now they are executing innocent women....

DOGS THAT BARK

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"But, what I am trying to stress is that these are still a TINY minority of the entire Muslim population...."

But the majority do nothing about it in fact aid and abet- letting them use mosque as fortesses--making them quilty by association
whens the last time you saw any Muslim media condeming anything as a matter of fact you have huge bounties on many of these terrorists and your telling me the ave Muslim society know nothing of their where abouts.

"...It's not a religious thing at all....I mean, sure, there's the pomp and ceremony, and the chanting of the koran etc. etc....but why are they kidnapping westerners? As a means to get what they want.
They kidnap someone from the Phillipines and threaten to cut their head off....Result? The Phillipines withdraws from Iraq. Victory 1.
The latest kidnappiong and shooting?....Result? Various aid agencies are planning to withdraw from Iraq. Victory 2.
They aren't maliciously killing people because of some deep seeded religious belief, it's quite simply a tactic of war. (Sorry if that sounds cold, but that's how it is.)"

I will agree on terror issue but not about it not being religion--It is the youngsters that are inflicted with the hate and killing in schools and mosques.

You are correct on their terror tactics on these passive countries -Philippines Spain ect but it kind of back fired on them in U.S. and Autralia too considering their election returns and I look for Blair to make it a clean sweep.

--and in conjuction with the passive targets--their biggest ally is the liberal media--prison scandal 43 days headlines--how much exposer did they give Saddams killing fields--now they show the marine shooting continuously but what about the slaughter houses they found--the weapons and blood in the mosques--
The press likes to portray the world hating us--but you find just as many violent protest and defamation from the liberals in our own country--the other side gets no exposer,being non violent for most part, and too busy working--the only place they they are acknowledged is at the polls --where it counts ;)
I see a simliar patterns in Australia :)
 

StevieD

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DTB once again you try to make this a left vs right thing. The fact is that the Muslim leadership has not tried to stop these acts of violence nor have they spoken out against them. The very people we are trying to liberate are not willing to step up and stop the violence. Bush has us in over our heads over there. You can't liberate those who don't want to be liberated.
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
and again i say,"who makes the decision on whether the west is involved in the middle east?"....bin laden or the governments and rulers of the region?......i know you think that the radicals should be calling the shots....but for a westerner to think like that is assinine....


it`s a symbiotic relationship.....just because the radicals don`t like it...or agree with it.....doesn`t mean that it shouldn`t be....

this stuff didn`t all take place in a vaccuum after 9/11 and/or iraq.......it`s been on the gradual increase for decades.........

who calls the shots?....the governments/rulers of respective countries?....or the bin ladens and terrorists?...

you may think that these monsters should wield the authority in the region......but,thankfully,the tail doesn`t yet wag the dog...

can you imagine if these s.o.b.`s actually had complete power?....as you seem to hope for in your anti-american zeal......

amazing....



and why do they want to knock down the u.s?.....because the u.s. is the standard.....it is the leader of the western world....the free world... the antithesis of everything these monsters stand for.....the country that stands in their way...that is leading the fight against the radical fundamentalists...



i guess they figure that if you cut off the head,the body dies....

wake up mr.christo.....you basically,i hope,share western belief systems....we are entering a cultural war.....a war of civilization vs intolerance, age old hatreds,tribalism and barabarism.....

who should be calling the shots?...the arab leaders and governments...or the radical,murdering,intolerant religious zealots?....

who you don`t agree with but excuse and rationalize....

you are hopeless....
 

MrChristo

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All you seem to want to talk about is 'who's running the place', gw.

and again i say,"who makes the decision on whether the west is involved in the middle east?"....

The 'leaders' of the region want the US/west sould be 'calling the shots', and want the US involved??
Who exactly? Israel and Saudi Arabia?...One of which is a complete fish out of water (hardly their fault, I know!), the other is too busy humping Bush's leg (and vice-verca) to care what the US does.

ffs, gm, I don't think the radicals should call the shots....They are calling the shots, and realistically have been calling the shots since the start of time.

You just can't seem to get your head around that not everywhere in the world is like well-structured America or Australia or the UK.
They don't have 'real' elections, or a court system they can turn to....And although you see it as your personal agenda to 'modernise' the world, it just ain't gunna happen.

And since you keep repeating stuff, so will I....We've been trying for 50 years to make it happen!!...IT HASN'T HAPPENED!!!

