Reform the American people want

[Turfgrass]

We now have the most expansive entitlement and wealth redistribution program in the history of our nation pushed into law by one political party.

Obama and Pelosi believe that when Americans are properly educated as to the genius of their plan, massive resistance will turn into quiet acceptance and, eventually, gratitude.

Now we know the left doesn't like to handle controversy with facts and rational thought. They will do what they've always done ... rely on attacks. Right now it's looking like leftist attacks against ObamaCare critics will follow this path:

Opponents of ObamaCare are racists. These people are only upset because this great new entitlement program was brought to us by someone-not-white. Furthermore, many of the poor, poor pitiful poor people who don't have health insurance are minorities and evil white people just don't want them to have health coverage.

Opponents of ObamaCare are nothing less than out-of-control enraged right wingers who need to be feared.

ObamaZombies will paint the anger of opponents as a threat to public safety and will start making demands that something be done to counter or contain this anger.

In short .. there will be no legitimate criticism of ObamaCare. Opponents are either racists and bigots or are out of control dangerous lunatics who are likely to pick up guns and start randomly firing at any moment.

 

[Skulnik]

We now have the most expansive entitlement and wealth redistribution program in the history of our nation pushed into law by one political party.

Obama and Pelosi believe that when Americans are properly educated as to the genius of their plan, massive resistance will turn into quiet acceptance and, eventually, gratitude.

Now we know the left doesn't like to handle controversy with facts and rational thought. They will do what they've always done ... rely on attacks. Right now it's looking like leftist attacks against ObamaCare critics will follow this path:

Opponents of ObamaCare are racists. These people are only upset because this great new entitlement program was brought to us by someone-not-white. Furthermore, many of the poor, poor pitiful poor people who don't have health insurance are minorities and evil white people just don't want them to have health coverage.

Opponents of ObamaCare are nothing less than out-of-control enraged right wingers who need to be feared.

ObamaZombies will paint the anger of opponents as a threat to public safety and will start making demands that something be done to counter or contain this anger.

In short .. there will be no legitimate criticism of ObamaCare. Opponents are either racists and bigots or are out of control dangerous lunatics who are likely to pick up guns and start randomly firing at any moment.

Good post, Liberals don't see this or refuse to acknowledge.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

We now have the most expansive entitlement and wealth redistribution program in the history of our nation pushed into law by one political party.

Obama and Pelosi believe that when Americans are properly educated as to the genius of their plan, massive resistance will turn into quiet acceptance and, eventually, gratitude.

Now we know the left doesn't like to handle controversy with facts and rational thought. They will do what they've always done ... rely on attacks. Right now it's looking like leftist attacks against ObamaCare critics will follow this path:

Opponents of ObamaCare are racists. These people are only upset because this great new entitlement program was brought to us by someone-not-white. Furthermore, many of the poor, poor pitiful poor people who don't have health insurance are minorities and evil white people just don't want them to have health coverage.

Opponents of ObamaCare are nothing less than out-of-control enraged right wingers who need to be feared.

ObamaZombies will paint the anger of opponents as a threat to public safety and will start making demands that something be done to counter or contain this anger.

In short .. there will be no legitimate criticism of ObamaCare. Opponents are either racists and bigots or are out of control dangerous lunatics who are likely to pick up guns and start randomly firing at any moment.

I don't think the bill is that great but its better than what we had. Don't you think we should spend some money on keeping American's healthy as opposed to killing civilians around the world?

You have to admit a large amount of the opposition is race related. Explain to me the tea party please. Its a race love fest. Were these people upset when we were spending trillions of dollars on wars? Now they are up in arms. Give me a break.

 

[Turfgrass]

To answer your question: Were these people upset when we were spending trillions of dollars on wars?

Yes I think they were.

I think Tea Partiers are the result of overly long wars, stimulus spending to save corporations that are pet projects of political parties, and healthcare reform.

What you?re seeing are people who are fed up with our government spending like drunkin? sailors. Nancy Pelosi said that ObamaCare would only "kick open the door?" So what's next after the door is kicked open?

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

To answer your question: Were these people upset when we were spending trillions of dollars on wars?

Yes I think they were.

I think Tea Partiers are the result of overly long wars, stimulus spending to save corporations that are pet projects of political parties, and healthcare reform.

What you?re seeing are people who are fed up with our government spending like drunkin? sailors. Nancy Pelosi said that ObamaCare would only "kick open the door?" So what's next after the door is kicked open?

