Provocation and Negotiation.

KMA

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PRO190,

Okay dude, *LOL* I can try to answer that, and in some depth too, I hope, (as for individual names, no, I don't have names, I was talking more on a mass scale). BUT, I will reply Monday night, I'm getting ready to finish up work and then I have to finish a paper on Bioinformatic tools and the profound impact they have and I have to finish it for Monday morning.


Cowchip, *LOL* I can't believe you call a person 'Cowchip' when debating!!!
 

KMA

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Chanman,

It was necessary, it ended the war. It also probably saved the lives of at least 100,000 allied troops. Could it have been done a different way??? I suppose anything is possible. Most likely there were more civilians killed in the allied firebombing of Dresden. Was that necessary as well??? There are compelling arguments on both sides. My personal opinion is that Truman made the best decision given the circumstances in which our nation found itself. But there are certainly plenty of historians who would disagree. I just put some 'what if' thoughts out there, history is NOT my strong point, neuroscience is.
 

djv

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We took our side a long time ago and it's cost us billions. And now it will cost more and more and more. We want to be the leader of the world. But no one wants to follow. So you get to lead nothing. So many of these countries must just smile watching us go deeper into the hole. Then open there doors wide open to our great American companies that love this country so much they do what. Keep shipping the jobs to these same countries that dont give one shit about us. Our government can be so dam stupid at times. It's time for a change but im not sure if the American people have caught on yet.
 
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gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
the problems in ireland

the problems in ireland

sort of resembled more of a fight for civil rights originally..........i don`t think religious belief was a key issue...even though the lines were drawn along the lines of religious labels it was probably much more political...the unionists and the nationalists...the majority oppressing the minority...


i wouldn`t call it a religious war or jihad.....more of a fight for civil rights for the catholics who were pretty much discriminated against as the minority......

i don`t think our situation vs muslim fanatics and the irish civil upheavel have much in common....

maybe the kurds and the sunni`s in iraq are a better comparison to the irish.......one group subjugating another...

i`m no expert on either....just throwing some opinion out there....
 
P

PRO190

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BobbyBlueChip said:
You're right, pro, the fact that they are all Catholics is probably just a statistical anomaly.

Do you create these "facts" as you go?

No, it's called basing my statements on facts, not on a factless foundation as we have witnessed: It doesn't matter if the population is 1% or 99% Irish Catholic.
This debate concerns whether the IRAs point of confrontation was based on RELIGIOUS differences, IT was NOT, Again it was based on Political rule!
"They" being Protestants and Catholics ?, sorry PAL , They are not ALL Catholics , the Protestants haven't been associated with the Catholic Church since they " reformed " hundreds of years ago! Let's see , what other facts can I make up :


VACATION TIME boys and girls, don't miss me to much:SIB
 
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Chanman

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KMA said:
Chanman,It was necessary, it ended the war. It also probably saved the lives of at least 100,000 allied troops. Could it have been done a different way??? I suppose anything is possible. Most likely there were more civilians killed in the allied firebombing of Dresden. Was that necessary as well??? There are compelling arguments on both sides. My personal opinion is that Truman made the best decision given the circumstances in which our nation found itself. But there are certainly plenty of historians who would disagree. I just put some 'what if' thoughts out there, history is NOT my strong point, neuroscience is.


I'm getting ready to finish up work and then I have to finish a paper on Bioinformatic tools and the profound impact they have
*stares@screen w/mouth agape* Ummm, ahhhh, Thanks KMA. Germany and Japan can't be held to the same criteria I believe. As far as "plenty of historians who would disagree," I don't think its right to put future standards on past events. Hindsight is 20/20 as the saying goes. Historians are like Arm Chair Quarterbacks-IMHO.

You seem to be up on your sciences--computer and neuro--(hope I spelled that right). Sorry I couldn't give you a better answer, but Thanks Again for the post...hmmm, must be a slow night for mensa/AMA web sites. ;p GL2U
 

BobbyBlueChip

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gw,

I can see where the belief would come that the Catholic struggle in Ireland isn't a religious one, but if it isn't, then the Islamic one isn't either.

