scholarship created for whites only

[kosar]

TMS,

Hard to figure why people got upset. Glad you guys had fun, though. Sounds like a cool group that you're in!

 

[SixFive]

bbc and kosar, don't see what you think is fair about an unqualified person getting in school on the basis of race and then getting their education paid for again because of race.

I remember when I graduated from high school I had to have at minimum a 27 on my ACT to get a good scholarship (pays for tuition). I took the ACT 3 times and finally busted a 27 the third time to earn it. However, minorities only had to score 21 to get the same scholarship. Sounds fair to me!

Saint, are you also saying that the minorities in your class do not have to pass once in school by their own merit?? I have a problem with them getting handed scholarships just because they are a minority, but I would have a huge problem if they are being passed even though they are failing their coursework.

Only thing I recommend to saint is working a little more during school to earn money so your loans won't be so high. I know your schoolwork and responsibilities are hard, but there's always time to make a little change doing something so you don't have to borrow so much money. College loans are a trap and should be avoided at all costs. Live on beans and rice and rice and beans, cut your expenses, drive a beater, etc. so you won't have to borrow so much money.

 

[saint]

Yeah, i'm quite sure that all these unfit minorites (as deemed by Saint) don't work hard. I've heard that not only do they get a full ride, they don't even have to attend classes. On top of that, they are given a school subsidized job paying 20 bucks an hour for doing nothing. Since they don't actually go to classes, they have all the time in the world to work(such that it is-lazy bastards), so not only are minorities not saddled with massive debt after they graduate, like all caucasions are, they actually have a nice bank account built up. They call them 'two day Tyrones' because they only have to show up on registration day and then again on graduation day. Once they check the 'african-american' box on the application, it's smooooth sailing. And don't even get me started on *female* minorities. Some people have all the luck.

How does my explanation of the situation at ONE school say I was expressing the situation nationally. I was talking about how things are at UNC, I would know a bit more about it than you. I never said the minorities in my school don't work hard. I simply said they were less qualified than many other applicants who didn't gain admission, simply because they weren't a minority.

And as far as the minorities at UNCs dental school, how's about I describe how some things work here and you tell me if it's fair.

1. Before dental school officially started for all of us in August of the 1st year, all of the black and other minorities are invited to attend a 3 month program from June-Aug and "pre-take" our classes with the instructors we will have. They get to take mock exams, get one on one instruction. Now let me tell you, this is NOT academically based. It's not for any student who they feel may fall behind. The requirements are strictly based on race. I know because an african american friend of mine told me they asked him to join based on his color. It's nice to start school and learn that 10 or so students already know the professors, already were trained in some things, already took the 1st exams (the same ones we took later for the 1st time they "retook".)

2. The black students have their own advisor, while the white students are not assigned an advisor. He is also a black male, and he advises the minorities and ONLY the minorities. The rest of us pretty much have to survive on our own. For example, a very sad thing happened. One of our black classmate's wife died in a car wreck over xmas break. This student is a great guy and friends with everyone, regardless of color. Well, instead of telling the class as a whole of the news, the advisor told all of the other black students about it separately and 1st, because as a classmate of mine overheard, he "wanted them to know first". Tell me how that's kosher.

3. The black students have access to material others don't, from older students etc.

4. There are things called lunch and learns, basically they are like continuing education that we are required to be licensed. Well, the black students have access to L & Ls that are completely separate than the rest of us.

5. It's just a really comforting thing when you go to a classroom 10 mins early before a class starts, open the door, and see all of the blacks from all 4 years of students in a meeting with some black advisors/professors. What the fuuck is that? If whites tried it we would be crucified.

These are the tip of the iceburg, but i think i've made my point. Okay now, I'd like to see all of you liberals tell me how this shit is fair. Please tell me, I would LOVE to hear it. I'm not saying this is how things are everywhere. But this is how they are in my school, and it fuucks me. These are kids I'm competing with in class rank if i want to further specialize. They are getting a completely unfair advantage strictly based on race. A group of us have thought about legal action. I never in my right mind thought at this level of my education I would have to deal with such hypocrisy.

