Separating Tax Facts From Tax Fiction

DOGS THAT BARK

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The best report I've seen to date--anyone care to debate these "facts"------

Separating Tax Facts From Tax Fiction

Friday, June 04, 2004

By Gail Buckner, CFP



Dear Readers ?
I really try to avoid anything that smacks of politics, but I can't help setting the story straight on a popular American myth ? repeated with increasing frequency in this election year ? that "The Rich" (whoever "they" are) don't pay their fair share of taxes.

A corollary to this is the assertion that The Rich received the biggest benefit of the so-called "Bush" tax cuts," the political catch-phrase for the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003.*

Neither position is supported by hard data taken from income tax returns. In fact, in both cases, the opposite is true.

In other words: The Rich not only pay a disproportionate share of taxes, this share has been increasing since 1990.

According to the most recent figures available (2001) the Treasury Department reports:

1- Since 1990, virtually ALL of the income tax collected by the federal government has come from taxpayers who fall in the top 50 percent in terms of income. In 2000 and 2001, this group paid over 96 percent of total taxes collected.

2-Most of this tax revenue comes from a very select group: The top 5 percent of taxpayers, defined as those who earned about a third (32 percent) of all national income, paid more than half of all individual income taxes (53.3 percent).

Those in the top 1 percent in terms of income, paid more than 30 percent of the total amount of income tax collected.

3-The tax cuts we received in 2001 and 2003 shifted an even larger share of the income tax burden to those with higher incomes.

How can this be, you ask, when the top tax rate was reduced from 39.6 percent to 35 percent? (An 11.6 percent tax cut.)

Simple. Income tax rates at the lowest end of the scale were reduced by a much greater extent. For once thing, we replaced the 15-percent bracket with a 10-percent bracket for the first $14,000 in taxable income for a married couple (that's the 2003 figure, this goes up to $14,300 for 2004).** That's a one-third reduction (33 percent). So, for this tax year, instead of owing $2,145 on their first $14,300 of income, a couple will now pay $1,430.

Because lower-income individuals are paying a smaller piece of the total tax revenue pie, the portion paid by those with higher income must, by definition, go UP.

It will be a couple of years before 2002 and 2003 income tax data are in a form that can be analyzed. Nevertheless, the Treasury Department estimates that this year the portion of tax paid by those with higher incomes will increase again. That's because tax provisions such as marriage penalty relief have a bigger impact on taxpayers with lower

incomes. In addition, some tax breaks phase out once your income hits a certain level. Those with higher incomes see no benefit at all from, for instance, the increased child tax credit.

When they crunch the actual numbers for 2004, the folks at Treasury predict the average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of all taxpayers will fall by 16 percent, compared to a 12 percent decline for those in the top 1 percent of income.

In fact, according to the Treasury Department, nearly 5 million additional Americans will end up paying NO income tax at all in this year, thanks to the tax breaks ushered in by the 2001 and 2003 Acts.

The data are also broken down by state. For instance, thanks to changes in the tax code, 12.4 million Californians will pay less (federal) income tax. More than a million Pennsylvania taxpayers will benefit from the reduced tax rates (15 percent) on dividends and capital gains. Nearly 4.2 million Illinois residents will pay less because of the new 10 percent income tax bracket. 1.6 million New Yorkers will see their taxes reduced thanks to the increase in the child tax credit from $600 to $1,000.

In this country we have what's called a "progressive" tax system. It means that those who can theoretically afford to pay more in taxes, do. But it's important to understand that this doesn't merely refer to the number of dollars that are collected from those with higher incomes. It means that, as your income goes up, so does the tax rate on that income.

For 2004, a married couple filing jointly pays only 10 percent income tax on the first $14,300 of taxable income. But on income from $14,300 to $58,100, the tax rate is 15 percent. When their income exceeds $58,100, the amount over this is taxed at 25 percent, meaning they give up 25 cents of every dollar of income over $56,800. Once a couple's income reaches $117,250, they lose 28 cents per dollar, and so forth until you hit the top tax rate where 35 cents per dollar goes to taxes.

In other words, as your income climbs, taxes eat up a progressively larger chunk of each additional dollar you earn.

That's how the system works. My point is, it IS working, contrary to the political rhetoric you hear.

