now they are executing innocent women....

[gardenweasel]

they suspect the female body recovered was that of care and aid worker margaret hassan....she was apparently executed,it`s been reported.....i think,once again,al jazeera has tape.....why is that not surprising...

monsters...that`s what they are..

all this woman did during her time in iraq was try and help people...if it`s her...

and now,in the netherlands,they are finally beginning to get the message that THEIR open society is no longer immune to this spreading cancer.....an interesting read...




Dutch confirm international links of terrorism suspects....


Associated Press
AMSTERDAM, NETHERLAND--""Dutch authorities have confirmed that 13 young Muslims arrested on terrorism charges in the Netherlands after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh are members of a radical Islamic group with international links and a Syrian-born spiritual leader.

Dutch intelligence calls the group the "Hofstad Netwerk," and a Justice Ministry official says 43-year-old Syrian Redouan al-Issar, the alleged spiritual leader, has disappeared without a trace.

Van Gogh was killed on an Amsterdam street Nov. 2, apparently for criticizing Islam. His slaying set off a wave of reprisals -- attacks on more than 20 Islamic sites in the Netherlands, including a mosque gutted by fire Saturday.

The three prayer rooms, which would have been full minutes later for a service marking the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, were "completely destroyed and are now worthless," said Mohamed elAmriti, chairman of the Muslim foundation.

The suspect in van Gogh's killing, 26-year-old Mohammed Bouyeri, of Amsterdam, was arrested in a shootout with police minutes after the filmmaker died of gunshot wounds and a slit throat. Bouyeri had a will in his pocket saying he was prepared to die for Islamic jihad, or holy war.

In the days that followed, the government has come under pressure to release details about Islamic radicals and terrorists recruiting in the Netherlands.

In correspondence sent to parliament Thursday, Interior Minister Johan Remkes, who oversees the secret service, gave the clearest picture yet of the Dutch cell allegedly behind van Gogh's murder.

Remkes said the Hofstad Network, composed mostly of young Dutch Muslims of North African ancestry, has links to networks in Spain and Belgium, several members of the group have traveled to Pakistan for training, and its members were under the influence of al-Issar for many years.

"The number of persons and networks in the Netherlands that thinks and acts in terms of actual violence is, in our opinion, limited," he wrote. "But the feeding ground from which they spring, is broader ... it's better to think in terms of thousands than hundreds," he said.

Al-Issar went by several names, including Abu Kaled, the Justice Ministry official said. The name is used by al-Qaida fugitive Muhammad Bahaiah, a courier between Osama bin Laden and European cells.

Al-Issar had sought asylum in Germany beginning in 1995, but has not been seen there since May 2004, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday""'....

i also saw a news report in which many dutch people were interviewd and they are sick and tired of these radicals not assimilating into their peaceful and free society...they want them out...

the netherlands,which basically has a very open immigration policy,is now considering proposals at border control...or even closing it`s borders.....

europe has a much larger radical islamic l problem than does the u.s......i hope they are finally coming to grips with the global nature of the problem...

 

[fletcher]