And one final note. I'm sick of people (not only african americans but other minorities) demanding EQUALITY, while at the same time they expect special treatment. When are they ever going to learn that both can't coexist. You cannot expect to be treated differently and then expect people to look at you as an equal. Until they act like an equal, then equality is just a political term that gets thrown around that is meaningless.

So go ahead, pray tell me why I shouldn't feel slighted. I can't wait for the replies.

 

[kosar]

It seems like people making your type of argument like to be judge and jury about who is qualified and who isn't. Also, I don't know where you went to school, but where I went, it wasn't mandated that everybody must announce their exact financial assistance/status. Are those records available for perusal or do people just *know* what another student is getting? Or is there just a lot of 'assuming' going on?

Whatever the case, no, it doesn't bother me, even if everything Freeze(highly doubtful) and Saint(possible) say is true. I don't mean that they're lying. I believe that they believe it.

I just find it odd all the whining that a lot of 'Angry White Professional Males' do. They whine about minorities getting more aid. They whine about poor people geting grants for school (hey, that's their own fault that their parents are poor. No soup for them!). They whine because they heard that some black kid got into the same school with a lower ACT score. *Then*, after they're done with all that whining, they whine that minorities are whining.

The same group that has every advantage in this country has really started a whining movement over the last 5-10 years. If you asked any of this group (and I mean countrywide, not people from this board specifically) if they would randomly trade situations with a random minority, with all the advantages that minorities obviously have, how many do you think would do it? Maybe 0.

That's because we know that we have it best in this country and will for the rest of our lives.

So, do these perceived injustices hurled on the white professional male bother me? Ummm, no. Instead of whining, i'll just continue to do the best that I can in life and go about my business.

bbc and kosar, don't see what you think is fair about an unqualified person getting in school on the basis of race and then getting their education paid for again because of race.

 

[saint]

Also, I don't know where you went to school, but where I went, it wasn't mandated that everybody must announce their exact financial assistance/status. Are those records available for perusal or do people just *know* what another student is getting? Or is there just a lot of 'assuming' going on?

The financials I gripe about is not financial aid, but grants. Scholarship money. Stuff that won't be paid back. Free money. Trust me, I've taken great advantage of our country's fine system of federal aid. I get as much aid as I need, they know it will be paid back. I'm talking about the free rides and other partial grants that are given out. They are published with a listing of who received them, and how much they were. That's how I know over 80% are minorities even though they make up 10% of the class. I'm not talking about financial aid loans.

As far as inferior statistics, I know a a student member of the Admissions Committee who sits in on all 3 meetings where all 80 members are decided.

 

[Hagen]

I think affirmative action for the most part is a good idea but I think the government needs to change it now from a race thing to an economic thing. Basing a person solely on their accomplishments is wrong IMO. If you ever had a friend who was a poor and a friend who was rich, you cannot honestly say the poor friend had just as much chance of success in school as the rich friend. Sort of the like the person who has fat parents. Sure they can be skinny but will have to work harder than a person with slim parents. Then again I heard that it was more about how much the parents cared about their child vs financial situation that determines the success of the child. But since it's so subjective, I guess we'll have to settle for affirmative action.
Again, basing it solely on academic performance is wrong IMO. Definitely not the right way but IMO is the best way right now. Hey, if you're a white male, then you better be better than other white males. If you're black, then be better than other blacks.

 

[SixFive]

I'll post my reply above the quote just like you, kosar, so you are more at home :tongue First off, I'm not whining about anything. The issue I brought up was fairness as it relates to scholarships. In my situation, I had a black friend in high school who I was very good friends with. His parents had good jobs and made more than mine, I know that for a fact (not really talking about finances here, but just an extra tidbit). I also know he made a 21 on his ACT and recieved the same scholarship that I had to get a 27 on to earn. He got his because he was black and solely because he was black.