I notice you also didn't didn't acknowlegde the US involvement in placing Saddam in power, or arming Bin Ladan and effectively building his empire for him either ;)
 

fletcher

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Not going to take sides in the little spat between gw and mc because they are both my friend but I will say have always been treated as a friend by mc the same way i treat him and enjoy being friends with him as I do you gw, i don't feel that mc is anti US or he would not be friends with me, he has his views from another country and that is he right, him and i don't talk about things like that because every person has a different mind set and not worth losing a friend over something stupid that neither one of us can make a change in the whole mess of the world, but as a person just like you gw I have no problem in calling him my friend and enjoy his friendship as well as a few of my friends from that part of the world and i respect their feelings just like the respect mine, so we talk about other things in life which are more fun, women, sports, what it is like to visit the countries down under, and just how things are going in personal life, but he is not anti American and i will stand behind that statement. not going to chime in again between you to because I am friends with both of you and not going to lose a friend over something none of us can really change anyway, hell i still fell the world is ran by the secret society of the Vanderburgh group or how ever you spell it and name is off can't think right now mind blank, people think i am stupid over my thoughts on that but I will go to my grave thinking that is who controls the whole world all those fat cats from all different countries. kind of like mulder of the xfiles when it comes to feds or any high up world government :scared but i do believe and always will that is who runs the whole world and us is a part of the group. maybe i listen to coast to coast to much at night and live to close to art bell:D you see some weird shit out here at night in the dessert area 51.
 

gardenweasel

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mr c....you know politics makes strange bedfellows...as enemies change,so do allies....nothing is written in stone...that`s silly to say that because saddam was once an ally and we assisted him against iran,,that he must always be so....look at france....look at japan and germany...

YOU are talking about "running the place"..i`m not talking about "modernizing the world"......i`m talking about radicals telling countries whom they can and can`t deal with......who they can have commerce with....saying who must get out...as though they are the proxy rulers of the middle east....

they are not...

they are saying saying the middle east is theirs and theirs alone..and that if you a moderate muslim,you`d better have a change in philosophy or be ready to lose your head...

they will kidnap,murder and terrorize anyone that doesn`t agree....
and not just the middle east....it`s occurring all over the world...

and the moral equivalency that you draw between the west and these fanatics is idiotic.....

i can say no more...keep your head buried in the sand...keep making excuses for these killers...

fletch may not be able to see you clearly....

but,i do....
 
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MrChristo

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neither one of us can make a change in the whole mess of the world

Damn you, fletcher!! How dare you come here and actually put some perspective on things! :D

gw, I think we both agree that the actions of some of these people are sickening.

but: a) I don't think anyone should be running around playing world policeman; and
b) I don't think it's going to work anyway.

So a woman is born in Afghanistan...She's in for a pretty poor life (compared to our standards!), and that's tragic for her....But I don't see the difference between her, and a girl born in say, Mexico, into abject poverty, who will likely not survive to 20 because of some desease that is totally preventable in the 'affluent' world.

I know, I know...You think I'm trying to rationalise evil again!! :rolleyes:

Point is not everyone in the world can live like you or I.
Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc. will never be a modernised, western type countries, unless we take them over completely. Hey, maybe that's the plan. ;)
(I think we both know that that isn't going to happen)

[gw, I guess if we're in a 'spat', or have some kind of grudge going we should resort to name-calling. If you could just help me out by telling me where you live, and what kind of background your family comes from, I'd appreciate it! :D]
 

MrChristo

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fletch may not be able to see you clearly....

but,i do....


Yes, gw. You've caught me out. I'm trying to bring down the modern world from the inside! (ie. Madjacks forum!) :rolleyes:

Just one more...

nothing is written in stone...that`s silly to say that because saddam was once an ally and we assisted him against iran,,that he must always be so

I think you are missing my point. He was a product of the US trying to control the area. Trying to bring 'westernisation' to the area...well, trying to surpress Middle-Easternisation I guess is more accurate.

Same way the US armed Bin Ladan to kick those evil Ruski's out of Afghanistan....Of course, it's war worth getting invloved in and backing/funding to drive the Russians out of a country, but perfectly acceptable to have a presence there ourselves, and wonder why they turn on us!
It's crazy....Is it total arrogance, or is it ignorance?

You have still yet to tell me why you think it will work this time.
How will you get these radicals out of power, when they can sit back and play the terrorist game for ever and a day?
You seem to think it's achievable.
I don't, especially the way we seem to be going about it at present.
 

gardenweasel

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"the evil imperialistic americans"....taking the easy way out,eh?....please...

we`ll just stand by as these religious zealots arm themselves to the teeth with wmd`s......and let them try and annhilate israel so we can have a full scale middle eastern war....fecking up half of the world`s energy supply....