Was just coming on to voice my rant and break this GW. I have been told I was wrong and raciest for calling these thugs sand fleas and how bad US military treat the people in Iraq and torture them, been told lot of things and I even said well maybe my words were harsh just to keep peace on the board . But now I am done these rag heads sand fleas what ever I feel like calling them show for the 100 + time that they are fuked up, Margaret Hussan had lived in Iraq for 30 years and most of her life there was spent helping these backwards ass trash can dirt eaters. She was director of care int for Iraq, but someone will come in here more then likely from another country and blast the us for something, the facts are these people don't deserve to be treated with respect and we should let them kill each other fuk could care less if we pulled out and let them put own country back together maybe the French will help but would leave a nice big mark on the dust bowl with a few major not little bombs after we give a 2 week warning to what little civil people they have living there which is not many, they have turned (their police force) which we are training and funding on us many times and own the few honest Iraq people who want change and murdered their own people, us military people and others, you have a country of shit eaters and thugs fuk them all, go ahead blast away, 1 will be dan murphy I am sure and that is his right of free speech just like I have mine, djv might chime in and a few people from other countries. Dan I am not being pc anymore with anyone from the middle east or Iraq that might be offened on this forum(if they are not like that then it should not bother them, as i won't be bothered by being taged as raciest over this maybe) Sorry but I have a right to voice how I feel and if that makes me a raciest so be it I can live with that tag if it is tagged because of how I feel towards the sand fleas or as the people from other countries have tried to tell Me there freedom fighters, freedom fighters my ass they are dirt bags who have and always will be trouble makers, murderers and thieves, as well as raciest scum who would kill anyone from the west. So fine I am a raciest then, will i lose sleep over being called that know because people who really know me know i treat all with respect who have it coming, tried to respect all sides in the middle east but can't be done and they would kill any one for any reason from the west, but will have some bleeders say it is the US's fault to begain with. As for Iraq fuk them flatten them then shoot them to make sure job is done, then bomb them again. Then leave the mess to the French un, Germany and Russia since they have made millions from the oil kick backs and food and aid programs.

To be honest least I can be and live with it I could give a rats ass about anyone from over there or their children.

 

[Red & Black]

Not only was she working for the betterment of Iraq, Margaret Hassan also had obtained her Iraqi citizenship since she worked for so long with the Iraqi people.

Fletcher, you're right. It's getting harder and harder to care about these sand fleas.

 

[ELVIS]

couldn't agree more fletch.

 

[gardenweasel]

fletch...i feel very badly for the kid that shot the iraqi with the news crew present......after seeing a booby trapped body explode the previous day......

after seeing these monsters hide in mosques and use citizens as shields...seeing them feign death and open fire on coalition forces...

this kid will be demonized by the media....and it will do nothing more than help these monsters perpetuate their hatred in the arab world.....

this is not going to be a "war" as civilized people understand it.....i think we may have to "bend the rules" a bit to let them know that we are very serious and aren`t going to cave in....regardless of the assisitance our own media gives them....

fully expect ted koppel to be on the tube wringing his hands on nightline over this kid`s actions...

while i doubt they`ll be a mention of margaret hassan....

an innocent woman is slaughtered....

an enemy combatant who may or may not be looking to take a few americans with him to see allah...

that`s some moral equivalent...

i remember reading a mona charon column on her grandfather fighting the japanese on a pacific island...and how they would hide under dead bodies and come out shooting american soldiers...out of the holes and catacombs they dug underneath the island....

the old man said,"fool me once,shame on you...fool me twice,shame on me"....

the americans cleaned the catacombs out with flame throwers after a few of these incidents....

i wonder how "embedded" reporters would have handled that situation.....

lol...

 

[THE KOD]

for them to have killed this woman is the lowest of the low.

Its the most dispicable thing I have ever heard.

 

[gardenweasel]

al jazeera has the tape but won`t be airing it.....


WHY?

because they understand that the terrorist monsters have overstepped their bounds this time and this act can in no way help their cause...it can only turn arab and international opinion strongly against them...

al jazeera is the enemy.....believe that...

a cultural gap....absolutely....

a gap in human dignity and civility....

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

This isn't the first time these monster Islamist jihad terrorists have killed innocent women.

Ever heard of 9/11?

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

And I agree garden......Al-Jezerra needs to be taken out. It is nothing but a corrupt, propogandic anti-American tool used by the terrorists to recruit more terrorists and create a false sense of victory for them.

I say we drop a nice 10,000 pound daisy-cutter on their headquarters.

 

[RAYMOND]

these people have no morals and don't care about human life!
they will burn in hell!

 

[MrChristo]

they will burn in hell!

No they won't....They'll be living it up with 70 virgins

Look, I TOTALLY agree that this act is absolutely horrific...But aren't you guys the same people saying, 'war is war', and 'shit happens in war' etc, etc.

These 'animals' have killed 15-20 (?) hostages because they think it will help their 'cause'. (Right or wrong).