I have no problem with people who bitched about the wars and are now upset. I just think that a lot of people in these movements were pretty excited for our cowboy to round up them varmints and now they want us to watch our checkbooks.

 

[Turfgrass]

We were warned during the early years in the life of this country that this great American Republic would be endangered - the end would be in sight - when the people figured out they could use the ballot box to, in essence, steal from other people.

We're there, folks. We're now at the point where the majority of the people in this country use the government as a fist to beat the tax-paying minority into submission.

How do you fight this? Now we're at the point where the only way to defeat the parasite class is to have the producers turn out at the polls in even stronger numbers. The trouble is the moochers earn their living by voting. It's their livelihood. It's what they do to put more money in their pockets. For the producer class voting is an interruption in their productive routine. This must change. Producers must be as aware that they need to use the ballot box to protect their property as the moochers know they can use the ballot box to plunder.

 

[Chadman]

Turf, how do you explain those who pay taxes that are in favor of the reform? Why does it always have to be black and white (literally) to you and others?

Why do people have to be labeled a parasite to have a different opinion than you? Why don't those that have more in this country realize at least in part that part of the reason is because of the system we all live in, that has allowed them to prosper?

What about those that pay taxes - perhaps more than you, for instance - that feel they serve a greater good than just keeping for yourself, and the rest of citizens be damned?

I'm SO sick of this black and white, us against them, keep out of my stuff, but only help me when it helps me mentality.

A country is a country. The greater good is important, too. It can help everyone in many important ways. Our country has profited GREATLY in times when the tax system was far more penalizing to higher wage earners. Nothing is absolute.

And, situations change for people. People's situations change. What seems good now, can change dramatically, through no fault of your own.

You say YOU KNOW the left doesn't like to deal with controversy with rational thought and facts. Isn't that priceless. Thinking that you are the only one, because of your personal views, that own facts and rational thought. Everyone who doesn't agree with you be damned, are irrational, and have no facts. Seriously, maybe you should stop and think about that for a second. Is it possible there are facts and common sense in areas other than you personally believe? Or are you the only one that REALLY knows the right thing in all situations? I think this is very much part of the problem we find ourselves in... but you clearly don't...

 

[Turfgrass]

That?s the thing Chad; I don?t (literally) think it?s Black vs. White. To me it?s fiscal responsibility vs. Socialism. I never claimed to have all the facts, but I did throw out my generalizations.

As far as your question about those who pay taxes that are in favor of the reform. As the House passed ObamaCare into law, 56% of Americans did not support the legislation, so of the less than half that wanted ObamaCare? what was the percentage that pays taxes and were for it? My bet is? its kinda low.

The facts are we do live it a country that allows us to succeed, but in case you haven?t heard?we?re broke.

But hey, that?s cool?I don?t even know what?s in the bill; I?ve never read the 2000+ pages. Maybe it?ll cost less than they imagine. Maybe it will lower deficits; maybe it?ll be the thing we need to get the country back on track, but I have little hope of that happening.

Why do I have so little hope? Why do I think that Obamacare will end up costing astoundingly more than what the Democrats believe ... history.

If you can find me ONE government program that actually cost what it was initially intended to cost, please let me know. In the meantime, I can give you an example of one government program that cost us way more than initially estimated.

Medicare. Back in 1965 when Congress wanted to establish a national Medicare program, Part A of the program was estimated to cost $9 billion by 1990. Well I'm sure you know what happened when 1990 came around. A program that was estimated to cost $9 billion actually cost $67 billion. Even after taking into consideration inflation and other factors, the actual cost of Medicare Part A ended up being 165% higher than originally predicted.

Just one year later, in 1966 we got a new Medicare program. With all of its parts now combined, was supposed to cost $12 billion in 1990. Again ... when 1990 rolled around, the actual cost was $110 billion. The estimates were off by a factor of ten!

Okay .. so that was just Medicare, but what the heck, let's go ahead and take a look at Medicaid as well. In 1987 Congress estimated that Medicaid would cost less than $1 billion in 1992. Well 1992 came and went, and so did a $17 billion price tag. Changes to the Medicare home benefit in 1988 .. the projected costs for 1993 was $4 billion. The actual cost: $10 billion.

Although it?s too late for this, but if you want more affordable health care, turn the free market loose. That, however, doesn't work that well if, like our president, you consider the free market to be "the enemy."