Isn't the new jihad about civil rights, too? The right not to be invaded by infidels, to solve their own internal problems, and not have outside influence interfering with their traditions.

KMA posed some pretty thoughtful questions and they were being dismissed because they didn't fall in line with whatever some action hero did in some movie when he had to deal w/ terrorists. Obviously present policy isn't working all that well and maybe we should look for another way.

What if Al Queda had asked us to remove our troops in Saudi Arabia and in return they promised not to attack our national interests abroad or the Israeli state? And both kept their word. Not sure that it would have happened, but it doesn't seem impossible. Too late to do anything about it now, though.

And for you, pro. Notice how many times they use the word "Catholic", not nationalist not laborers, but "Catholic", y'know, like the religion

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/conflict/
 

ozball

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I would also argue that the middle east problems are not necessarily "religious based" war either. Land rights for Palestinians vs Israelis, oppression of Palestinians.....the divide just happens to be along religious lines, and this fact has been used by both sides (Arab groups declaring "jihad", Israelis crying anti-Semitism).

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is quite similar to the IRA/Unionist one in many ways. The Palestinians want land that has been taken from them, in their mind unfairly.

Many in the West (and middle east) narrowly view the whole current situation as Islamic war on Western Values....Simplifying the situation like this is like picturing the USA as hood wearing KKK members, because that group of extremists exists here in North America. There are extremists everywhere, and using the image of them to dehumanize a race or group has led the human race to many tragic events in histoy.

ozball
 

gardenweasel

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bobby

bobby

i think kma`s post was a good one...a thought provoking read...and it would be a great day if the "terrorist threat" could be negotiated away...

al qaida may ask us to remove our troops from saudi arabia....the question is,"does the saudi monarchy have any say in the matter?"....


and what of the terrorist bombings in syria?...they aren`t allowed to have a u.n. office in their country?......they aren`t our allies...but they haven`t escaped the terrorist`s wrath....is the u.n. tabboo in the middle east?....because the terrorists say so?....

what`s next?....

what about musharaf in pakistan...he`s our ally....should he capitulate and let the terrorists call the shots?....

do terrorist groups like al qaida make policy for middle eastern countries or does the actual leadership make policy?...

should the middle east become a western hating monolith because of some extremists?....must each individual country walk in lockstep with the terrorists or be subjected to their ire and violence?

kind of like the tail wagging the dog...

i think kma`s question is reasonable.......but,is it really viable considering the rigidity of the radical`s position on the west....considering their irrational interpretation of islam....

remember....regardless on where you stand on the iraq war issue,that wasn`t the precipitator of the terrorist issue...it was arguably one of the unfortunate results of it...


if everyone capitulates to the terrorist`s demand of total western withdrawal from everything middle eastern,what does that say?......what kind of world is it when the radical few call the shots just because they are the craziest and the most willing to use violence?...

that`s a tough precedent to set....

not arguing with you guys......it`s just such an ethereal issue......we all make the same supposition when we say,"the terrorists"......as though they are a single entity.....as though they all spoke through one mouth...

i wish it could be negotiated....it`s seems a little quixotic.....

i`m afraid that pandora`s box is open and we are on the verge of some major catastrophe....

i doubt you can negotiate with religious zealots....i hope i`m wrong...and that you guys are right...i sincerely mean that..
 

CryBoy

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homedog said:
Your argument about using negotiation is legitimate in some of the cases you named but not with radical Islamic extremists.

Exactly what is their grievance? If it was as easy as "we'll stay on our side of the world and you stay on yours", I would agree with negotiation. Unfortunately it is not.

The Islamic terrorists grievance is our way of life. They despise it. Would you propose that we negotiate on this?

These people can't be negotiated with. There is no reasoning in their motives.

Thanks for your post and not trying to knock you personally, but negotiation in this case is not an option.
My god! This is scary. Scary to think that there is no solution to this insanity.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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KMA Your theories are interesting--the exception I take is it is not Muslims against just Western civilization--it's Muslim fundamentalist against the world. You can go to Asian Free Press (AFP) any day--click on any country and find Muslims vs what ever other religion dominates the region. Their fundamentalist movement is at war with "everyone".

