Ralph Nadar

acehistr8

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Well thats about the most moronic thing I have ever heard. One of the things I love about America is that everyones heritage makes them different people. Your heritage makes you who you are. Your heritage shapes your view on a lot of things. I dont have to say "I'm voting against these trade tariffs because I'm Canadian" but I can say "I'm voting against these trade tariffs because as someone whose family is from there I have learned XYZ about this issue." How do you even draw this distinction. Have all your views on every single issue in no way shape or form been changed or influenced by your heritage? Sorry but I dont want to be voting the same as my neighbor just because we are both Americans. Hes a Chinese professor who came here initially from China and I like the idea that he can maybe open my mind to new ideas on policies like world trade or international trade.

How do you even decide which side of the issue is "right" for "Americans" to vote for?

So we should all drop in line with no regard to where we came from, no regard to our heritage and no regard to how that shapes the issues in our own mind - and vote on one basis alone and thats under a big banner as Americans? Appropriate comment on your part, talk about Nazis....
 
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djv

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Doc I like haveing some fun with you. But I think latley your loseing it. To many of those 80 hour work weeks.
MR H 10 I wonder how you and the 3% of Arab citizens in this country feal everyday with those eyes on you. And the ones you dont see but know are there. I still remember what we did to the Japanese in WW ll. They were all quilty with out any charges and put in camps. It shows how wrong a government can be at times.
 

dr. freeze

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good grief if you don't think one should vote with America in mind first and foremost than you have lost it

simple good citizenry requires one to vote what is best for the country...regardless of one's views.....

is patriotism really this dead?
 

acehistr8

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Seriously, what an a-hole, this guy puts his life in danger for this country and you think patriotism is about how you vote? Man, patriotism is about the act of voting, people who VOTE are American and are supporting this democracy and are supporting this country by participating in the process - NO MATTER WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

Talk about Nazis doc, you sound like one right now! "simple good citizenry requires one to vote what is best for the country...regardless of one's views....." That sounds like it was taken right out of Nazi propaganda! "DONT VOTE AS THE INDIVIDUAL YOU ARE, vote as an American, for America with America first in your mind. Dont vote thinking of your family, or your children, or the issues you believe in, vote America first in your mind, not because you agree with the issues, vote with all of America because you live in America." Do you really think Omar or any of the rest of the 300 million people ever forget they live in America. That reeks of communism or nazism, one of the two. Who decides what is good for this country Doc, you?

There is virtually no issue you could mention, NOT ONE, that is black and white like that, where all Americans should vote the same way. HELLO, THAT IS WHY WE LIVE IN AMERICA, NOT SOME THIRD WORLD COMMUNIST HELL HOLE. I for one sure as hell dont want to live in a country where everyone thinks and votes the same way. Tell you what, since all of us should "vote with America in mind first and foremost" and I should vote for whats best for America regardless of my personal views, why dont you tell me how I as an American should vote on these issues, you know, as an AMERICAN:

Farm Subsidies
Missile Defense
Free Trade
Health Care
Abortion
Taxes
Use of military
Medicare
Social Security reform

Also as an American, what kind of foreign and domestic policy should I support? Is there some book I should read about which way to vote on issues as an "American"? I vote every year, so lets say on the recent spat over involvement in Iraq, how should I vote as an "American" or what kind of candidate should I support? You said everyone should vote with America first in their mind, so is involvement good or bad for Americans?
 
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djv

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What I wish I would see in my life time. At least another 15% of Americans vote. It's a dam shame that only 50 to 55% of eligible voters do vote. Are the rest just lazy. Or given up because all politicians do seem the same. Say one thing, do another. It's not that hard to get a absentee ballot if you cant get there. And polls are open most places from 7 am, to 8 pm. Best place to live and that many dont give a chit to even vote. I have a hunch they complain the loudest to. Sad.
 

acehistr8

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djv said:
What I wish I would see in my life time. At least another 15% of Americans vote. It's a dam shame that only 50 to 55% of eligible voters do vote. Are the rest just lazy. Or given up because all politicians do seem the same. Say one thing, do another. It's not that hard to get a absentee ballot if you cant get there. And polls are open most places from 7 am, to 8 pm. Best place to live and that many dont give a chit to even vote. I have a hunch they complain the loudest to. Sad.
djv, I mean mark this day down because man I couldnt agree with you more. I know we dont often see eye to eye politically, but everything you said I agree 110% with. When I hear people in a bar or talking with friends bitching about some policy or another, I ask who they voted for. Half they time they never voted. Lazy is a polite way to put it. Great post.
 