Of course, everybody is not mandated to reveal their financial assistance/status with others. I assumed nothing, I have all facts.

It seems like people making your type of argument like to be judge and jury about who is qualified and who isn't. Also, I don't know where you went to school, but where I went, it wasn't mandated that everybody must announce their exact financial assistance/status. Are those records available for perusal or do people just *know* what another student is getting? Or is there just a lot of 'assuming' going on?

 

[SixFive]

saint, sounds like you have some kind of a case somewhere. What a crock of shit you are dealing with at your school. I'm going to show this to my father (he's a Tarheel alum) and get his comments.

 

[yyz]

Hagen, you make some nice points. Personally, I have no problem with a "qualified" person getting a leg up with their schooling. Qualified would mean that they meet the standard educational guidelines to enter the school they are applying for.

Secondly, they can't bounce a more qualified person out of a shot, because of theor color, or financial status.

The idea that "we need to have equality" is bullshit. We don't need 4 backs and 1 hispanic for every 5 whites hired for a job, or accepted for school. You take the most qualified for the job.

It is true, the rich kid will have more avenues than the poor kid. For what it's worth, that's what this country is all about. Does it suck for the poor, yet smart kid, who falls through the cracks? Yes it does. Does it suck when some industrialist's kid gets a pass to an Ivy League school? Indeed, it does.

Nothing should just be "given" to people. We know that with welfare, and other programs aimed at hepling the helpless. If you want something in this world, you can get it.....it's not that hard, really.

My father always told me, "If you work 10% harder than you are required to, you will work harder than most people."

So, instead of people crying that they were discriminated against, they should bust their ass a little more.

 

[kosar]

I'll post my reply above the quote just like you, kosar, so you are more at home :tongue First off, I'm not whining about anything. The issue I brought up was fairness as it relates to scholarships. In my situation, I had a black friend in high school who I was very good friends with. His parents had good jobs and made more than mine, I know that for a fact (not really talking about finances here, but just an extra tidbit). I also know he made a 21 on his ACT and recieved the same scholarship that I had to get a 27 on to earn. He got his because he was black and solely because he was black.

Of course, everybody is not mandated to reveal their financial assistance/status with others. I assumed nothing, I have all facts.

lol- ok, under the quote. If that's all you have to go on, then I don't think it proves anything. Unless he got a letter saying, 'as a result of your good fortune that you're black, your 21 will fly. Whitey has to get a 27', then I don't see your comments as proof at all. Sure, they're 'facts', but based on those facts, it in no way proves that his race was the reason. Maybe the scholarship is the same from 18-30. Or from 21-27. Maybe he had better grades. Maybe he wrote a better essay. Maybe he was in more clubs. I dunno, but I doubt it was based entirely on an act score, nor on a race.

Saint,

I'll try to respond more thoroughly later to your gripes, but I don't have the time right now. Just quickly, i'll say that some of that looks like conjecture and leaping to conclusions. A lot of it looks like it's simply that the white group and the black group aren't comfortable together. Meaning more of a social problem than a systemic one. Some it might be sysytemic. Listen guys, i'm not saying that in certain situations minorities aren't given some extra help. Sure, there are grants out there that are specifically for blacks. And other (perks) along the way. But saint, you seem very consumed with this, even talking about lawsuits. I really don't think that would get very far. And NO, it wouldn't get very far if everything was reversed.

I greatly respect anybody who is doing what you're doing and I wish you the best, but I can kind of sense how much this is eating you up and how much you must think about it.

When it gets to the point where you complain that the blacks were told of another blacks death first, and you consider that a slight, you may want to take a step back and think about what you're worrying about.