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Chad How could you call it anything but the parasitic population????

Get a dictionary look up
--redistribution
--social programs
--socialism
--then look at at the voting demographics of Da Base--

or do you think its -we the people (tax payers) who can't wait for them to raise our taxes-change or healthcare-- so we can accomodate the deadbeats.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Turf
The next decade will be very interesting. I never thought I'd see the time when your normal joe taxpayor would be protesting as that has always been the fringes stomping grounds.

--It will be interesting to see the Da Base and their party try and take it from the productive.
This is going to get interesting--very soon.

I look for states rights to come to forefront and to each their own.

 

[gardenweasel]

2 items give this sham of a healthcare plan away...a dead giveaway....

1)the exempted themselves from their own plan...not one obama backer has explained that...nor CAN they explain it...the goal is universal/single payer...they`ll regulate private insurers into oblivion...set rates/profits...removing restrictions like pre-existing conditions or making premiums equal(ask yourself this..if you were involved in a severe auto accident,wouldn`t your premiums go up?....then logic dictates that a pre-existing condition creates more risk and higher cost to insurers)....... you just can`t possibly provide all this stuff and have government impose all these ridiculous rules and regulations and stay in business...

and again...even when they eventually impose single payer,the upper echelon feds will be exempt...

2)the bulk of this program doesn`t take effect until 2013.....why?....why 3 years?...that`s crazy considering the bum`s rush the administration foisted on the citizens to hurry this mess into law....

"we can`t wait"...what about all the pitiful souls the government brought forward as examples of people desperately needing healthcare now?.....every one from reid to obama had a "poor soul" who was desperate for help now....

it`s bullshit ....the reason they aren`t moving forward before the republicans can retake the congress in november is because if they instituted this chinese firedrill in real time,obama wouldn`t stand a snowball`s chance in hell of getting reelected in 2012....regardless of how lame a challenger the republicans field....

they`re rolling the dice and hoping they can block repeal....

and wtf ever happened to medicaid?....can`t these destitute folks get on medicaid?...if they can`t,it`s because they`re to well off to qualify...

and this is just the tip of the sword....immigration reform(to ensure 10 million more democratic voters are on the rolls)...cap and trade(to complete the takeover of our energy sector)...more businesses will fail or wont be able to compete with countries like china....therefore,more businesses will abandon the country... the dems will choke off any recovery with sharply higher energy costs(gas has already gone up a dollar since obama took office).... higher electric rates for everyone...

tip o` the sword...the worst is yet to come...

 

[Chadman]

Turf, you have many good points, I agree with many and have plenty of concerns about the current proposal. I guess I fall in the camp that was completely frustrated by the lack of movement on the issue, and continued stonewalling by one side of things.

You mention the free market. If I'm not mistaken, hasn't the free market taken us to where we are now? Believe it has. And where would it have taken us down the road, unfettered? I think we all know the costs would have become more problematic, to put it mildly. Not saying this is the answer, but it is AN answer. And I do think it can be adjusted and fixed (if need be) down the road, like most legislation.

And the 56% number you throw out, it's really just a number. I don't think anyone really has much of an idea what is in the bill and how it will ultimately affect us. There are so many different ways to ask the questions about healthcare and the current situation, that I don't think it can be accurately measured by popular response. If you ask people overall, do we need healthcare reform, the number would be much higher than 56%. Most republicans say we need it, too. They disagree about how to do it, but if left to them, there would be no reform at all. You mention history - we have learned from that on this point, too, haven't we?

 

[rusty]

2 items give this sham of a healthcare plan away...a dead giveaway....

1)the exempted themselves from their own plan...not one obama backer has explained that...nor CAN they explain it...the goal is universal/single payer...they`ll regulate private insurers into oblivion...set rates/profits...removing restrictions like pre-existing conditions or making premiums equal(ask yourself this..if you were involved in a severe auto accident,wouldn`t your premiums go up?....then logic dictates that a pre-existing condition creates more risk and higher cost to insurers)....... you just can`t possibly provide all this stuff and have government impose all these ridiculous rules and regulations and stay in business...

and again...even when they eventually impose single payer,the upper echelon feds will be exempt...

2)the bulk of this program doesn`t take effect until 2013.....why?....why 3 years?...that`s crazy considering the bum`s rush the administration foisted on the citizens to hurry this mess into law....