Terryray

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random thoughts

random thoughts

Hey, I'm part English, German, French-Canadian and Chinese.
who should I vote for?:D


Actually, low vote turnout I think shows how healthy the electorate/country is. A terrfic system works like Switzerland. Fine country runs on it's own no matter who's in office. Most Swiss can't name their president or representative (there are better things in life to know), few show up to vote---and when they do it's usually to say "no".


US isn't too far behind. If everyone suddenly got concerned about damn politics and voted in droves, then that would indicate the country is in a heck of a mess!


Our Founding Fathers wanted a one party system. Many lamented when two started. But by most democratic measures, ours isn't very two-party.


America has a single unbroken political tradition. Unlike countries in Europe. Every American agrees on simple things, Like "I got rights" and "anyone can be President". No Labor or party for nobles.


I was visiting Woodrow Wilson's house in DC once and a Swede remarked, after we watched some docu on Wilson (a huge baseball and movie fan, by the way) that it is very strange Eisenhower was inspired by Wilson "because isn't he Republican and Wilson Democrat?"


Like it makes any difference after 30 years! Well, such a thing does matter someplaces..



Voter participation decline since 1972 is largely an statistical illusion due to Census Bureau's decision that year to change and use voter-age population as a denominator instead of voter eligible population.



but by any measure more are voting now than did many times in the mid 1800s. Tho not before 1820 when 80% voted--- but only male property owners could do it then.
 

dawgball

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I also agree with you, djv, but I can't just leave it at that without a jab.

Posted by djv: I have a hunch they complain the loudest to.

And I was sure you voted!:tongue
 

Chanman

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Originally posted by djv MR H 10 I wonder how you and the 3% of Arab citizens in this country feal everyday with those eyes on you. And the ones you dont see but know are there. I still remember what we did to the Japanese in WW ll. They were all quilty with out any charges and put in camps. It shows how wrong a government can be at times.

Just a few points...DR may be wrong in a lot of person's views, but he was commenting on voting as a concerned citizen and not bringing in one's minority status. At least thats what I thought. Why do the politicians pander to the minority vote- because they vote for the candidate based on race, Black,Hispanic,etc.-IMHO. Sorry if it offended, but I don't think he meant to offend.

Nice that this thread does not get outta hand, but what happened to agree to disagree? I wish more would vote, but if they are that lazy or uncaring maybe it is better they stay abstain.
And djv- you can't put our standards on the way ppl acted in the 40's. Of course it was wrong to intern the Japanese Americans, but what ethnic group hasn't been discriminated against-especially the Native Americans? Out prisoner camps were somewhat better than the Axis. Remember the mortality rate from Asia as compared to Europe? Makes me wonder sometimes "Is there anything our Govt does that is right"? Even if you disagree with the process, at least hellah and redsfann are voting.

*TerryRay, DTB: Phase1 completed- maintain surveillance and objectives as before*-
Asian Population Surges in County

At least half the residents of seven cities are Asian Americans, study finds.By K. Connie Kang and David Pierson, Times Staff Writers
In a testament to the changing makeup of the Southland, a report released Wednesday found that for the first time, Asian Americans now constitute at least half the population of seven Los Angeles County cities.

In 1990, only Monterey Park had an Asian majority. But according to the study by the Asian Pacific American Legal Center, Asians now make up 61% of the population in Cerritos, 58% in Walnut, 52% in Rowland Heights and 50% in San Gabriel, San Marino and Rosemead.
All but Cerritos are in the San Gabriel Valley, which experienced a 20% increase in Asian population between 1990 and 2000, according to the study.

:wall:
 

hellah10

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hey i dont break the law....and i pay my taxes...and fawk, i even fought in war that i didnt believe in....and u have the audacity to say this to me??? i believe ive earned to speak and think freely....u nor anybody else shouldnt tell me who to vote for...

bush it out the door in 2004....:thefinger
 

hellah10

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lmao - chanman, if you think that intimidate's me....then you need to reevaluate your thinking. I could care less what people think of the arabs...Im one person that can only speak for myself....you show me a website...woohoo...good for you..for every site you show me, I can show you 10 on anti-isreal sites....

dont waste your time trying to crack on me, cuz im gonna laugh and ignore you :rolleyes:
 

acehistr8

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hellah10 said:
hey i dont break the law....and i pay my taxes...and fawk, i even fought in war that i didnt believe in....and u have the audacity to say this to me??? i believe ive earned to speak and think freely....u nor anybody else shouldnt tell me who to vote for...
Amen man. Anyone that stands a post and puts his life on the line protecting my freedoms earns the right in my book to, well, pretty much do whatever the fawk they want.
 

