Rep. Murtha, can you spell V-i-e-t-n-a-m?

AR182

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i found this article interesting & i thought that i would post this since some here have compared this to viet nam....

Tuesday, February 20, 2007

Lt. Col. Rick Francona
According to recent remarks by Rep. John Murtha, he intends to cripple President Bush?s ?surge? plan in Iraq by placing numerous restrictions on how money can be spent, stating, ?They won?t be able to do the deployment. They won?t have equipment, they don?t have the training and they won?t be able to do the work. There?s no question in my mind. We have analyzed this and there?s no way this can be done.?

Perhaps the colonel ?Murtha is a retired U.S. Marine Corps reservist ? has forgotten the lessons we Vietnam veterans learned the hard way. You cannot prosecute a war effectively with interference from Washington. What he proposes, labeled the ?slow bleed? by Murtha?s opponents, is exactly the type of interference and micromanagement we faced 40 years ago in Southeast Asia.

During that conflict, there were so many conditional rules of engagement and outright restrictions on the use of military power that our forces were not only fighting the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces, but the bureaucracy inside the Beltway as well. For example, for years we were not permitted to bomb North Vietnamese targets north of 20 degrees north latitude ? even when the North Vietnamese Air Force built an airfield just north of the line.

When President Nixon finally unleashed American airpower in December 1972 (Operation Linebacker II), Air Force, Navy and Marine aircrews brought North Vietnam to its knees in a matter of days, only to be called off before delivering the final blow. Contrast that to the Gulf War. President Bush gave the Pentagon the mission ? defend Saudi Arabia and liberate Kuwait ? and let them execute it.

Mr. Murtha wants to restrict how specific monies can be spent, how troops are trained prior to deployment, how the services determine rotation policies and manage their retention programs, etc. He wants to require that the Defense Department allow combat veterans to have at least one year stateside before returning to the combat zone. An admirable goal, but these are decisions best left to those prosecuting the war. Marines normally deploy for seven months ? are they expected to also wait one year before redeployment? Where does this end? Will the Pentagon have to clear each troop movement with Congress?

The congressman also wants to prevent the services, particularly the Army and Marine Corps, from using the Stop Loss program, a program that allows the services to retain members on active duty to the full extent of their enlistment contract (the contact includes a reserve portion). In other words, he wants the military to stop using a legal, authorized force management tool.

In a surprising statement, Mr. Murtha called for the closure of the detention facility at Guantanamo (not sure what that has to do with Iraq) and the bulldozing of the Iraqi prison at Abu Ghraib. Can we assume he will allocate funds to build a new terrorist prison in his congressional district? As for Abu Ghraib, shouldn?t we allow the Iraqis to decide what to do with their facilities?

All of this boils down to congressional (political) micromanagement of the Defense Department?s conduct of a war ? all the things he no doubt complained about (or should have) when he was a Marine Corps officer.

Congratulations, Colonel ? you propose to do to the troops in Iraq what the Johnson and Nixon administrations did to us in Vietnam. I hope it doesn?t turn out the same way.
 

smurphy

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What, as opposed to the last 4 years in which everything has gone so well? It's not like this is out of the blue or anything. How long should Bush be allowed to squander human resources without being checked?

Murtha believes there is nothing more the US military can do, so ANY additional troops is a waste - regardless of how much beaurocratic interference exists.

This is yet another of the many articles which are setting up blame on the dems rather than the Prez for whatever failures come out of Iraq.
 

djv

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We did bring power to bare in Nam. But there was never a over all plan to win. (Sound like Iraq). That's why it went on for ever. And our power worked only to a point as it has in Iraq. There were no front lines as such. It was hit and run. It was take a area then leave it only to have enemy move back in.
We killed over 1.2 million Enemy Soldiers in Nam. it was not enough. And the term sky was falling we had put in our heads. Never took place. The North never took over the region like we were told they would. Now we trade with them and American companies have some small plants there. So after are loss of over 48000 soldiers and the enemy's loss. We will never know if it could have all been avoided. Just like Iraq. How many of ours and there's must die. With out knowing if you can break there 2000 years of killing each other.
 

Spytheweb

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The Bush plan is not to win

The Bush plan is not to win

it is to keep a foothold in the country. Build bases and keep a watch on oil and Iran, for Israel. The Dems bill will make that harder. If Bush wants the money he must sign it. I see Bush attacking Iran to get around it. I also think that if Bush attacks Iran, that this government will do anything to put their policies into action, even attack it's own countrymen, 9-11. The new American century said the government needed a like pearl harbor event to push it's foreign policy forward. I never thought about 9-11 and how the US government may have played a part until about a week ago. One thing that is funny, how can a 110 story building free fall in 10 seconds? There has never been a steel frame building that collapsed because of fire ever, but on 9-11 there were 3. In 1975 the North Tower of the WTC caught fire and burned for 3 hours, it did not fall down. Uncontrolled fire burns at 1200 degrees max, steel melts at 2750 degrees. Anyway Bush is in Iraq not because of freedom but because of the New World Order.
 

djv

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God how I hope when I'm dead and gone. You young guys don't fine that some of what spyweb said comes true. That's about when it would show up about 30 years out. It's always that way. I for one just cant believe anyone who cares about this country would be that nuts. Other then Cheney.
 
