Right to work/income?

[Duff Miver]

How does a so-called "right to work" law affect income?

Here - "right to work" states in red. Maybe it should be called "right to get fucked over.":facepalm:

1 Maryland $69,272 $70,545 $68,080 $62,372
2 New Jersey $68,342 $70,378 $67,035 $64,169
3 Connecticut $67,034 $68,595 $65,967 $59,972
4 Alaska $66,953 $68,460 $64,333 $57,639
5 Hawaii $64,098 $67,214 $63,746 $60,681
6 Massachusetts $64,081 $65,401 $62,365 $56,236
7 New Hampshire $60,567 $63,731 $62,369 $60,489
8 Virginia $59,330 $61,233 $59,562 $55,108
District of Columbia $59,290 $57,936 $54,317 $47,221 (2005)[3]PDF
9 California $58,931 $61,021 $59,948 $53,770
10 Delaware $56,860 $57,989 $54,610 $52,214
11 Washington $56,548 $58,078 $55,591 $53,439
12 Minnesota $55,616 $57,288 $55,082 $57,363
13 Colorado $55,430 $56,993 $55,212 $54,039
14 Utah $55,117 $56,633 $55,109 $55,179
15 New York $54,659 $56,033 $53,514 $48,201
16 Rhode Island $54,119 $55,701 $53,568 $52,003
17 Illinois $53,966 $56,235 $54,124 $49,280
18 Nevada $53,341 $56,361 $55,062 $50,819
19 Wyoming $52,664 $53,207 $51,731 $47,227
20 Vermont $51,618 $52,104 $49,907 $51,622
United States $50,221 $52,029 $50,740 $46,242 (2005) [4]PDF
21 Wisconsin $49,993 $52,094 $50,578 $48,874
22 Pennsylvania $49,520 $50,713 $48,576 $47,791
23 Arizona $48,745 $50,958 $49,889 $46,729
24 Oregon $48,457 $50,169 $48,730 $45,485
25 Texas $48,259 $50,043 $47,548 $43,425
26 Iowa $48,044 $48,980 $47,292 $47,489
27 North Dakota $47,827 $45,685 $43,753 $43,753
28 Kansas $47,817 $50,177 $47,451 $44,264
29 Georgia $47,590 $50,861 $49,136 $46,841
30 Nebraska $47,357 $49,693 $47,085 $48,126
31 Maine $45,734 $46,581 $45,888 $45,040
32 Indiana $45,424 $47,966 $47,448 $44,806
33 Ohio $45,395 $47,988 $46,597 $45,837
34 Michigan $45,255 $48,591 $47,950 $47,064
35 Missouri $45,229 $46,867 $45,114 $44,651
36 South Dakota $45,043 $46,032 $43,424 $44,624
37 Idaho $44,926 $47,576 $46,253 $46,395
38 Florida $44,736 $47,778 $47,804 $44,448
39 North Carolina $43,674 $46,549 $44,670 $42,061
40 New Mexico $43,028 $43,508 $41,452 $40,827
41 Louisiana $42,492 $43,733 $40,926 $37,943
42 South Carolina $42,442 $44,625 $43,329 $40,822
43 Montana $42,322 $43,654 $43,531 $38,629
44 Tennessee $41,725 $43,614 $42,367 $40,676
45 Oklahoma $41,664 $42,822 $41,567 $40,001
46 Alabama $40,489 $42,666 $40,554 $38,473
47 Kentucky $40,072 $41,538 $40,267 $38,466
48 Arkansas $37,823 $38,815 $38,134 $37,420
49 West Virginia $37,435 $37,989 $37,060 $37,227
50 Mississippi $36,646 $37,790 $36,338 $35,261

 

[Old School]

this neither a comment nor an opinion on my part..simply a couple of references to the subject title.



for those who don't know about right to work states


http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm
Employees in Right to Work States

[En espa?ol] If you are employed in one of the 23 states that has a Right to Work law, you are probably protected by the state's Right to Work law and cannot be required to join or pay dues or fees to a union. (There are a small number of exceptions to the basic rule that individuals who work in Right to Work states cannot be required to pay to join or pay dues or fees to a union. Employees of airlines and railroads, and employees working on property subject to exclusive federal jurisdiction, cannot be required to join a union, but may be required to pay union fees. If you are an airline or railroad employee, click here for an explanation of your rights. If you work on property subject to exclusive federal jurisdiction, call the Foundation for further information.)
The following states have a Right to Work law:
Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.
Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.
If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.)