Coalition forces have killed (obviously depending on what reports we believe) anywhere b/w 50-100,000 innocent Iraqi women and children.

The difference??...One's more personal.... the other bunch are nameless, faceless sand-fleas, towel headed, heathens.

Selective outrage.

Oh, and I was obviously being facetious with my first sentence, but hey, you believe one thing, they believe another. Who's right? Who knows.

My guess is that you are both way off, but that's hardly the point.

 

[fletcher]

MC they could be 70 virgin males and no one tells them till the get there

 

[MrChristo]

lol!!!

Yep. That could be a problem! :moon: :scared :142lmao:

 

[gardenweasel]

mr c....i love the way you try and rationalize the brutal murder of a woman that spent her whole life working for the iraqi people...married a muslim man....it`s becoming painfully obvious that you are radically anti-american....or radically pro-fundamentalist...you may be a jihadist....that would explain some of your logic.....are you muslim?

maybe guys on here that are a bit over the top like manson get your goat...that,i understand....

but, where`d you get the 50,000-100,000 iraqi women and children figure?.... have to say it must be al jazeera..or the bbc....or cnn.....or "the lancet"....lol..

because that sounds like a crock of shit....and i think you know it...

why do you think the coalition forces broadcast the fact that they were going into fallujah?....so innocents could leave....and in doing so,many insurgents departed to wreak havoc in other parts of the country...the cost of attempting to not harm innocents....

why you are trying to draw moral equivalents between how this war is being waged and how these monsters murder women and civilians is beyond me.....cold bloodedly...purposefully...deliberately....these people are PURPOSEFULLY murdering iraqi civilians...

disagree with the war.....that`s fine...not sure i agree myself...

but,don` t be foolish....to draw a moral equivalency between our soldiers actions on the battlefield and the purposeful abduction and slaughter of civilians and innocent women...some of whom are muslims and iraqis...

man,you`re out there...

 

[MrChristo]

So the BBC or CNN or far less reliable than your Fox news is it, gw?

I'd personally take BBC reporting over anything else in the world, but I've also seen reports on lectures given by independant Australian journalists who have recently returned from Iraq.

One place a few of you may find a little less Liberal Media hype, is:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

That currently shows ~15,000....But those are only deaths reported in the media. Even you have to concede that there would be far more people killed than the media reports.

Did you read my first sentence, gw?

I couldn't possibly rationalise the killing of a woman who has done so much for the people of Iraq. It's way beyond comprehension as to why anyone would do such a thing.

I have absolutely zero idea how you can see that post as 'radically anti-American'?? I didn't once mention your country, or my country, or any other country involved!

Look, it was a pointless death, agreed!!...But tell me why her death is any more (or less) pointless than innocent Iraqi women and children dying every day????

The point of my post was most certainly NOT to justify her death....But to point out the fact that she is but one of THOUSANDS suffering the same fate.

Also love the "These People" quote....Like they speak for and represent the whole Muslim population....They're ALL such mosters aren't they?!

Hey, Timothy McViegh DELIBERATELY killed 126 innocent men, women and children.
(NO, I'm still not trying to justify anything!!)...Point is there are psycho's everywhere in the world, that DO NOT REPRESENT THE MASSIVE MAJORITY.


My guess is that you are both way off, but that's hardly the point.

No, gm, not a Muslim myself.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Which is farther left BBC are The Guardian---a toss up!
BBC is equivilant to NPR.

a little BBC reporting

Wednesday, November 10, 2004
On Monday, Newsnight interviewed Fadil al-Badrani who, we were told, lives in central Fallujah. We were not told Mr al-Badrani's occupation. Nor were we told how the BBC managed to find him and arrange a telephone interview. The viewer was left with the impression that Mr al-Badrani was merely an unfortunate civilian trapped in the city. He described an apocalyptic scene. The Americans have turned Fallujah into "hell," he said.

