts in the Middle East have a tremendous impact on Muslim public opinion worldwide. In justifying its terrorist attacks by referring to Iraq, Al Qaeda is looking for popularity or at least legitimacy among Muslims. But many of the terrorist group's statements, actions and non-actions indicate that this is largely propaganda, and that Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine are hardly the motivating factors behind its global jihad.
First, let's consider the chronology. The Americans went to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, not before. Mohamed Atta and the other pilots were not driven by Iraq or Afghanistan. Were they then driven by the plight of the Palestinians? It seems unlikely. After all, the attack was plotted well before the second intifada began in September 2000, at a time of relative optimism in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.
Another motivating factor, we are told, was the presence of "infidel" troops in Islam's holy lands. Yes, Osama Bin Laden was reported to be upset when the Saudi royal family allowed Western troops into the kingdom before the Persian Gulf war. But Mr. bin Laden was by that time a veteran fighter committed to global jihad.
He and the other members of the first generation of Al Qaeda left the Middle East to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980's. Except for the smallish Egyptian faction led by Ayman al-Zawahiri, now Mr. bin Laden's chief deputy, these militants were not involved in Middle Eastern politics. Abdullah Azzam, Mr. bin Laden's mentor, gave up supporting the Palestinian Liberation Organization long before his death in 1989 because he felt that to fight for a localized political cause was to forsake the real jihad, which he felt should be international and religious in character.
From the beginning, Al Qaeda's fighters were global jihadists, and their favored battlegrounds have been outside the Middle East: Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and Kashmir. For them, every conflict is simply a part of the Western encroachment on the Muslim ummah, the worldwide community of believers.
Second, if the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine are at the core of the radicalization, why are there virtually no Afghans, Iraqis or Palestinians among the terrorists? Rather, the bombers are mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa, Egypt and Pakistan - or they are Western-born converts to Islam. Why would a Pakistani or a Spaniard be more angry than an Afghan about American troops in Afghanistan? It is precisely because they do not care about Afghanistan as such, but see the United States involvement there as part of a global phenomenon of cultural domination.
What was true for the first generation of Al Qaeda is also relevant for the present generation: even if these young men are from Middle Eastern or South Asian families, they are for the most part Westernized Muslims living or even born in Europe who turn to radical Islam. Moreover, converts are to be found in almost every Qaeda cell: they did not turn fundamentalist because of Iraq, but because they felt excluded from Western society (this is especially true of the many converts from the Caribbean islands, both in Britain and France). "Born again" or converts, they are rebels looking for a cause. They find it in the dream of a virtual, universal ummah, the same way the ultraleftists of the 1970's (the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Italian Red Brigades) cast their terrorist actions in the name of the "world proletariat" and "Revolution" without really caring about what would happen after.
It is also interesting to note that none of the Islamic terrorists captured so far had been active in any legitimate antiwar movements or even in organized political support for the people they claim to be fighting for. They don't distribute leaflets or collect money for hospitals and schools. They do not have a rational strategy to push for the interests of the Iraqi or Palestinian people.
Even their calls for the withdrawal of the European troops from Iraq ring false. After all, the Spanish police have foiled terrorist attempts in Madrid even since the government withdrew its forces. Western-based radicals strike where they are living, not where they are instructed to or where it will have the greatest political effect on behalf of their nominal causes.
The Western-based Islamic terrorists are not the militant vanguard of the Muslim community; they are a lost generation, unmoored from traditional societies and cultures, frustrated by a Western society that does not meet their expectations. And their vision of a global ummah is both a mirror of and a form of revenge against the globalization that has made them what they are.
Olivier Roy, a professor at the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences, is the author of "Globalized Islam."
Sign in to RecommendMore Articles in Opinion >
Inside NYTimes.com
Charles Taylor's
Rise and Fall
The Ghost in the
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Making of a Toddler Supergroup
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Past 24 Hours |Past 7 Days
1. 10 Days in a Carry-On
2. Tell-All Generation Learns to Keep Things Offline
3. The Moral Life of Babies
4. Paul Krugman: Sex & Drugs & the Spill
5. Guest-Teaching Chinese, and Learning America
Go to Complete List
1. A Sampling of Chinglish
2. Nicholas D. Kristof: New Alarm Bells About Chemicals and Cancer
3. Shanghai Is Trying to Untangle the Mangled English of Chinglish
4. Letters
op
Tramp... you were right. Attempting to have a discussion of any substance with our friend Rusty is a complete waste of time.
How anyone could watch Noam's explanation for why there's a campaign of hatred being waged against the U.S. by Islamic Fundamentalists in the Middle East and not understand it is beyond me.
I've gotta say though that Rusty's response wasn't "completely" unexpected because following and comprehending intellectual speakers like Noam Chomsky can be very challenging for slow learners (you know... morons).
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The policies we have are to stick our noses in their business. How would you like it if I came to your trailer and told you that I am now going to tell you what to do and when to do it? Why don't you understand that? Is it really that difficult?