Hey, I understand why politicians make a scapegoat out of The Rich ? this group can't be defined by race, gender, lifestyle, or any other convenient demographic characteristic. Besides, are The Rich actually going to unite and take a stand? Can you just see a thousand well-dressed individuals holding a press conference on the steps of the U.S. Capitol to proclaim, "We're rich and we think it's unfair that we pay a larger portion of income taxes?"

In other words, it's safe to pick on The Rich because: 1) they're easy to resent; and 2) they're not going to defend themselves.

Just remember that politicians don't have to adhere to any rules about being "fair and balanced."

Gail

*Interesting, don't you think, that one side of the current political debate conveniently forgets that it took votes by Republicans and Democrats in Congress to approve the 2001 and 2003 tax cut legislation?

**$7,150 for someone who files as a single taxpayer.
 

BobbyBlueChip

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The problem debating taxes is that usually when you see this viewpoint, they only include income tax and sometimes include estate tax, but they always ignore payroll taxes which is the highest proportion of the tax that the working poor and the middle class pay.

When Reagan cut taxes for the rich, he called it what it was - The trickle down supply-side theory. When Bush did the same, he called it a middle-class tax cut.

It would be easy to cut the burden on the poor and middle class by reducing payroll taxes, not raising thresholds on estate taxes, which is exactly what he did.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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What would you say payroll tax is on someone earning $15,000 a year?

Taxes would be negligable if not for the big spenders ie Medicare bill this administration passed.

It amazes me that that the members of congress voting against tax cuts are the same that are the most liberal spenders on voting for entitlement programs.

Here is one of their views on subject--also quiz for today ---what do every one of these top spenders have in common ?


"Are we going to continue to give tax cuts or start investing in our future? We need to look at where we are going and begin to act responsibly," said Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif., who is cited as the sixth highest spender in the House, having sponsored or co-sponsored bills with an estimated $1.7 trillion in new programs and increases over the 2003 fiscal year budget.

The other top spenders from highest to lowest are: Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., with $1.75 trillion; Rep. Major Owens, D-N.Y., with $1.73 trillion; Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-Ariz., with $1.73 trillion; Rep. Danny Davis, D-Ill., with $1.71 trillion; Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif., with $1.71 trillion; Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., with $1.69 trillion; Rep. Julia Carson, D-Ind., with $1.68 trillion; Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., with $1.68 trillion; and Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., with $1.68 trillion.
 

djv

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I would say the rich did ok. In 84 they had there taxes cut 30%.
And they still bitch. I would say the other 98% of us never saw that big a cut. There lucky we dont make them pay for more. Looks like the odds would be in favor of the majority. Im not sure if they really need to pay more. If we could just get them and corporate America to throw there CPA's away. Then maybe they would pay what there supposed to in the first place.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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It hard to get tax cut when ----

"70 million voters have no income tax liability whatsoever"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
repost

We are approaching the point where voters adversely affected by the income tax are a minority that can be exploited to the hilt. There are 129 million taxpayers. The top 5 percent of income earners (6.5 million people) already bear 54 percent of the income tax burden. The top 25 percent (32 million people) pay 83 percent of the total personal income tax collection.
The remaining 75 percent of taxpayers (97 million people) bear only 17 percent of the income tax burden, and 70 million voters have no income tax liability whatsoever.
With 167 million voters with little or no income tax liability and 32 million burdened with 83 percent of the liability, have we achieved the tyranny of the majority? Will the political temptation to plunder the minority and to turn them into tax slaves destroy the creativity and productivity of the American economy?
Paul Craig Roberts
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Got another quiz you'll like but no time right now--back this evening. :)
 
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djv

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Lets not be to hard on over 40 million seniors over age 65. Many who lost it all in the 30's and only have there S/S to live on. And that for most it's below poverty in this country. You have many with checks of under 1000 bucks a month. I know because I help at a senior houseing complex. There rent is based on earnings. Dam shame what some get. And right away folks say but they get there pensions. Got news for you. Half that 44 million didn't get chit from there companies other then a gold watch. You were ok if you worked for the railroad the government or in a good union. After that you had to just be lucky. You got tons of companies today that still won't help sponser a retierment plan.
And lets always remember a 30% tax cut on a million means big bucks. A 30% tax cut on 20 grand. Well the math is easy.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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did have another quiz but will change since you brought up Social Security issue.

It was introduced by FDR with his intentions on the following.