The Foundation neither encourages nor discourages you from resigning. The decision is yours alone.
If you choose to resign and stop paying dues, and are on automatic "dues check off," you should notify both the union and your employer in writing that you are resigning and revoking your authorization for automatic dues check off. While you may resign from union membership at anytime, you may be limited to a specific "window period" before you are able to end the automatic dues deductions. If that is what you are told, ask the union for a copy of the actual dues deduction card that you signed, and contact the Foundation for further information.
Your choice is protected by federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law. If you have any questions, or feel that your legal rights need to be protected, please call the Foundation's toll-free number, 1-800-336-3600.

 

[Old School]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

 

[Skulnik]

Duff, SCREW the Unions.

The Big Dig -- America's Greatest Highway Robbery

The Big Dig -- America's Greatest Highway Robbery began as a straight report of the shenanigans, deals, hustles, boondoggles and cons of the $22 billion dollar highway tunnel construction project through Boston.

But the author, Robert Skole, found that the Big Dig is so convoluted and confounded that nobody would believe it. The story could best be treated as a novel. Only imagination could do it justice.

The story started out as a comedy, but it turned tragic on July 10, 2006, when a woman was killed by a three-ton concrete ceiling panel that fell on her car. Nobody knows what further tragedies are waiting. The tunnels are so poorly designed, and with such hopeless signage and with speed limits extremely high, there are accidents almost daily. Luckily, none have resulted in deaths.


The Big Dig fiasco has been running for over 20 years -- and at the rate it's going will take another 20 years to unravel. Big Dig boosters claim it's America's largest-ever highway project, the Taj Mahal of tunnel systems. If so, it was designed by the Marx Brothers, built by the Three Stooges and managed by Willy Sutton.

The Big Dig cost almost three times that of building the Panama Canal, in current dollars! And Massachusetts taxpayers will be paying for it for decades to come. Some of the funding was from Federal sources, so thank you, Mr. and Mrs. America, for chipping in to build a problem-plagued tunnel system.

Oh, sure, the Big Dig honchos, and the media, always give the cost at $15 billion. But if you believe that figure, well, I got the Ted Williams Tunnel to sell you. You see, they conveniently forget to add in the interest costs of the huge loans Massachusetts took to pay for the thing. That interest is estimated at costing at least $7 billion, bringing the total to $22 billion.

The Big Dig involved building vehicular tunnels beneath the John Fitzgerald Expressway that slashed through the heart of Boston; the new Ted Williams tunnel under Boston Harbor out to Logan International Airport; and the ugliest, clumsiest stayed cable bridge ever built, a bridge that easily-conned Bostonians actually believe is a work of art.


The Massachusetts Turnpike Authority, owners of the project, relied completely on two giant construction and engineering firms, Bechtel and Parsons-Brinckerhoff, which formed a consortium to design, engineer and manage the entire project. Oh, yeah, it was on a cost-plus basis. The more the job cost, the more the consortium earned. Nice work if you can get it -- a guaranteed profit contract, worth a couple billion bucks, at least.




The main tunnel through the city has been named after the late Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill, Massachusetts Congressman and Speaker of the House from 1977-87, who was instrumental in getting federal funding for the Big Dig. An honest, highly-respected politician, he'd undoubtedly be turning over in his grave if he knew how the project became a rip-off of historic proportions.



Because the tunnels are so poorly designed, with hopeless signage, and with speed limits never enforced, there are accidents almost daily. Luckily, none have been fatal -- except the one at the Ted Williams Tunnel. That one was caused by negligent design, poor workmanship and faulty components. After the deadly accident, state politicians woke up, figured someone should be blamed, and the two design/management firms, plus some component suppliers, paid a few hundred million bucks for doing lousy work.

The final piece of the project was tearing down the John Fitzgerald Expressway (named for a mayor of Boston, the maternal granddad of the Kennedy politicians). The elevated highway, known as the Central Artery, never should have been built in the first place, but genius city planners, mastermind transportation experts, thick-headed politicians and delighted contractors built it in worship of the automobile in the 1950s. In actuality, it was a monument to mass stupidity. As Europe was rebuilding cities destroyed in the war, highway fanatics -- backed by jubilant federal, state and city politicians and business leaders -- were joyfully demolishing historic buildings and neighborhoods in Boston, to create a ghastly "thruway" that was obsolete before it opened.



The Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Greenway (named for the Kennedy mom, surprise, surprise) was built on the surface above the tunnels, where the Central Artery blotted the cityscape for half a century. The Greenway, originally intended as a public park, is run by a so-called Conservancy, which is a non-profit (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) corporation financed by the state and public donations. The Conservancy's initial main efforts seem be to turn the Greenway into a money-making venue for private and corporate events, entertainment, promotions, shows, honky-tonk, and anything else to make money. After all, the handful of top executives of the Greenway have to get their huge salaries.