Chanman

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IMG_4244-copy-1_X055.gif


So sorry GI. I was@ work and didn't have time to elaborate, but I think you mistook my post. I didn't mean to offend and wasn't trying to intimidate anyone. Hellah you always seem to bring up Israel, the Army, etc. I posted that link cause I figured if you are gonna get mad- at least have a reason. FWIW- I did not even read that thread. Besides you enlisted and they called you for active duty. So that means you are always right and can't be wrong? At any rate I slap harder than Granny.

I'm pretty sure I'll vote for Nader or Kerry before Bush. Not that anyone cares- just my 2 cents. Alright we'll ignore each other.
 

gardenweasel

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hellah and ace

hellah and ace

guys...chill out.....i can`t speak for the doctor....but chan was obviously just trying to take the edge off a thread that was beginning to take a nasty turn...

hellah...kudos for serving our country...even if you didn`t believe in the cause...you have every right to vote as you please...being of lebanese descent,i understand your stance on the middle east....and your rationale for voting with that situation playing an important role in your political bent...many americans aren`t real crazy about muslimism...and the arab middle east...that`s not hard to understand.........maybe things are painted with to broad a brush...that`s life,i guess...i think everybody`s a bit touchy on the subject...so multi-faceted...not a black and white issue...and not everyone has as personal a connection to the subject matter as you do....i hear you...

again,i thank you for your service....to your country....and to all us madjacks football guys that depend on you for Mac guidance during football season...WELL DONE ON BOTH FRONTS..



ace....????...a little harsh,man...i understand that you vehemenly disagree with dr.....i didn`t agree with everyting the dr. said either......but a..hole?...nazi?...moron?.....

a little condescending...don`t you think?...

you are usually sharp as a tack....why the vitriol?...guys disagree...without getting personal...the middle east is the hotbed issue of our time...guys are gonna differ on the subject...

as far as the voting issue...if someone chooses not to vote,that`s their right also...our political "duopoly" disenfranchises many in this country....many think that extreme right or extreme left isn`t much choice at all.......unfortunately,that`s usually what we`re offered...



hellah has the right to vote as he pleases...others have the right to be conscientious objectors if they don`t like the choices....and they have every right to bitch about it..........



..voting is optional....bitching is optional...just because you choose not to vote doesn`t mean that you have no right to be unhappy with the choices available...

abstaining from the process can be every bit as informed an option as voting...

and disagreeing doesn`t make you an a..hole...a nazi or a moron...
 
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Marco

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When I hear that "people who don't vote have no right to bitch" speech a few things come to mind...

I guess this assumes that if 100% of the people voted there would be no bitching, because obviously they would have voted in the correct candidate and life would be perfect.....

Maybe the people who are bitching actually voted for the correct candidate but the majority of the voters voted in some jerk that can't run the country.....so you end up with people in bars bitching about some policy or another....you ask them who they voted for, and they say the other candidate.....

as if we just lost what amounts to being a coin flip, and we just happen to get lousy presidents and leaders every year because not enough people came out and voted for the guy who didn't make it into office who obviously was the better choice????

I must be one of the ones who you guys refer to as the ones who bitch and don't vote.....Yes I bitch, and no, I don't vote......I had this little argument with my parents years ago .......

They had the same attitude as some I have seen here, that regardless who the candidates are or what they stand for that you must go out and vote for one of them....

BULL$HIT!......If I think that all the candidates blow do I really need to try and figure out which one is the lesser of two evils? What if neither candidate supports any of my beliefs about policies and the way this country is run? I'm supposed to vote for someone who I don't agree with just for something to do?

People who don't vote have the absolute right to bitch if they feel the candidates are all incompetent............I'm not going feel any better about this country with the choices I have to vote for this year than I have in any other years past.......

The only person who I would have voted for at any time during my voting tenure would have been Ross Perot.....only because he seemed like the type who would have actually cut through all the bull$hit and got down to the business of running the country....he had the balls to say what was on his mind and didn't spend time on all the rhetoric that the normal politicians rely on. If he would have gotten in I think a lot of things would have been shaken up, maybe he was a little too radical or just too plain brutally honest for most people to handle.....this approach in all likelihood would have earned him an assassin's bullet.....too many would have been put on the hot seat had he made it into office....

Personally, I don't feel much is going to change with the election of one candidate over another one......what needs to change is THE SYSTEM.

Too much graft and corruption in the political field.....politicians are allowed to receive large contributions by special interest groups in the same country where policemen on patrol are required to pay for something as trivial as a cup of coffee???

Too much bribery.....kickbacks......basic self-interested politicians trying to come across like they're going to wave a wand and straighten everything out.....

Too much money and time spent on EMOTIONAL issues like flag burning or prayer in public school......