Read a few of today papers from non-western countries--it might enlighten some on whats actual going on in this world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| China | | India | Indonesia | | Malaysia | | Pakistan | Philippines | Taiwan | Thailand |

Heres the tip of iceberg today


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040503/1/3jyhv.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040503/1/3jyjo.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040425/1/3jr0n.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040430/1/3jwg2.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040501/1/3jxhs.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040503/1/3jyjp.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040426/1/3jrnu.html
 

Pujo21

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It is unreal the liberties these people are getting here in The States. They are getting all kinds of Welfare, small business loans, and funneling moneys to The Terrorists Groups thru bogus charities.

New York City is real bad...Detroit is worse.

I have a big problem with these scumbags coming to the very Western Civilization that they so despise and getting all the perks.

I truly don't know what this country is waiting for, allowing these individuals to remain in this country ?

:mad:
 

KMA

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I think it's important to remember that before the sanctions in 1990, Iraq had an exceptionally high standard of living and some of the highest literacy rates (95%) in the world. 93% of the poulation enjoyed fre access to the health system. So the oft-claimed propoganda that Iraq was an impoverished state with substandard facilities is just that, propoganda. By all standards used to indicate a countries position with regards to well-being of its inhabitants, Iraq rated amongst the best in the world. Now it's in the lowest 20%.
It's also important to realise that sanctions in central and southern Iraaq differ vastly from the way they work in northern Iraq From the impostion of sanctions up to the current war, Unicef reports indicate at least 200 children were dying daily due to malnutrition, lack of sanitation and clean water and a lack of medical equipment and drugs to cure and treat easily treatable diseases.

Prior to 1990, the biggest problem concerning pediatricians was childhood obesity, now it's malnutrition which is now endemic amongst Iraqi children.

Diseases like kwashiorkor or marasmus are common in pediatric wards.

Because most sewage treatement plants were bombed during the first war and others because of lack of imported equipment and chemicals such as chlorine due to fears of 'dual usage' (ie being used in the production of WMD) sanitation and fresh water is of grave concern. Children now die from treatable diseases such as diarrhea and typhoid.

The same concerns ensure children cannot use pencils in school as the carbon ingredient might be used for WMD.

So, too, is the health system affected. Incubators, X-ray machines, and heart and lung machines are banned along with morphine, vaccines, analgesics and chemotherapy drugs. Drugs which ARE allowed are often rendered ineffectual due to probelms with refrigeration and transportation.

More than a million rounds of weapons coated with depleted uranium were fired in the last war. Depleted uranium can enter the food chain tghrough soil and water, it can be inhaled and ingested and while there are those who scoff and say DU is relatively harmless, the sharp rise in cancer victims in Iraq belies this.In 1991, the Atomic Energy Authority warned that, if particles from merely 8 per cent of the DU used in the Gulf were inhaled, there could be "300,000 potential deaths".

"The dust carries death," Dr Jawad Al-Ali, a cancer specialist and member of Britain's Royal College of Physicians, told me. "Our own studies indicate that more than 40 per cent of the population in this area will get cancer in five years' time to begin with, then long afterwards. Most of my own family now have cancer, and we have no history of the disease. It has spread to the medical staff of this hospital. We are living through another Hiroshima. Of course, we don't know the precise source of the contamination, because we are not allowed [under sanctions] to get the equipment to conduct a proper scientific survey, or even to test the excess level in our bodies. We suspect depleted uranium. There simply can be no other explanation."