 

[just cover]

Kosar-

Its OK to be white...Don't hate yourself...

just cover

 

[kosar]

Kosar-

Its OK to be white...Don't hate yourself...

just cover

lol- Ok man, i'll try to work on that. Having pride in your race and realizing and appreciating all the good that comes with it and all the advantages it brings aren't mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be either/or. Maybe you can work on *that*.

 

[saint]

When it gets to the point where you complain that the blacks were told of another blacks death first, and you consider that a slight, you may want to take a step back and think about what you're worrying about.

How should this not be taken as a slight. It was nothing but a microcosm of the general issue. If someone's loved one died, why does it matter that the black student body should be informed 1st. It's an example of how a lot of african americans don't want to assimilate into the white society. They from their groups and exclude everyone else. This has got nothing to do with comfort. I am comfortable with every one of my minority classmates. It has to do with them enclosing themselves around their heritage, and then bitching about how they are not equal. This isn't just a problem in school systems, this is nationwide in my opinion. Look, I have nothing against maintaining cultural heritages. As an italian from NJ (insert guido stereotype here ) i'm all about my ancestors. It is different on the level it has gotten in my school, it's segregation basically chosen by the minorites themselves. They want it both ways.


As far as it being a huge issue in my life, it's not. It was hard to swallow at first, then like all things in life i and my peers just had to accept it and move on. It's only in discussions that i get fired up again.


Sixfive,

Yes it is complete bullshit. But as a student we have to keep our mouths shut. Dentistry, like many professions, is like a close-knit fraternity, if this stuff got out widespread as far as complaints and traced to me or others, we would be blackballed in the profession for many years so it's a touchy situation.

 

[SixFive]

. Unless he got a letter saying, 'as a result of your good fortune that you're black, your 21 will fly.

he did. Now what?

 

[Chopsticks]

saint

saint

Where is it that the Asian student community cries for "EQUALITY," as you state in one of your posts? We, and I over generalized "we," have never asked for any handouts and usually have achieved whatever has been presented to us by our own merit and not because of some bullshite essay about how are yellow skin will bring us some green paper. And that crap about how we just show up to registration and graduation. Damn, I hope I don't land in one of those guys operating tables. I think that's alittle too exagerated...

 

[kosar]

he did. Now what?

Now 'nothing', sixfive. I figured that you would come back that you had better grades, etc...or even this one(he got that letter..that I *guess* you saw). And you're one of the few people here that I will take at face value. My point in my post to you was to point out that getting the same bennies as a black guy based solely on ACT scores is no reason to assume. So I will take you at your word that you saw some document that spelled out how this other guy made out the same with a 21, opposed to others with a 27. And the reason was race.

Like I said in a previous post, I know it happens and I know it is policy, in some form, everywhere in the country. But i've yet to get any argument, from anybody, that us white males in America, have every advantage. The whining from 'us' rings hollow.

 

[kosar]

How should this not be taken as a slight. It was nothing but a microcosm of the general issue. If someone's loved one died, why does it matter that the black student body should be informed 1st. It's an example of how a lot of african americans don't want to assimilate into the white society. They from their groups and exclude everyone else. This has got nothing to do with comfort. I am comfortable with every one of my minority classmates. It has to do with them enclosing themselves around their heritage, and then bitching about how they are not equal. This isn't just a problem in school systems, this is nationwide in my opinion. Look, I have nothing against maintaining cultural heritages. As an italian from NJ (insert guido stereotype here ) i'm all about my ancestors. It is different on the level it has gotten in my school, it's segregation basically chosen by the minorites themselves. They want it both ways.

You're right in that it is a 'microcosm' of the issue. Maybe even a 'macrocosm'. Before you accuse them of not wanting to 'assimilate' into your world, you should do a review of the private conversations, comments, actions, etc of the white group. When I said it was uncomfortable for both groups, that wasn't towards you personally. I think that the 'segregation' is mutual. I get the impression that your best case scenario would be for everybody to get along and hang together. I HIGHLY doubt that everybody in your 'white group' thinks the same way.