....with my luck you are a terrorist cell leader and i`d have to look over my shoulder every time i got in my car....lol....

that`s enough for me....i`m in full fledged migraine mode....

mission accomplished,mr c......

i`ll give you the last word...it could end no other way.....

i`m used to it....it happens at home all the time...
 
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pirate fan

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Don't mean to get in the way, but I am wondering Mr. Christo if you see much Muslim anger in your country over what the terrorists are doing. I really don't see any Muslims in our country standing up and saying what the terrorists are doing is wrong, or anywhere in the world for that matter. I am hoping I am just missing it or maybe the media doesn't feel it is worthy of reporting. I would think many would want peace or freedom in their countries and call out to their fellow muslims to stand up to the terrorists. Or is it maybe they agree with the terrorist ways and don't speak out because of all the anti-terrorist feeling in our country. Curious on your perspective from down under. :)
 

MrChristo

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Na...You are right, pirate fan.

There appears to be no vocal denouncing of it....Not sure if that means they are sitting at home 'barracking' for the home team or not tho! :D

I did see one American women on a talk show (a real one!..Not these scripted 'interviews'), she was a Muslim (can't remember her name...Not sure if she well known or not, she had a book out, that's about all I know!), and yeah, she was saying how 'modern Islam' was a far cry what from it was supposed to be, and denouncing this 'new breed' as zealots and such.

Was actually quite intersting...will have a quick look to see if I can find out who she was.

But, yeah, besides her, I've heard/seen no real vocal opposition over here. (Again, I'm not sure you can take this to mean they are supportive of it? :shrug: )

EDIT: Can't find who she was....Anyway, I do take your point.
 
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pirate fan

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Yeah, I just find it interesting as Isalm is a peaceful religion, yet, people within the religion don't seem to call out the radical extremists. I don't understand why. :shrug: I'm sure they can't be supportive of it if they truly believe what the Koran says. Still they allow their religion to get continual black eyes from the extremists. There are so many innocents being killed and hurt, families destroyed. I really thought with this last murder of Margaret Hassen, there would be some outcry from this group, at least somewhere. Real change starts from the bottom up
 

pirate fan

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djv, why would you say that? I don't think so. She was out in the open quite a bit and everyone knew who she was. She may have been a saint, risking her life to help others, and eventually losing it.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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There is Muslim woman that wrote book denoucing extreme isalamic fundelist--have saw her many times--she currently has bounty on her head from same.

---and Stevie I wouldn't make it a left right thing if if liberal media--NYT--would quit teaming up with their affillate Algezeera
Get tired of seeing each quote one another on anti U.S. bs--today @ Algezeera

Civilians killed

According to The New York Times, quoting the ICRC, about 800 civilians have been killed in Falluja since the US assault on the city began on 8 November.

The paper cited the story of one family using a car to flee the carnage into the city only to come face to face with a marine squad who had taken control of a mosque as a defence position.

"A barrage of bullets followed. Minutes later, Ms Abd Allah's mother lay bloodied and dying in the rear seat, glass shards strewn about her. Ms Abd Allah, hit in the back by a bullet, collapsed into her mother's lap. Three men in the car were lightly wounded," the paper reported.



When US marines realised they may have killed civilians, they rushed to check on the casualties. Their support Iraqi National Guard advised they kill the survivors, but the marines held off and provided medical assistance when it was determined the people in the car were not part of the city's resistance groups.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/75E3CA31-83B0-46FD-A762-0C1157C408F9.htm

just waiting for NYT to reciprocate Monday with a report from another of their "un named sources" on this Agezeera fanticy out today
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/24EBE5BB-CA3F-462B-8279-546BC1D9B7E6.htm

ya know Stevie it wasn't Ohio that determined the election--it was Mass---they had their liberal judge/supreme court trying to trump We the people--and as result got measure on ballot in 11 states including Ohio that brought out the voters in full strength--appreciate it--keep up the good work ;)
 
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fletcher

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That is why I read the Vegas paper and NY post . Hell next best thing to the globe or star:D The last 2 were a joke of course but the LVRJ and post have all kinds of good trash in them, and best sports pages IMO of any 2 papers in the US. Get the post delivered about a hour earlier then the RJ, post is here by 2am. Also this might surprise you. I also get the Wall Street Journal
 
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