It would be completely voluntary
Participants would pay only 1% of 1st $1,400 in earnings
Money contributed would be tax deductible
Money was to be put in trust fund vs general fund to avoid theft of politicians for "other" purposes.
Benefits at retirement would be tax free.

Initially a great plan--until it was revamped by greedy and incompetent politicians in future years. Here is time table on destruction and quiz for today is what do all of these politicians have in common.

Lyndon Johnson
Moved SS from trust fund to general fund

Al Gore
Cast deciding vote as pres of senate in tie breaker to tax ss benefits---

--it gets worse
Jimmy Carter wants to make sure fund becomes insolvent and decides to let immigrants draw benefits under SSI payments regardless if they paid a dime into it.

Maybe you could copy this and hand it out to the people in the senior housing complex so they can make an "informed decision" in coming election. Rather than liberal spin "the republicans want to take your ss away;)

---and while on liberal spin--your statement about "our 40 million seniors" follows in the truest liberal spin.

Fact They are the wealthiest age group in the U.S. with ave net worth of $92,000+

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/000405.html
 
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BobbyBlueChip

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Dogs,

Regarding your last post, you might find this interesting

http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/news/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000003

and regarding your post regarding all of those who have no income tax burden, those same people all have a payroll tax burden (if they're working).

If you think that those "and 70 million voters have no income tax liability whatsoever" (if that is the number) have it so great, then it is very easy to join these "lucky ducks" (as the WSJ editorial page has referred to them) and just not work or underemploy yourself.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I have seen the snoops thing before Bobbie.

Now tell me which of the 3 statements do you feel is incorrect?

---and didn't say the 70 million had it great--I am saying there are a few with disabilties and such that need help but for most part you get out of life what you put in.--and if you quit school--sell drugs-have numerous kids and never marry--its their fault why should those that bust their ass pay for their ineptness??
 
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djv

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Dogs im not sure who you think gets taxed on S/S. They have there medicare taken out each mouth and thats it. There is no other tax. Now for those I assume your talking about that are loaded and still have to do tax on other income. That might happen. And I dont know who ever came up with the amont that senior average 92000 grand +. None of the 40 I work with. You must be talking some old busness owners that kept it all to themselfs and never share with there employes.
And this is about all americans I guess I missed the point where I was spinning for the liberials.
 

BobbyBlueChip

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Lyndon Johnson
Moved SS from trust fund to general fund

Think that this is true, but I don't have a problem with it

Al Gore
Cast deciding vote as pres of senate in tie breaker to tax ss benefits---

Think this is true, but I don't have a problem with it because it taxes higher income people who don't need the subsidy

--it gets worse
Jimmy Carter wants to make sure fund becomes insolvent and decides to let immigrants draw benefits under SSI payments regardless if they paid a dime into it.

Think that this is false, but ss has paid a number of people more than they put into it and the initial elderly never paid anything for it.

.--and if you quit school--sell drugs-have numerous kids and never marry--its their fault why should those that bust their ass pay for their ineptness??

I'm not sure what fair has to do with it. I favor making sure people have food and housing. You'd be surprised with the statistics of how many "red states" rank on the high end of "moral deficiency ratings" such as kids out of wedlock, divorce rates and high school education or less, but I can tell by your tone that you think that it's an urban problem.

I'm certainly not going to defend the social security system, but I don't think that it's a democratic problem, it was meant to combat an impoverished elderly population in the 1930's and based on your statistics, it seems to have done a good job.

Tax cuts are, to me, the number one reason that inherited wealth has made such a comeback in the last 20 years and the cronyism that this administration has shown (as well as the last one - they just seemed more concerned with hiding it and didn't show it off as arrogance) isn't unique to the highest offices of the country, it's in main street and wall street as well and social mobility in this country is a myth. It just goes against everything that this the US used to stand for. And that's my problem with it.

. . . And lastly, I disagree with everything that djv said.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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An impressive analogy Bobby,thank you. Found your views quite interesting.

DJV The $92,000 was accumulated wealth not income. I think our seniors deserve to live in comfort also and am greatful if my tax dollar makes it to them. Its entitlements that give the working class an incentive not to work that I have prob with.
I do not care for general funds either. There is just too little accountability of where the funds go. Case in point----in Ky, lottery proceeds go into general fund and it is impossible to see where money goes. They hyped the lottery at start on all the good causes the proceeds would fund--but after the fact they refuse to be accountable for where they end up.