A lot of people tell you that freedom comes from the flag.....HELLO!.....your freedom comes from the constitution and the bill of rights....there are 190 some countries.....most if not all have a flag.....are they all equally free just because they have some piece of cloth waving on a pole? NO.....they fought in wars and some of them died also, the ones who came back had the same restrictions on thier freedoms because thier country's rules and laws and personal freedoms sucked......they still had a flag when they got back......there was a time in this country when women couldn't vote and blacks and minorities had to use separate bathrooms than whites or just plain weren't served in some restaurants for nothing more than thier color......some of those people fought in wars the US fought in......whose freedom were they fighting for? When people tell you the flag gives you freedom they're full of $hit. All they are playing is the patriot card, politicians love the patriot card and use it to the fullest.....

Prayer in public school is simple: If you have children in school and you want them to say a prayer, then send them to the religious school of your choice, where bibles are studied and religion is taught. Public school is for learning basics like math and how to read and write, history, science and the like. Put the prayer in parochial school and leave the public schools alone.

The latest emotional issue seems to be all this fuss over the gender of two people getting married........Live and let live people......I'm not gay, I don't understand it, my rights end where another persons begins.....I don't care what two consenting adults do in thier own bedroom......maybe I still live in a free country.....My country has a flag so I MUST be free....

Some other poster mentioned in the gay thread that if we could do whatever we wanted to do then he should be free to just go out and rob a bank.....I think he's trying to make an analogy but he's forgetting that aspect of CONSENTING ADULTS.....two gays or lesbians may be consenting adults, banks, the last time I checked, didn't consent to being robbed....

Too much freedom of U.S. politicians in world events and too much freedom in spending U.S. tax dollars wherever and however they see fit.....Restrictions have to be placed on these......the American public needs to be informed of how thier money is being spent, if they knew all the crap that goes on behind closed doors they'd be shocked and rightfully so......

As cynical as I may sound, with the current system of corruption and unchecked power, it really won't matter who I vote for because the system hasn't changed, only the people who shuffle though the system will change....

while your cities and thier infrastructures are rusting and aging to pieces, your politicians will be raking in those dollars under the table and spending your tax dollars fighting some other country's wars and then rebuilding all the bridges we levelled......

while your national debt is spiralling out of control and you wonder if there will be any social security left when you reach retirement age, while all of the concrete issues like health care and unemployment or care for the elderly or other social issues are being neglected......isn't it nice to know your government is spending billions of dollars arguing over prayer in school or whether or not a flag is on fire????

Vote for whoever you want, I'm tired of being jerked-off by all the rhetoric politicians use, tired of seeing them bring up emotional issues and dodging the real issues that matter......they talk a pretty good game but none of them deliver.....pretty much just hollow, lofty promises......

Am I cynical? Yes, and I have every reason to be....
 

dr. freeze

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Welcome to "Nazi" America.....lmao....some documents have been on the books awhile fellas despite what your "opinions" tell you....despite the immature name calling, here is what our country has under law

The current citizenship oath:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law, and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, so help me God.
 

BobbyBlueChip

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dr. freeze said:
thanks goodness my Grandpa realized that and fought against the nazi's some 60 years ago.....

Do you find it a little bit funny that you're praising your grandpa for a service that Hellah had to perform in the last year. If you believe in Bush's fight so much, maybe you can go enlist yourself, freeze and help further our "freedoms."
 

JT

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Agree with Marco. If there is no viable canidate given then you what are you supposed to do? Write in vote I suppose but then you will be needled for it being a 'wasted' vote. As long as people hold that view I wonder if real change would ever happen. Freedom speech and paying your taxes gives you every right to whine.
Terryray, which canidate best represents Union, Catholic, English, French-Canuck, French and Irish? To be honest, can't say I agree with your opinion on things being so great as the reason for low voter turn out. I feel it is apathy and cynicism in our specific case. Just an opinion though.
hellah10 has my respect as a veteran. As for GW, seems to have a great ease at sending our troops to battle but is it right that a Vietnam Vet who needs very serious surgery and was just classified 100% disabled should wait 6 months for benefits. 6 MONTHS!!???? Both parties are probably to blame no doubt for that.
Health Care. Forget homos getting hitched, boobs being flashed on TV, etc. I went thru a f*cking labor strife for almost 5 months over this shit. Both parties should get together and solve this problem. Can't be good for the economy when citizens/businesses are spending more and more and more on this crap. Already knee deep overall in consumer/govt debts.
Personally I like Edwards of the major 3. Feel Nader is a ego-maniac at this point and would be better served doing fund-raising and doing things behind the scenes at this point.
 
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