Playing cheerleaders to the Big Dig were tame Boston journalists, who naively, uncritically and respectfully echoed the publicity fed them by the Big Dig honchos and flacks. For years, the media, in "objective" news stories, referred to the Big Dig as "an engineering marvel." Never was heard a discouraging word. Never did the media ask embarrassing questions. Heck, they never seemed to ask anything. Never were designs or engineering or construction critically questioned. It took leaking tunnels and falling ceilings to wake up the sleeping reporters -- right, sleeping soundly in bed with the Big Dig.. They remain hoodwinked by the "experts".



One outstanding example was the use of old fashioned mammoth centrifugal fans for the ventilation system instead of far more economical axial fans that are used in tunnels worldwide. To tunnel ventilation experts, the Big Dig's choice of ancient technology can only be explained by the fact that it's extremely expensive.



One vent building, at Haymarket Square, was designed as part of a huge structure housing a parking garage, five floors of offices and a large ground floor space. No journalist dug into why the Big Dig spent many millions to build the block-square structure, and then leave its office and retail space empty for ten years. Especially when the ground floor could have been be used for a supermarket that the adjacent North End and West End neighborhoods have long been clamoring for. In 2009, the Turnpike Authority finally asked for proposals for leasing the building.



Of course, it's a bit embarrassing for the media to ask questions now, after a decade of calling the Big Dig "an engineering marvel" and not noticing this massive vent building white elephant almost directly across the street from City Hall. Nor did the media ever follow up to see what happened as a result of a scathing report in 2001 by the state Inspector General detailing Big Dig cost overruns, design and constructions faults, shoddy workmanship and cover-ups.

The cast of characters -- fictional and real -- in this new novel include magnificent local and national politicians, construction managers, contractors, consultants, engineers, designers, architects, flacks, hacks, quacks, so-called journalists, phonies, finaglers, happy bankrupts and billionaire builders laughing all the way to their Cayman Islands bank accounts.

Watch for the novel: The Big Dig -- America's Greatest Highway Robbery

 

[Duff Miver]

Too bad you can't belong to a union, skulnutz.

Maybe someday there'll be a Union of Dumb-asses. In the meantime, you'll just have to be a minimum wage drudge.

 

[Skulnik]

Too bad you can't belong to a union, skulnutz.

Maybe someday there'll be a Union of Dumb-asses. In the meantime, you'll just have to be a minimum wage drudge.

I guess you're in the Crotch Eater Union.



:00x13 :0029 :0037

 

[Duff Miver]

this neither a comment nor an opinion on my part..simply a couple of references to the subject title.



for those who don't know about right to work states


http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

The National Right to Work Organization, that's an unbiased source? You do know that it's funded by right wingers like the Koch Brothers, don't you? :mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

 

[marine]

is there any logic to the numbers you slapped up there or are they just random $$ amounts without any intention of showing anything?

 

[Duff Miver]

is there any logic to the numbers you slapped up there or are they just random $$ amounts without any intention of showing anything?

It shows average family income for the past four years by state, highest is #1, Lowest is #50.

I thought that was pretty obvious, but for jarheads, I probably should have used Crayola.:facepalm:

 

[Cie]

Come on, Duff. You and I both know there is more to it. For example, with so many here dependant on the petroleum exploration industry, Louisiana took a big hit the past 2 years as a result of the BP spill, and more importantly the subsequent Obama-imposed deepwater drilling moratorium in the Gulf.

 

[Cie]

I know this is off topic, but I am trying to figure out how families can survive on $40K in most states, or even the $60K in Virginia?? I feel so out of touch looking at those numbers. I know of a groundskeeper position for $52K currently available at a local golf club. How the hell can the average family of 4 earn less than a groundskeeper, especially when most families I know are 2 income familes:shrug:

It is alarming, but it also makes me realize something. My hardcore republican friends talk of over 50% of the nation paying no income tax. Well, if the average family, presumably of 4, earns $44k annually, then the average family shouldn't be shouldering a tax burden. Talk about squeezing blood from a turnip. WTF?

 

[Duff Miver]

Come on, Duff. You and I both know there is more to it. For example, with so many here dependant on the petroleum exploration industry, Louisiana took a big hit the past 2 years as a result of the BP spill, and more importantly the subsequent Obama-imposed deepwater drilling moratorium in the Gulf.

Sure Louisiana took a hit, but look at the four year numbers. Without that hit, they'd have only been a spot or two higher.

Of course it's more complicated. However, it does prove my point - that RTW laws do not improve a state's average income or standard of living.