On Tuesday, Mr al-Badrani was back on the telephone -- this time identified as an Iraqi journalist. The situation in Fallujah is "extremely tragic," he claimed. Civilians are stranded in the city: "many people have died due to lack of medical care"; "Fallujah's makeshift hospital has been bombed by American planes this morning and all its medical staff have been killed."

Mr al-Badrani's description is, apparently, not only first-hand but it's presented without the censorship advisory that accompanies the reports of the BBC's journalists embedded with US forces. Surely, then, Mr al-Badrani is an especially reliable source of information? Surely the BBC, a world-respected news organisation, wouldn't accidentally broadcast propaganda (about the killing of civilians and bombing of a hospital) intended to incite anti-American hostility? The BBC, committed to accurate and impartial reporting, wouldn't fall for something so transparently dishonest, would they?

No, they wouldn't. In fact, there's nothing unintentional about any of this. The BBC knows exactly who Fadil al-Badrani is and they know full well that he is lying.*

The same Mr al-Badrani makes an appearance on Al Jazeera, where he claims that an American helicopter has been downed: "I saw the helicopter collide with a rocket. It turned into a ball of fire and fell to the ground. There was smoke everywhere." In another story on Al Jazeera, Mr al-Badrani says: "Almost half of the city's mosques have been destroyed after being targeted by US air and tank strikes."

It's highly probable that Mr al-Badrani told his helicopter and mosque stories to the BBC, but knowing that they would quickly be dismissed by the US military (as indeed they have been), the BBC decided not to use them so as to protect their reporter's plausibility, if not his (and their) credibility.

Ralph Peters warned about this sort of thing in a column on Monday:

The most decisive battle since the fall of Baghdad has begun ... Stopping even one building short of the annihilation of the terrorists and insurgents would be a defeat. Al-Jazeera will pull out the propaganda stops, inventing American atrocities. The BBC will pressure Tony Blair to rein in our president. Iraqi faction leaders will press Prime Minister Iyad Allawi to accept a cease-fire for "talks."
Exactly, except that Mr Peters is too kind to the BBC. On the first day of the military operation, the BBC did more than pressure the Prime Minister. It joined with its ally Al Jazeera (where Mr al-Badrani was probably discovered) and reported stories of supposed American atrocities.

If there are any doubts where the BBC's sympathies lie in the war against Islamo-fascism, Orla Guerin, when asked by newsreader Huw Edwards about reports that Yasser Arafat's condition has taken a final turn for the worse, responded: "Well, it's certainly very grim news, Huw."

Grim, indeed.

To be fair, Guerin may be talking about the dominant Palestinian reaction rather than her own personal feelings. It's not clear. But, then again, Guerin's view and the view of pro-Arafat Palestinians are indistinguishable. At least she didn't start crying.


Fair and balanced--RIGHT

 

[MrChristo]

The BBC knows exactly who Fadil al-Badrani is and they know full well that he is lying.*

What does the asterix pertain to? A little disclaimer that says something along the lines of 'this cannot be proven' or something similar?

It's highly probable that Mr al-Badrani told his helicopter and mosque stories to the BBC, but knowing that they would quickly be dismissed by the US military (as indeed they have been), the BBC decided not to use them so as to protect their reporter's plausibility, if not his (and their) credibility

You are now assuming that the US military tells the 100% truth at all times! Just as it may well be propaganda to say a helicopter was shot down, would it not also be the equivalent for the US to deny such a 'mishap'?

To be fair, Guerin may be talking about the dominant Palestinian reaction rather than her own personal feelings. It's not clear.

And I thought us 'liberals' were the only one's who twisted words.

 

[gardenweasel]

mr c....i believe you are anti-american because of your body of work here in the political forum....you say not....o.k......

but the ridiculous moral equivalencies you try and rationalize lead me to no other logical conclusion........

timothy mcveigh???....one nut....compared to an organized effort by religious zealots to wreak havoc globally?....

c`mon,man....

read this....please....this is what the world is going to have to deal with....it`s not an american problem.....

and please,no comparisons to the loony religious right....or the random shooting of an pediatric care doctor by an insane idiot.......they can be loony....they aren`t barbarians as a group......

certainly not on the grand scale of these muslim extremists...like comparing the treatment of arab/muslim pows to the beheading,mutilation,execution of innocent kidnapped victims of the insurgents....ludicrous...

please read.....some day,coming to a neighborhood near you......

the article is in the next panel...