Professor Karol Sikora, chief of the cancer programm of the World Health Organisation, wrote in the British Medical Journal: "Requested radiotherapy equipment, chemotherapy drugs and analgesics are consistently blocked by United States and British advisers"

(as a side note here's an excerpt from The New Statesman, April 2004:

"Dr Doug Rokke, director of the US army depleted uranium project following the 1991 Gulf invasion, estimates that more than 10,000 American troops have since died as a result, many from contamination illness. When I asked him how many Iraqis had died, he raised his eyes and shook his head. "Solid uranium was used on shells," he said. "Tens of thousands of Iraqis - men, women and children - were contaminated. Right through the 1990s, at international symposiums, I watched Iraqi officials approach their counterparts from the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence and ask, plead, for help with decontamination. The Iraqis didn't use uranium; it was not their weapon. I watched them put their case, describing the deaths and horrific deformities, and I watched them rebuffed. It was pathetic." During last year's invasion, both American and British forces again used uranium-tipped shells, leaving whole areas so "hot" with radiation that only military survey teams in full protective clothing can approach them. No warning or medical help is given to Iraqi civilians; thousands of children play in these zones. The "coalition" has refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to send experts to assess what Rokke describes as "a catastrophe".

Iraq was not allowed to clean up the battlefields. Since 1990 incidence of cancer has risen tenfold and experts predict that if the present upward curve persists, before the decadeis out, 44% of Iraq's population could develop cancer.

Economic sanctions have ensured doctors and nurses are not paid adequately. Teachers, for instance, have had their salaries cut from $400 to $3.00 a month. That is NOT a typo. there are no desks or chairs in classrooms and the teacher and students cmmonly share one textbook. Contrast this to well equipped schools where the students were provided with individual textbooks, milk, hummus, fresh fruit, and vitamin supplements and cooling, heating and sanitation equipment was present and working in all schools.

Due to lack of spare parts for agricultural equipment and drugs for treating illness in livestock, the farming industry is in crisis. Due to heavy bombardment soil erosion and salinity are significant concerns. Foot and Mouth disease is present and threatenign to spread to otehr countries if it hasn't already. The plant which produced vaccines for this diseaase was closed due to, you guessed it, possible 'dual usage'. Imports from abroad face the same refrigeration and transportation problems as mentioned before.

So that's the health, education and environment of a poulation nailed.

Denis Halliday, the former head of the UN humanitarian program in Iraq resigned in protest, saying he could no longer oversee "an immoral and illegal sanctions policy" his successor, von Sponeck, along with the ehad of the World Food Program also resigned in protest of the sanctions. Such actions are unprecedented.

It's estimated that over 500,000 Iraqi children are dead as a direct result of these sanctions.

The word genocide has been used by people such as halliday who tend to use such words with caution, and Not to inflame or sensationalise.

The sanctions decimated the weakest of Iraq's population, they didn't touch Saddam or his minions and their privileged lifestyle, instead, they strengthened hi position as the average Iraqi supported his anti-American stance all the more because of the breathtaking cruelty of the sanctions.



It started off as a "What if". I'm not saying I have answers or what I think is right, I'm not saying I agree or I disagree with the war, I only said "what if". I knew it would probably stick in people's throats and certainly it almost looked as if I might be in danger of getting a boot up the backside, but I want to expound a little. This was the comment which started it all:



"Of course, this was entirely predictable given the current exacerbation of what already was a serious problem. Western foreign policy long ago sowed the seeds we are now reaping. It's a terrifying prospect...Sadly..and alarmingly, there are those among us who STILL believe that the military can conquer terrorism. Plainly..(and throughout history it's been evident) it can't be done. People who against all evidence feel passionately that fighting illegal and unjust wars is actually going to make things better.
Sod the posturing and lunatic fantasies. If they don't accept Bin laden's truce they're insane, ....the refusal to do so will only give more grist to their mill...Spain's decision, in my opinion was an act of political maturity."