For right wingnuts to claim that RTW is beneficial is either ignorance or falsehood.

 

[marine]

It shows average family income for the past four years by state, highest is #1, Lowest is #50.

I thought that was pretty obvious, but for jarheads, I probably should have used Crayola.:facepalm:

No, it really isn't that obvious.

Is it family income or is it per capita income?
is 2010 the most left column or the most right column?

Is this number for everyone in the state or the average salary of people in a certain industry? (blue collar only? or blue & white collar?)

But, yes, it is pretty obvious that the highest is #1. Thanks for clearing that up.

Put some context to these numbers so that we can actually read them and know what you are getting at.

 

[Duff Miver]

No, it really isn't that obvious.

Is it family income or is it per capita income?
is 2010 the most left column or the most right column?

Is this number for everyone in the state or the average salary of people in a certain industry? (blue collar only? or blue & white collar?)

But, yes, it is pretty obvious that the highest is #1. Thanks for clearing that up.

Put some context to these numbers so that we can actually read them and know what you are getting at.

Here....I'll type reeaaalll slooooow. Try to keep up. It's family income, as I told you.

It's average family income by state. That means every family in the state.

2010 is the first on left, then 2009, 2008, 2007.

 

[marine]

Here....I'll type reeaaalll slooooow. Try to keep up. It's family income, as I told you.

It's average family income by state. That means every family in the state.

2010 is the first on left, then 2009, 2008, 2007.

You should probably show that in the original post then. I learned in elementary school that you should always label your data. So it provides meaning.
You don't need to go slow or in crayola, you need to provide the basic information rather than just puking out a bunch of numbers.


And, strangely enough, the states with the lowest average income also seem to have the lowest cost of living when you start making comparisons.
So simply looking at avg household incomes and claiming that RTW does/does not work is a grossly inaccurate statement.

Good try though.

 

[Duff Miver]

And, strangely enough, the states with the lowest average income also seem to have the lowest cost of living when you start making comparisons.
.

Where are your data to support that claim?

 

[marine]

Here you go. Yet again, I've taken the time to try to help educated you and provide you more data, so that you can attempt to look at the whole picture rather than taking one small "angle" and using it as the basis of your "facts" to further promote your agenda.

Since all you did was just puke up numbers on the screen, I'm unable to determine where you got them from and thus, question their reliability because when I pulled a similiar data set of average family incomes by state, I found different stated income salaries and different rankings. Not by a lot, but there was typically a $2-5,000 difference across the numbers.

I've bolded the cost of living in the state rankings at the end of the lines. Rather than do all of them I've just done the top tier and lowest tier.

Additional things to consider - These are state rankings, not city rankings. Which means that there may be a city within each of these states with a significantly higher cost of living calculation - which I am sure you will argue invalidates the rankings, but then it also invalidates the average incomes listed as well due to the combination of rural and city incomes in each state.

Suprisingly, you'll see that those states with the higher income averages tend to be the higher cost of living states, and those with lower income averages tend to be in the lower cost of living states.
It's almost as if they are somehow connected together or in some fashion, dependant upon each other.
:facepalm:

1 Maryland $69,272 $70,545 $68,080 $62,372 (5)
2 New Jersey $68,342 $70,378 $67,035 $64,169 (4)
3 Connecticut $67,034 $68,595 $65,967 $59,972 (9)
4 Alaska $66,953 $68,460 $64,333 $57,639 (6)
5 Hawaii $64,098 $67,214 $63,746 $60,681 (1)
6 Massachusetts $64,081 $65,401 $62,365 $56,236
7 New Hampshire $60,567 $63,731 $62,369 $60,489
8 Virginia $59,330 $61,233 $59,562 $55,108
District of Columbia $59,290 $57,936 $54,317 $47,221 (2005)[3]PDF (3)
9 California $58,931 $61,021 $59,948 $53,770 (2)
10 Delaware $56,860 $57,989 $54,610 $52,214
11 Washington $56,548 $58,078 $55,591 $53,439
12 Minnesota $55,616 $57,288 $55,082 $57,363
13 Colorado $55,430 $56,993 $55,212 $54,039
14 Utah $55,117 $56,633 $55,109 $55,179
15 New York $54,659 $56,033 $53,514 $48,201 (7)
16 Rhode Island $54,119 $55,701 $53,568 $52,003 (8)
17 Illinois $53,966 $56,235 $54,124 $49,280
18 Nevada $53,341 $56,361 $55,062 $50,819
19 Wyoming $52,664 $53,207 $51,731 $47,227
20 Vermont $51,618 $52,104 $49,907 $51,622 (10)
United States $50,221 $52,029 $50,740 $46,242 (2005) [4]PDF
21 Wisconsin $49,993 $52,094 $50,578 $48,874
22 Pennsylvania $49,520 $50,713 $48,576 $47,791
23 Arizona $48,745 $50,958 $49,889 $46,729
24 Oregon $48,457 $50,169 $48,730 $45,485
25 Texas $48,259 $50,043 $47,548 $43,425 (49)
26 Iowa $48,044 $48,980 $47,292 $47,489
27 North Dakota $47,827 $45,685 $43,753 $43,753
28 Kansas $47,817 $50,177 $47,451 $44,264 (44)
29 Georgia $47,590 $50,861 $49,136 $46,841 (43)
30 Nebraska $47,357 $49,693 $47,085 $48,126 (47)
31 Maine $45,734 $46,581 $45,888 $45,040
32 Indiana $45,424 $47,966 $47,448 $44,806
33 Ohio $45,395 $47,988 $46,597 $45,837
34 Michigan $45,255 $48,591 $47,950 $47,064
35 Missouri $45,229 $46,867 $45,114 $44,651 (45)
36 South Dakota $45,043 $46,032 $43,424 $44,624 (46)
37 Idaho $44,926 $47,576 $46,253 $46,395
38 Florida $44,736 $47,778 $47,804 $44,448
39 North Carolina $43,674 $46,549 $44,670 $42,061
40 New Mexico $43,028 $43,508 $41,452 $40,827
41 Louisiana $42,492 $43,733 $40,926 $37,943
42 South Carolina $42,442 $44,625 $43,329 $40,822
43 Montana $42,322 $43,654 $43,531 $38,629
44 Tennessee $41,725 $43,614 $42,367 $40,676 (48)
45 Oklahoma $41,664 $42,822 $41,567 $40,001 (50)
46 Alabama $40,489 $42,666 $40,554 $38,473
47 Kentucky $40,072 $41,538 $40,267 $38,466
48 Arkansas $37,823 $38,815 $38,134 $37,420
49 West Virginia $37,435 $37,989 $37,060 $37,227
50 Mississippi $36,646 $37,790 $36,338 $35,261 (42)

 

[ssd]

Do the posted #'s reflect paid union dues?

Just wondering as there are no title headings nor a legend for the statistics.

Thx.

 

[Duff Miver]

Do the posted #'s reflect paid union dues?

Just wondering as there are no title headings nor a legend for the statistics.

Thx.

NO, it is gross income.

Why do you even bother to ask about union dues? First off, even in strong union states, only a relatively small percentage belong to unions. Secondly, union dues represent only a small fraction of earned wages, so in the grand scheme of things, unions dues make no significant difference in average family income.

So why do you ask?

Never mind....you're just another neocon parrot - "unions steal great gobs of your money". Right?

Next you'll be claiming that RTW laws, more accurately known as fuck the working class laws decrease unemployment, and that eliminating minimum wage laws will end unemployment.

Of course you'll make those claims without regard to facts.

You should run for the Republican nomination; you can also whine about environmental regs, and claim that we have enough oil right here to drive gas prices down to two cents if we just drill, baby drill.

And while you're at it, hum a few bars of Bomb, Bomb Iran.

Maybe you can even keep up with Santorum: Pregnancy resulting from rape is a gift from Gawd. Wonder how Santorum* would like it if his wife was impregnated by a rapist...a black one with AIDS? Would he get down on his knees and thank Gawd? If so, I know a dude who can help him out.

The great unwashed and ignorant population would love you.

*Santorum: The frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex.

 

[ssd]

Wow, Duff.

Someone piss in your Cream O' Wheat this morning?

Or did Sponge get a hold of your password?

Union dues would subtract some money from that GROSS income. It is a real fact. It may not help your cause but it would be less take home for the union members in the non RTW states.

The point you are trying to make is that the unionized states employees make MORE right?

Just asking a simple question along those lines.

I do not and have not followed the RTW v non- RTW argument.

Right now, all I want is real job growth in this country.

Marine's points are relevant as well.

The cost of living in CLE is much lower than the CoL in NYC - so GROSS wages reported would be much higher in NYC than in CLE, as an example.

.....Not sure why I got all the other venomous hate out of your pie hole......

I do not think we belong in the ME at all.
I think the US SHOULD utilize its own resources. EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES.
I'm pro-choice. I do not think anyone has the right to tell a woman what to do with her pregnancy, and that includes the father, her own father, a priest, a judge or whomever.
I really do not care what happens in the sanctity of one's own bedroom.

So, go fuck yourself.