 

[gardenweasel]

"""" Europe was recently slapped hard across the face by the murder of Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker and outspoken critic of Islam. Van Gogh, a descendant of the painter, was shot while riding his bicycle to work in Amsterdam.

The bullets did not kill van Gogh. He survived long enough to stagger toward his office and plead with his attacker not to kill him -- just as Nick Berg, Margaret Hassan, Kenneth Bigley and countless others pleaded with their murderers. But the killer, a Moroccan/Dutch jihadist who reportedly converted to radical Islam after Sept. 11, 2001, pulled out a long knife and methodically slit the throat of the 47-year-old van Gogh. He then withdrew a lengthy manifesto from his pocket used the bloody knife to impale it on the chest of the filmmaker.

The letter is a screed of terrific savagery, written partly in quite conversational Dutch and part in Arabic. Much of the vitriol is aimed at Hirsi Ali -- a Dutch member of parliament of Somali birth who has renounced Islam and had helped van Gogh to make a film, " Submission," that unveiled the abuse many Muslim women silently endure.

"There will come a day," declares the threat letter, "when one soul will not be able to help another soul. A day of horrible tortures and painful tribulations which will go together with the terrible cries being pressed out of the lungs of the unjust. Cries, Mrs. Hirsi Ali, which will cause chills to run up someone's spine, and cause the hair on their head to stand straight up. ... Hair-raising screams will be squeezed from the lungs of the non-believers."

Later the letter warns: "I surely know that you, O America, will be destroyed. I surely know that you, O Europe, will be destroyed. I surely know that you, O Holland, will be destroyed."

The response of the editorial board of The New York Times reveals why Western civilization is imperiled. "Urgent efforts are needed to better manage the cultural tensions perilously close to the surface of Dutch public life," intoned the Times. "The problem is not Muslim immigration, but a failure to plan for a smoother transition to a more diverse society. One very real danger is that the public trauma over the van Gogh murder may lead to a clamor for anti-Muslim policies that could victimize thousands of innocent refugees and immigrants."

Right. The problem is not a murderous, totalitarian religious ideology bent on domination of any society with which it comes into contact (just ask the Sudanese Christians, the Israeli Jews or the Hindu Indians), rather it is the Western world's lack of "diversity." Good Lord, where are these people's brains?

It is perfectly obvious to all but the most obtuse observer, which of course includes the editorial board of The New York Times, that an excess of tolerance is what got Holland and the rest of Europe into this mess in the first place. Holland has leaned over backward to welcome immigrants from the former Dutch colony of Indonesia -- to the point where a majority of children under the age of 14 in Holland's four largest cities are Muslims. Muslims now comprise 6 percent of the population, but their numbers are growing rapidly through large families and continuing Muslim immigration (about 30,000 per year).

Some 300,000 of the 1 million Muslims in Holland fervently support the radical imams and mosques that preach jihad against the Jews, the West and all infidels. The Dutch have prided themselves on tolerating everything from legal prostitution, to euthanasia, to freely available marijuana and other drugs. But in tolerating the intolerant Muslims, they have swallowed a serpent.

In the wake of van Gogh's murder, many Netherlanders have come to recognize this. Seventy-five percent told pollsters they support "radical" measures for dealing with terrorists, and Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm announced that the Dutch cabinet had "declared war on Islamic extremism." Those who don't support Holland's tradition of free speech have been publicly invited to leave the country, even if they are citizens, and the government is preparing to close radical mosques altogether.