As far as 'who should be informed first about a death', don't be so sensitive. It's natural for anybody to go to the people closest to them first with any really personal stuff like that. And that person informed the people closest to him first. You shouldn't take it personally.

 

[Marco]

In response to TJBELL's posting about the uproar that would be created if there were a NAAWP instead of NAACP or W.E.T. instead of B.E.T.........

I think there is a NAACP, they just shortened the acronym to KKK.......

I'm not prejudiced.....personally I think jobs or scholarships or whatever should be EARNED......Jerry Rice or Michael Jordan in their prime could have played for my team ANYDAY......if I was coach or had a team......

Curious if anyone here watched, I believe it was "American Experience" on PBS lastnight.....not a diehard fan of public tv but sometimes they run some good programs......

Last night they run the story of Emmett Till, the young black teenager who was killed and dumped in a local river in Mississippi back in the mid 50's......two local whites were charged with the killing......white witnesses, well, let's say there were none and the blacks that testified were swiftly put on a train to Chicago just to make sure they weren't found next in the river.....

I wasn't alive back then but they said this case recieved nationwide and world attention.......the coffin was open to allow mourners to see the condition of the body.....looked like a monster inside the coffin from the beating and water damage, not to mention a bullet hole through his head......his mother claimed she could see clear through the hole to the other side of his head.....kid was wearing his deceased dad's ring.....basically the only way to identify the body......

all white jury from the county took 67 minutes to acquit the men of murder, claiming they couldn't prove the body in the casket was actually Till's......they said it would have taken less than 67 minutes except most of them took time out to have a soda......people in the courtroom could here laughing coming from the jury room......

I'm not black but I figure had I been on the jury I may have had to catch a train to Chicago after rendering my own verdict....I wasn't on the jury or at the courthouse but there appeared to be some solid evidence presented that indicated guilt of the suspects.....

The forensic advances science has made today with blood evidence and DNA would have easily made this case a no-brainer for the case against the suspects......would not have even made it to court.......suspects would have confessed after being presented the case against them.....the only thing left would have been to plea bargain for life in prison instead of a very possible death sentence.....in all probability this would have been judged under "hate crimes" statutes.....

 

[Blitz]

In response to TJBELL's posting about the uproar that would be created if there were a NAAWP instead of NAACP or W.E.T. instead of B.E.T.........

I think there is a NAACP, they just shortened the acronym to KKK.......

I nominate this for one of the most ludicrous post's of the year...

 

[KMA]

This is a battle that continues to be fought on the wrong front. I understand "level playing field" argument and the resentment some whites have to affirmative action policies in university admissions and financial support. And I know I'm a voice falling on deaf ears but I'll try again and again because it's important.
The primary function of so-called affirmative action programs (including financial support) is to create a diverse learning environment by including more underrepresented minorities into the classroom. It is not to gerrymander the system in order to disadvantage whites in an effort to socially engineer society by advancing the opportunities for minorities vis a vis the majority. It is painted that way for political purposes, I suppose, but it is simply not the case.

Here is a recent statement by the President of a major university:

"The fundamental purpose of a university is the discover, exchange and application of new ideas. In this context, diversity is essential to the learning environment: a diverse campus population -- students, faculty and staff -- brings with it a diversity of ideas and perspectives, of knowledge sets and new ways of looking at the world... Americans are increasingly diverse; by the middle of this century there will be no majority population in the United States. It is critical that we prepare graduates of the university with the skills to negotiate difference, with an intolerance of prejudice, and the knowledge and perspectives to value difference and to learn from it."

The point is that certain important segements of our society are under-represented in in our universities for a wide variety of reasons. Efforts on many fronts to help increase the representation of those minorities in the classroom improves the educational experience for everyone.

To argue this issue on the basis of "affirmative action disadvantages whites in order to help Blacks" is, in my humble opinion, at best missing the very point and at worst disingenuous.

The university is stronger, better, more valuable, for all, when it is diverse.