They guy you are mocking knows the difference between their and there. So you need to shut the fuck up.
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Its just amazing. The thing that bothers me is that I really believe that Rusty thinks he has at least average intelligence. I really wish I could have a chat with him one day. If anything it would be eye-opening.
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I'll go and take a look at it. I'm out for the next few hours. I've got a real busy two weeks coming up but i'll look at it.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a guy like Rusty is unfamiliar with the concept of blowback after I was reminded by your clip that Rudy Giulliani had to be schooled by Ron Paul on it as recently as 2008.
Trench
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I don't understand why its so hard for Rusty. If someone keeps fucking with you, of course they are gonna get mad. A five year old can figure that out. WTF.
And a response to Oliver's article....cricket,cricket,cricket.............................................................................................................................................................
I read the article. It supports what the rest of us have been saying throughout this thread. You're the only one who doesn't seem to get it.
Roy's article supports the only logical explanation for "why they hate us": Western military, economic and political interference and exploitation of the Middle East and its resources... but it falls short.
Where it falls short is it fails to explain the long history of Western encroachment and interference in the Middle East going back 60 years or more. So it doesn't really explain the long buildup of anti-Western, and in particular, anti-American sentiment over generations in the Middle East. Is it any wonder that after 60 years of Western interference and exploitation of the Middle East, the resentment has evolved into outright hatred of Western Imperialism and that it extends to expatriated Muslims around the world?
This is what Noam Chomsky was saying and it's what Ron Paul was referring to as blowback.
If you're unable to grasp these concepts, you're not alone. Rudy Giulianni seems to be having trouble with it too. :142smilie
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you cuz there ain't a snowball's chance in hell you're ever gonna believe anything but the Dubya "They hate us for our freedom" excuse.
- Feb 26, 2001
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...............................................................
:142smilie :142smilie
the muslims hate us because we are free.
Only George W could have come up with that or maybe Rusty.
what a joke that guy and President Cheney were
Now your twisting the truth for your own agenda.
You guys are all crying about USA bullying everyone else in the middle east and in turn that's why they hate us.
I give you an article that states the 2major, MAJOR operations(Iraq and Afghanistan) in the last decade were AFTER 9/11 and you still don't get it??
The article states that middle eastern trouble spots like Iraq,Afghanistan,Israel, have nothing to do with the terrorist agenda .If that's so what's the reason for the hate.
They use "puppets" that do there dirty work even our own people without knowing or having a justified reason to pull off a attack.There outcasts just like you.You are a terrorist.
The only regret I have is that after the 1st WTC bombing and the bombing of the USS Cole WE DIDN'T DO MORE RIGHT THEN.Maybe 9/11 would of never happened if we did.GOD BLESS AMERICA!!:00x21
Rusty,
Have you been to that region ?
Do you know, I mean really know and understand people from that part of the world?
Have you been to that region ?
Do you know, I mean really know and understand people from that part of the world?
Sorry we can't all be like you ill. been in wars,you been there you know everything @.We were to passive against these morons.Do you know these people??I mean the jihads??
I didn't say you had to be "Ass in the grass" grunt to understand what is going on, why the Islamic Fundies are bent at us.
Like Dr. Ron Paul said, we would blow a shit ring if the Chinese set up camp in Mexico, wouldn't we?
Look in Arizona right now if you want a reality check ! The illegals are essentially "Occupying Forces" are they not?
And yes, I do have a close and personal view of how they think and believe.
You are racial profiling an entire group of people based on a few radical religious zealots. It would be the same as profiling all the hispanics in my AO after watching the evening news or all the blacks in Detroit or Chicago. See, I just profiled those 2 cities.
I don't think you will ever get it :shrug:
When I go to the range, which is quite often, there are all kinds of people popping off rounds.
She was there yesterday.
Like Dr. Ron Paul said, we would blow a shit ring if the Chinese set up camp in Mexico, wouldn't we?
Look in Arizona right now if you want a reality check ! The illegals are essentially "Occupying Forces" are they not?
And yes, I do have a close and personal view of how they think and believe.
You are racial profiling an entire group of people based on a few radical religious zealots. It would be the same as profiling all the hispanics in my AO after watching the evening news or all the blacks in Detroit or Chicago. See, I just profiled those 2 cities.
I don't think you will ever get it :shrug:
When I go to the range, which is quite often, there are all kinds of people popping off rounds.
She was there yesterday.
- Feb 26, 2001
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You have got to be kidding me. Seriously. Are you that fucking stupid? So there was no reason for the middle east to be pissed at us? Thats your position, right?
You couldn't follow Noam Chomsky's explanation.
You couldn't follow Ron Paul's explanation.
You couldn't follow Oliver Roy's explanation.
I really don't think you're bright enough to follow Chalmers Johnson's explanation either, but see if you can at least follow the first 2-3 minutes of it.
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