The New York Times would not approve. But sane observers will recognize the Dutch as the first Europeans to display a healthy survival instinct. It is not too late for the rest of Europe -- yet."""'

mona charen....she`s a smart lady...

i know...it`s not al jazeera or the bbc.....but,it`s healthy to broaden your horizons occasionally....

relax..... it`s all cozy down under....for now

..of course that`s how all of europe felt about the nazi`s...laughing at churchill.....calling him crazy...

history appears to be repeating itself in europe...europe doesn`t get it...has never gotten it...

hopefully the pond will keep you safe...for the time being...

 

[MrChristo]

gw, I have never, EVER been tolerant, or forgiving of the absolute extreme radicals who do these acts. (ie. your article, the much publicised kidnapping/murders)....But, what I am trying to stress is that these are still a TINY minority of the entire Muslim population.....
...BUT, I do understand why they are doing it. (And I'm sure you do too.)

...It's not a religious thing at all....I mean, sure, there's the pomp and ceremony, and the chanting of the koran etc. etc....but why are they kidnapping westerners? As a means to get what they want.
They kidnap someone from the Phillipines and threaten to cut their head off....Result? The Phillipines withdraws from Iraq. Victory 1.
The latest kidnappiong and shooting?....Result? Various aid agencies are planning to withdraw from Iraq. Victory 2.
They aren't maliciously killing people because of some deep seeded religious belief, it's quite simply a tactic of war. (Sorry if that sounds cold, but that's how it is.)


tbh, I've always seen this 'war' as more of a land issue than a religious issue.
I'm quite prepared to be proven wrong on that point....But bare with me.....
....Look, again this is going to sound all anti-US, but I'll press on!!...Why do you think these radicals want to knock down the US? Do you think it's just a whim? Some of you out there think it's just jealousy!!....But I keep harping back to one point, and I happen to believe it's a valid one. (I believe that they believe it's a valid reason...does that make sense?)

The point being that the US has constantly involved itself in Middle Eastern affairs for the past 50 years. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but this desire to have some control in the area (I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this, 'we care about the repressed civilians' line!) has bred, and is now breeding at an exponential rate, the hatred that we now see directed at the west.

I know it's pointless playing a 'what if' game, but maybe if we had have left them alone they would now be happily living on grain, stoning their women to death and leaving us the hell alone, and we wouldn't care less!!

I just see it as an ever tightening downward spiral that more involvement leads to more hatred...and now we've had pretty much the ultimate involvement, which (quite logically) now breeds the ultimate hatred and desire to quash to west.

I guess they effectively have a 'simple' (yes, even barbaric) culture, that can be seen as 100, 200, 500 years behind the times (our times), but unfortunately for them, they happen to be sitting smack bang on top of one of the most important patches on land on Earth!!

Again, without trying to appear anti-this or pro-that, I would suggest that is it only natural to wind up getting sick of being controlled, and to lash out at the people who feel it's perfectly ok to try to control their lives??
Wouldn't you agree?

The reason I sometimes appear to take an anti-American stance is to try to point out that there are two sides to this story. A lot of people on this board seem to think that, 'Hey, we're the USA! We can do what we want, when we want, and I [we] don't care what anyone else thinks!'
It's just the whole, 'We're right, and everyone else is wrong and will pay for it!' attitude gets to me some times.

I do think that the US has done wrong...just like pretty much every nation in the world has done wrong at some point....But as I've said before, most people learn from their mistakes, not jump head-long into mire time and time again.

imo, the US (AND the rest of the west!) cannot simply sit back and absolve ourselves of any blame...to simply say, 'they are evil!', when (I believe) we've quite clearly had a hand in it all along....
....In fact we've more than just had a hand in it...It's a simple FACT that the US created the two biggest evil-doers in the region...One of whom is obviously gone, and the other may or may not be...but even if he is, he's left behind a legacy that will haunt the west for a long, long time to come.


[As a total aside (and at the risk of portraying myself as a total geek! )...Have you ever played the board game 'Risk'? It's funny how even in a pretend game, you always still seem to be fighting over the same regions that are 'hot spots' in reality....Just a bit more personal validation that the current situation is more about geography than religion.]
(Of course, if you've never played the game, you have no idea what the **** I am on about! )