"we can`t wait"...what about all the pitiful souls the government brought forward as examples of people desperately needing healthcare now?.....every one from reid to obama had a "poor soul" who was desperate for help now....

it`s bullshit ....the reason they aren`t moving forward before the republicans can retake the congress in november is because if they instituted this chinese firedrill in real time,obama wouldn`t stand a snowball`s chance in hell of getting reelected in 2012....regardless of how lame a challenger the republicans field....

they`re rolling the dice and hoping they can block repeal....

and wtf ever happened to medicaid?....can`t these destitute folks get on medicaid?...if they can`t,it`s because they`re to well off to qualify...

and this is just the tip of the sword....immigration reform(to ensure 10 million more democratic voters are on the rolls)...cap and trade(to complete the takeover of our energy sector)...more businesses will fail or wont be able to compete with countries like china....therefore,more businesses will abandon the country... the dems will choke off any recovery with sharply higher energy costs(gas has already gone up a dollar since obama took office).... higher electric rates for everyone...

tip o` the sword...the worst is yet to come...

I don't know GW there plan is obviously a Gov't option plan.I would of loved to of seen a Gov't option plan in the reform but it would of caused to much opposition.

You can't fault them for taken the better plan.
They tried to include the American people but there was too much wining.

 

[bleedingpurple]

I do not know of many people calling opponents of the health care bill racist, biggots, or gun firing bastards. Maybe the conservatives against the bill just have that guilty conscience..

On to the bill.. I do not know much that is in it but I believe the only way to have success is to cut down the costs.. The cost of MRIs, EKGs, meds, assistive devices, malpracatice insurance, operations, and emergency room visits etc are astronomical and will only get worse and from what I hear this bill does not limit costs.. So being mostly liberal I am not a big fan of the bill if it does not do that.. Funny thing is that when liberals were bitching about oil companies making record profits the neocons argued that businesses had the right to make as much profit as they could.. I guess health care and providers could argue the same.

What I don't like is that conservatives are blaming the current economic state on Obama and so forth.. Well I think the repubs did their part as well to get to this point and when they were in office they lacked the forsight to see it. Thats what happens when you have a complete idiot in office.

Now let me ask many this.. Lets say Obama and Pelosi constructed a great health care plan that was great for the county. DO you think the neocons would be for the bill? Or would they trash it because they are for the "party." I will choose the latter.

 

[Skulnik]

I do not know of many people calling opponents of the health care bill racist, biggots, or gun firing bastards. Maybe the conservatives against the bill just have that guilty conscience..


Bleeding Purple, how do you say that with a straight face, Rep. Lewis and Cleaver say racial slurs were thrown at them outside of the capital by Tea Party people, News outlets run with the story but their LIES can't be backed up, the RACISM angle is being EXPLOITED at every opportunity.

JMO.

 

[bleedingpurple]

I do not know of many people calling opponents of the health care bill racist, biggots, or gun firing bastards. Maybe the conservatives against the bill just have that guilty conscience..


Bleeding Purple, how do you say that with a straight face, Rep. Lewis and Cleaver say racial slurs were thrown at them outside of the capital by Tea Party people, News outlets run with the story but their LIES can't be backed up, the RACISM angle is being EXPLOITED at every opportunity.

JMO.

Wow... OK first I, I should say I don't know many people who call non racist opponents of the health care bill racists, biggots, or gun firning bastards.. You refer to Lewis and Clever, When did 2 people become "many?" They do not call all the tea partiers racist just some in the crowd who yelled racist slurs. How can you with a straight face think that there was no one in the crowd that didn't make racial slurs? :shrug: Look at the select few neo - cons on this board and the racist comments made here. Look up the history of some of these rallies..
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/545090/one_lump_of_racism_or_two_with_your_tea

 

[Skulnik]

Their claim wasn't backed up with many videos in the area, I wouldn't be suprised if the democrats were responsible for the latest reports of VIOLENCE on Democrat offices.


JMHO.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...010032402122.html?wprss=rss_politics/congress

 

[bleedingpurple]

Their claim wasn't backed up with many videos in the area, I wouldn't be suprised if the democrats were responsible for the latest reports of VIOLENCE on Democrat offices.


JMHO.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...010032402122.html?wprss=rss_politics/congress

Cant find many video with good audio that day.. I have read reports of people saying it was made up and some where people who did hear it.. It is hard to prove or disprove.. Even if it is not true you have those guys and Oberman calling them racist. Still not many.