My biggest bitch with this administration is no fiscal responsible and adamantly agree wth these "renegades".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122182,00.html
 
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djv

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BBC you may disagree but more then hafe the seniors I work with get checks from S/S under 1000 a month. Try lieving on that.
 

Turfgrass

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DJV, I always see you type about personal responsibility, but from this thread it seems to me that you feel the government or any company you have worked for is responsible for your retirement.

Retirement is something that should be planned and saved for until you reach a retirement age so you can live in the comfort that you have provided for yourself. After all, who owns you?

Let me tell you something, the only person that is responsible or accountable for you, is you. If you are dependant on the government for your retirement you are a fool.
 

djv

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Turf if you believe that you are a fool too. In our wonderful country only 80% reach goals. The others for what ever reason have failures. Some there own fault some not. However Im talking about folks that are in there 70's and up. They lost there ass in the 30's. Many went and faught in WW II. There only chance was S/S to recover. Do you think everyone can just go be a lawyer or doctor or carpenter. You know it dont work that way. These folks were glad there was any job at all to return to. Most those companies gave little or no pensions. I have a couple guys I work with at the senior center. Both 80 years old. Worked for same out fit for 41 years. They get 860 bucks from S/S and from that company 41 dollars a month. 1 buck for each year work. They didn't have money to save. They had money to recover from being dead broke and liveing. You talk like everyone just has a extra 100/200 bucks a month to put in a IRA. Your not liveing in the real world if thats what you think. And please dont come with the white trash and black trash stories about folks who dont want to work. These folks all worked there ass off. Even to day we only have 4% of the popoulation that does not want to work. So were talking about the other 96%.
As for me I was lucky GI bill helped pay for schooling. Company I worked for was genrous. Not everyone gets the deal I got.
 

Turfgrass

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Do I want to be free to plan for my own retirement? Well, does that mean that I am going to suffer if I don't plan responsibly and well? OK, then, ?I don't want to be free to plan for my own retirement. I want the government to do it for me.?

Face it .. The federal government was established to help families with their economic and health care problems, right? And don't forget their child care problems, their retirement problems, their problems with their bosses, their lawn care problems, their golf swing problems, their fertility problems, their what-to-watch-on-TV problems, and virtually every little bump in the road of life that causes them any concerns. Right?

I guess you would rather teach young people that government-provided security is so much more important to their well-being than economic liberty.

You cannot love freedom and seek government-provided economic security from your government. You chose either one or the other.

I want the government to cut me loose.

I want to be free to establish my own relationship with my employer. No minimum wages. No mandated benefits. I want to negotiate my own employment contract with my employer, and the only thing I want the government to do is to help me enforce it through the courts if my boss starts screwing around.

I do not believe that I have a right to health care. I do not wish to use the police power of government to force someone else to provide me with medications or medical services. I am perfectly willing to assume the total and complete responsibility for acquiring my own health insurance, all I want them to do is eliminate the mandates and allow me to shop for just the coverage that I desire. Now in the event I get sick without insurance, or I can't cover the costs, I absolutely do not want the government to step in and spend one dime of someone else's money on my care.

I want an end to Social Security. I want out. I will be responsible for setting up my retirement plan and I will be willing to suffer the consequences in old age if I fail to do so.

In a free society the government shouldn't take money from people who are now working just to give it to people who are not.

I have no interest in what other people do in the privacy of their own homes. I don't want any laws that regulate their sexual conduct, and I don't want them punished if they sit out in the back yard under the stars at night puffing on some marijuana.

I want to be free to make my own consumer choices, and that includes choices of which professional I want to use for medical and legal services. I am perfectly willing to rely on my own judgment or the judgment of private accrediting agencies when it comes to selecting an attorney or a doctor. I don't like the idea that I have to go to the government to ask who may and who may not clip my fingernails.

Now go out and proclaim your love of freedom.
 

djv

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Turf cant say your wrong about freedom. But if we did turn everyone on there own. Im afraid that in long run would cost you and me even more then S/S does. It's just a fact many of the companies in this country dont pay enough for you to save for the future. And many never would if not force to. Unions showed up just because of these facts. I as you would rather and did work head up with my compnay. The better I did the better they were to me. But that just dont happen evey place. Were talking like there is a perfect world. And im not sure were there yet even in America.
 
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