This was just a "What if???" genre of musing.
 

gardenweasel

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kma

kma

as a middle of the road guy in this debate i`m just curious.....

where do your statistics regarding iraqi lieracy rates and health care prior to "90"?....just curious....

did the literacy rate include women?....

as far as the first war was concerned,what did you expect the world to do?....sit by and let saddam take kuwait?.....and the sanctions were put in place by THE U.N....not the u.s.....after the war....as leverage to press for iraqi disarmament...and to discourage saddam from continuing his quest for ultimate power in the middle east....and the war was a u.n. operation....under u.n. auspices.........and while i`m on that point....

let us not forget about the french and german provided nuclear reactor " Osirak"( the reactor supplied by the french, and
with hot cells supplied to iraq by the germans for reprocessing its HEU irradiated fuel) with the clearly stated intention of saddam of developing nuclear weapons to destroy israel and make iraq the main power in the mideast & arab world. ....if he`d had nukes when he went into kuwait,he`d probably still be there...and we`d be in a similar position to the n.korean situation we now find ourselves in.....with unstable dictators having their fingers on the ultimate button...

saddam had referred to his having nuclear weapons circa 1980 as the "sword of Nebuchadnezzar" to be used to destroy Iraq's foes and restore the splendor of babylon to the arab world....

and let us also not forget saddam lobbing scuds into israel as they sat on their hands and did nothing.....if the reactor hadn`t been destroyed,it could easily have been nuclear bombs thudding into israel instead of poorly guided scuds....what was the provocation for that?.......

he wanted israel to respond so he could start some sort of holy war and throw the entire middle east into a bloodbath.....


and i see no mention in your article of the ecological disaster created by iraq setting fire to all the kuwaiti oil wells when saddam was driven back to iraq....you mention the d.u. issue....not the oil wells....



your article makes it sound like the sanctions happened in some sort of vacuum without any provocation....the oil for food program was started in "97"to try and alleviate the crisis to iraqi civilians..and admittedly,the u.s. and britain resisited any assistance to iraq....... but again,that has turned out to be rife with corruption..thanks to the u.n.`s lax attitude and saddam`s ...i repeat...saddam`s corruption.....

i try and be fair...kma,it doesn`t sound like you are.....next time give both sides of the issue.....not taking a shot at you...you gave some good info...but it was very slanted...

i`m not happy with the suffering of the iraqi people....hopefully things will get much better now that saddam is gone.....he being the most compelling reason for iraqi suffering over the last 20 odd years...


let`s be fair and give a large portion of the blame to the one who richly deserves it.....
 
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djv

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There is some truth to what is laying around on the ground there from the first war. We have GI's getting sick but there not sure from what. In fact did that not happen in 91 war. Our GI's got sick from some of our own making.
 

homedog

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Originally posted by homedog
Your argument about using negotiation is legitimate in some of the cases you named but not with radical Islamic extremists.
Exactly what is their grievance? If it was as easy as "we'll stay on our side of the world and you stay on yours", I would agree with negotiation. Unfortunately it is not.
The Islamic terrorists grievance is our way of life. They despise it. Would you propose that we negotiate on this?
These people can't be negotiated with. There is no reasoning in their motiThanks for your post and not trying to knock you personally, but negotiation in this case is not an option.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CryBoy
My god! This is scary. Scary to think that there is no solution to this insanity.

Yes it is Cryboy. There are solutions however. But, they are not pallatable to most.
 

Marco

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I was reading KMA's last posting about the depleted uranium....djv spoke about the same thing as I was thinking when I read that post of KMA's....

...that we had all these troops come back a dozen years ago with ailments and didn't know what was causing all this.....they were thinking maybe Saddam unleashed some silent chemical that was the culprit......maybe in fact it was all the DU scattered around that could have been at fault....couldn't actually see the government coming forward if it was, I would fully expect a coverup as is the usual case in these matters.....

what studies have been done on these DU shells.....how safe are they.....user friendly?

This all reminds me of, I believe it was Salmen Rushdie, author of Satanic Verses......came out with a book in the early eighties, pissed off a bunch of arabs......shah of Iran put a bounty on his head....to this day the bounty hasn't been lifted, and he still has like most of the arab world pissed at him ready to kill him on the spot....I think all that is about correct, correct me if I got some of the facts or spelling wrong.....

Christ, this guy is going to have some arab's great-grandchild looking to kill him.....how do you reason with that?
 

djv

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??? 1991 plays into now. Please remember he was the same SOB for years before he invaded Kuwait. And we backed him. What if we never backed him?
 
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