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smurphy

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God how I hope when I'm dead and gone. You young guys fine that some of what spyweb said comes true. That's about when it would show up about 30 years out. It's always that way. I for one just cant believe anyone who cares about this country would be that nuts. Other then Cheney.
Your views about Nam (and pretty much everything we do now) are so similar to my dad - who also served. What branch were in and where did you serve exactly?
 

djv

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smurphy Just catching up on all these post. I don't talk to much about it. And did a longer post on service some time back. Army 60/61. Was lucky and admit it. We were getting ready as much as for Castro as Nam. My 6 to 8 months in Nam according to our Government we were not even there. Not that Americans were not there. That what I was doing of course with others happen. We when discharged were still under orders to keep mouths shut for 5 years. I still don't say much.
With my small involvement and two good friends that died there in 65. Is where some of my opinion comes from.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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We killed over 1.2 million Enemy Soldiers in Nam. it was not enough--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You should read some of General Giap's books and see how close is was to being enough--
He goes into detail about his depression after Tet of 68--
a quick read and you'll see exactly what UBL referred to when he commented on General Giap's stratagie in VN--
http://www.vwam.com/vets/tet/tet.html

note the dramatic decline of troops deaths after that--which you seen numerous times now.

(deaths in 1960/61--
1956 to 1960---9 deaths
1961 --16 deaths

Prior to 1966 - 3,078 (Total up through 31 Dec 65)
1966 - 5,008
1967 - 9,378
1968 - 14, 589 (the turning point)
1969 - 9,414
1970 - 4,221
1971 - 1,381
1972 - 300

a quick read and you'll see exactly what UBL referred to when he commented on General Giap's stratagie in VN--
http://www.vwam.com/vets/tet/tet.html


Would you say tremedous progress had been made?--then victory was snatched away--and the slaughter that followed was unparrelled in history as not only did we pull troops but pulled funding and airial support for the South.

From Wikipedia


The last U.S. combat troops left in March, 1973. It was an uneasy peace. Due to the forthcoming unification elections, both sides began to grab territory that would have either benefitted themselves or deny areas to the enemy. By 1974, serious fighting had broken out between PAVN occupation forces in South Vietnam and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN). The ARVN held its own successfully during this stage of the fighting.

South Vietnamese President Nguyễn Văn Thiệu appealed to Nixon for continued financial aid. Nixon was sympathetic but the U.S. Congress was not, and the move was blocked. At its peak, U.S. aid to South Vietnam had reached $30 billion a year. By 1974 it had fallen to $1 billion. Starved of funds, Thiệu's government had difficulty even paying the wages of its army and desertions became a problem. On the other side, PAVN received billions of dollars in new equipment from the Soviet Union.

The spring of 1975 saw the launching of a series of limited PAVN offensives under the command of General Van Tien Dung. The success of these drives (launched on a limited scale to test whether the U.S. would once again come to the aid of the Thieu regime) prompted Hanoi to attempt to seize all of South Vietnam before the onset of the monsoon season. The Ho Chi Minh Campaign was a massive conventional operation which utilized armour and heavy artillery. After important areas such as Da Nang and Hue were lost in March, panic swept through the ARVN and its high command. President Thieu attempted to abandon the northern half of the nation while pulling his troops back to defensive positions in the south. It did not work.

PAVN forces captured the capital of Saigon on 30 April 1975. Soon afterwards the Socialist Republic of Vietnam was established. In the new government Gi?p maintained his position as Defense Minister and was made Deputy Prime Minister in July 1976. He was removed from this post at the Defense Ministry in 1980 and was also removed from his position in the Politburo in 1982.

some added notes---

82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe the war was lost because of a lack of political will.

91% of veterans of actual combat and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country. 66% of Viet vets say they would serve again, if called upon.

of the 58,156 nearly 1/5 --10,797 were non hostile

25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees

88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian, 10.6% (275,000) were black, 1.0% belonged to other races


86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (including Hispanics) 12.5% (7,241) were black. 1.2% belonged to other races

http://vietnamresearch.com/history/stats.html

my opinion on parrallels between the Iraq/vietNam
on troops big diff is this is all volunteer war and VN you had about 25% draftee's which would give you more legit grumbling--can't decide if I was drafted or volunteered--as I volunteered for draft at request of a judge.

My beef about VN is we fought war with hands tied which resulted in unnecessary deaths--we could not attack the north while they had carte blanc on south. However as it was fought- was within 2 years-- at less than 3,000 more casualties max of being controlled 90% by the South. Victory was not only a possibilty but inevitable--You NEVER saw NVA in division numbers after 1969--they had given up on receiving mass casualties and had gone to more of a guerrilla type fighting of which the south could handle with no prob. Following our pull out the south still put up valant effort --but had no parts for planes/tanks ect--as we pulled our finacial support along with military--the north regrouped and came south with over 700 russian tanks and ammo and decimated the 300+ tanks of the south which many were not operatable for lack of parts.

I am sure exact similiarites exist from troops in iraq and can see many on interviews. A major diff of last 3 major conflicts NK-VN-Iraq and WW1&2 is we were fighting along side part of the population.
Unlike my father who still does not like Japanese -when I think of vietamese I have positive and sympathic feedback not animousity--My thoughts on withdrawel there were not as an end to war but rather like throwing a friend to the wolves.

So I can see similarities on how this war is going--however think this will be much tougher than VN as suicide bombers and ethic unrest are impossible to eradicate by force. Would be for pulling our troops back into safe zones and let em at it till they see the light are exterminate each other.
--but just my opinion and we know what their worth :)

Would be curious to know which unit your father was with Smurph but if you don't want to discuss it--I understand.
 
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