As for the Violence on democratic offices? I don't know. Do you believe in the 9-11 conspiracy theories or just the ones that involve Dems?

 

[Turfgrass]

You mention the free market. If I'm not mistaken, hasn't the free market taken us to where we are now? Believe it has. And where would it have taken us down the road, unfettered? I think we all know the costs would have become more problematic, to put it mildly. Not saying this is the answer, but it is AN answer. And I do think it can be adjusted and fixed (if need be) down the road, like most legislation.

No, the free market has not taken us to where we are now, and if you though that you had a free market before you would be wrong.

What you had before, and more so now, was government involvement. Insurers are already regulated to the hilt. It's a basic fact, the more regulations there are, the fewer competitors there are. High taxes and regulations stifle competition everywhere. Every monopoly you can point to is a direct result of government intervention.

There's a reason large businesses ALWAYS support regulations, it's cheaper to deal with the regulatory tape than it is to go head to head in business when faced with a new competitor. Regulations effectively block competition since it's too expensive to start up.

Lasik laser eye surgery to correct vision problems is a good example of how the free market works. It is not covered by insurance, so people must pay for the procedure, so people shop around. If the price isn't right, fewer people elect to have the procedure done. With doctors competing for patients, prices have gone down while quality has gone up. That's what generally happens in free markets. When someone comes up with an innovative way of doing business, it is quickly imitated and improved on.

Why couldn?t we have tried some free market fixes? What was so wrong with letting insurance companies compete across state lines?

How about equalizing the tax laws so that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits?

As is it now, employer health insurance benefits are fully tax deductible, but individual health insurance is not. This is unfair, but the true goal was not to improve the quality of American health care ?but to control it! They had no desire whatsoever for free market participation. Remember ... Obama referred to the private sector as "the enemy." He's hardly going to look there for any solutions.

 

[Chadman]

Well, that's a pretty matter of fact way to talk about regulations, and I certainly don't think that philosophy is backed up by many of the economists and conservatives that I've seen talk and write about regulations. I don't recall the banks and investment firms welcoming regulative efforts. Oil companies? Really? Big insurance companies are welcoming more regulations? Really? These big companies, that you talk about - they spend billions of dollars lobbying FOR regulations on their businesses? Really?

Gee, I must have missed all that.

Now much of what you talk about is probably true, but again, you speak in absolutes, which I don't think are, well, absolute.

The major insurance companies - the really major ones - are in all states as it is. They don't compete, they just buy up the competition. They effectively control large segments of geographical areas in the country. Now of course my comment is not absolutely correct... pretty much just saying it as an absolute. Of course the big ones have to compete to a degree, but there's little real competition, I don't think. Not compared to many other sectors of the economy, and definitely not in areas so important to citizens. I would in theory have no problem allowing companies to compete across state lines, but honestly, to control costs, how could a one-payer system not better control costs in the truest sense, for instance? Allow everyone across the country to buy into a mass market collective of providers? There are many ways to look at this issue, and I don't agree with some of what you are saying. Some of it makes sense, but with all due respect, some of it doesn't wash.

I would say, checking my memory, that you are the first person I've ever seen that said big businesses prefer regulations on their business. I'm probably missing something, but maybe another free market at all costs supporter can back that up.

By the way, you say Obama labeled the private sector as "the enemy." Guess you are referring to his "behind enemy lines comment back in his organizer days. Hardly a comment on the economic private sector, but probably worth using as a non-literal talking point. For the record, the proposals you mentioned make a great deal of sense, and I think I would be for those things. Don't see why they wouldn't be good ideas. Can I ask why these things come up now, all of a sudden, and never did before? Why were these things not proposed by republicans when they had the majority? Why did we hear NOTHING from them whatsoever, other than to try to stop everything to do with reform, and then come up with these things to try to look like they really care about them? Why didn't any of them come up, after Clinton's efforts, and before Obama's?

I think I know why, but I'd be curious to hear the opposing idea.

 

[Chadman]

For the record, I did a little looking at this issue, and I can see your point on the regulation angle being a hindrance to some aspects of business competition. Which, in turn, hurts the consumer in price issues. So, in that sense, you are correct, turf. I guess it depends somewhat on what the regulations are, and if they are important in other ways to the consumer, because certainly not all regulations on business are bad for the consumer, and of course many protect the consumer and other businesses who operate properly, which helps honest and quality competition.