Songbird has some problems on the way

The Sponge

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Looks like the military is finally waking up.


Source: The Desert Dispatch

Veterans group to launch attacks on John McCain

by Carol Jensen
As the daughter of a retired Marine, who served in both Korea and Vietnam, it is easy for me to understand why some veterans? groups are upset by John McCain?s voting record in regard to veterans? issues in the Senate.

His stance on the new G.I. Bill puts him in opposition to the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the American Legion, as well as the national commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW).

McCain often cites his service in the military as evidence of his dedication to and support of his fellow veterans. But when some of these groups were crediting the two presidential candidates for their support of important issues to veterans, McCain came up short.

The Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of American gave Senator McCain a grade of ?D? for his voting record against veterans, while in contrast Senator Obama received a grade of ?B+.? The Disabled Veterans of America credited McCain with a 20 percent voting record on veteran?s issues, while Obama was credited with 80 percent, according to statistics posted on Think Progress.

All of these criticisms may well be reasons why some veterans groups are speaking out against John McCain in his run for president and many veterans from both sides of the aisle feel that these are valid and important reasons to lobby against him.

But earlier this year, a group was formed called Vietnam Veterans against McCain, the same group of people that famously ?swiftboated? John Kerry in 2004. The goal of this group is to destroy McCain?s candidacy by attacking his military record.


According to their web site ?Vietnam Veterans against John McCain,? the group was formed to dispel the myth of ?Straight talkin?, principled, maverick war hero McCain. Through more than two decades of investigation of his behavior, through open-source documents, public statements of his colleagues, and personal conversations with other Vietnam POWs, we have come to the unavoidable conclusion that he is unfit by virtue of his temperament, character, dishonesty, and emotional instability to serve as president of the United States or in any position of public trust.?

Vietnam Veterans against McCain plan to run a series of television ads that they say will expose John McCain?s support of the communist regime in Vietnam, as well as allege that if elected president he would allow ?illegal immigrants? to have driver?s licenses, according to a Huffington Post article.

According to the same article, the types of attacks used against John Kerry will be brought against John McCain: ?That while being held and tortured in North Vietnam, McCain collaborated with his captors to avoid being tortured, recorded dozens of propaganda tapes for the North Vietnamese, and provided classified information which jeopardized the lives of other American pilots. And the war-hero persona that he bases his campaign on is merely a fabrication.?

These types of allegations about a man who served his country in a time of war and endured being held prisoner are truly unconscionable, particularly when that person is in the running to become president of the United States.

Much of the criticism that Senator McCain has encountered with Vietnam veterans has to do with actions he has taken as a U.S. senator in regards to unaccounted for prisoners of war (POWs) and those missing in action (MIAs). McCain is accused by these veterans as being complicit, due to his close ties with the Pentagon, in keeping sealed documents pertaining to POW/MIA classified documents. Vietnam veterans demand that these thousands of documents be declassified.

His detractors insinuate that his refusal to push for the release of this information is due to his own behavior when held captive and his fear that it would become public knowledge if the documents were ever released.

The most disturbing action that McCain has taken in the minds of the Vietnam veterans is his role as senator in the normalization of relations between the United States and Vietnam. They are appalled by his willingness to take part in any dealings with a country that once tortured him.

Vietnam Veterans against McCain appears to be gathering in strength and in numbers in their opposition to his presidential candidacy. As their web site professes, ?We have been forced to conclude that only by producing our own newspaper ads, radio and TV commercials can we expose the ?real McCain? to the American people. We believe this media campaign has the potential to avert the very likely devastating consequences of a McCain presidency.?

Read more: http://www.desertdispatch.com/opinion/veterans_3535___a...
 

THE KOD

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The Six Articles of The Code of Conduct

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way
of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never
surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to
resist.

If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will
make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither
parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners.
I will give no information or take part in any action which might be
harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will
obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in
every way.

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give
only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering
further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or
written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to
their cause.

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom,
responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my
country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
...........................................................
 

The Sponge

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The Six Articles of The Code of Conduct

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way
of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never
surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to
resist.

If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will
make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither
parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners.
I will give no information or take part in any action which might be
harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will
obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in
every way.

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give
only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering
further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or
written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to
their cause.

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom,
responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my
country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
...........................................................

When Cheney read that he took another deferment
 

THE KOD

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gw

he is calling McCain a traitor and collaborator.

and worse. I guess you didnt have time to read any articles posted about McCain as a POW.

The cong code named him Songbird because they said he started singing the minute he got into their camp. :SIB

:0corn
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
you know,i caught alot of flack on this board for citing a rationale for taking out saddam....right or wrong,i tried to expalin the decision....

and i caught hell for doing so because i never served in the military....

scott,have either yourself or spongy served in the military?...
 

kosar

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ft myers, fl
you know,i caught alot of flack on this board for citing a rationale for taking out saddam....right or wrong,i tried to expalin the decision....

and i caught hell for doing so because i never served in the military....

scott,have either yourself or spongy served in the military?...

Path of least resistance.

I understand.

Best defense is an offense.
 

THE KOD

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no but I am not running for the highest most powerfuk office in the world.

My integrity is unquestionalbe though.
 

gardenweasel

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isn`t it funny how these two can spam the board ad infinitum but they can`t answer this one simple yes or no question that libs pounded ME with for trying to explain the iraqi invasion that,btw,many prominent dems voted for...

you guys all of a sudden get palsy?...
 

THE KOD

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How the Clintons will undo McCain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 04, 2008
1:00 am Eastern


By Jack Wheeler
? 2008





The number of fellow senators who think John McCain is psychologically unstable is large. Some will admit it publicly, like Thad Cochran who says, "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine."

Others relate times when McCain screamed four-letter obscenities right in their faces in the Senate cloak room, like Dick Shelby, Rick Santorum or Jim Inhofe. "The man is unhinged," one senator told me. "He is frighteningly unfit to be commander-in-chief."

That John McCain is clinically nuts is scary enough. What worries a small group of GOP senators and congressmen even more is a deep and dark skeletal secret in McCain's glorified past to which they are privy, and which the Clintons will use to blackmail him.

They have been having discussions with a Russian whom we'll call "T" for translator. T's father was the Soviet military intelligence officer who ran the "Hanoi Hilton" prison holding captured Americans during the Vietnam War. One of those prisoners was John McCain.

The GRU ? Glavnoje Razvedyvatel'noje Upravlenije or main intelligence directorate of the Soviet (now Russian) Armed Forces ? operated the entire North Vietnamese prison system holding American prisoners of war. GRU officers, all of whom were Russians, oversaw the interrogation of every American POW.

The interrogations themselves were conducted by Vietnamese who spoke some English. After each interrogation session, which could often include torturing the prisoners at the direction of the GRU officers, the Vietnamese interrogator would write a report of the session ? in Vietnamese.

These reports had to be translated into Russian. T, a bright teenager living in the GRU compound in Hanoi, had become fluent in Vietnamese, and ended up translating many of the reports and interrogators' notes.

John McCain, flying his A-4 Skyhawk, was shot down over Hanoi on Oct. 26, 1967. Badly injured from the ejection, he was beaten and abused by his captors. In July, 1968, his father, U.S. Navy Adm. J. S. McCain, was made CINCPAC, commander in chief, Pacific Command, commander of all U.S. military forces in the Vietnam theatre. Upon learning this, the Vietnamese offered ? according to McCain ? to release him.

McCain claims he refused, because he demanded all American POWs captured before him be released as well. He thus remained a prisoner when he could have gone home, and was subjected to constant brutal beatings and torture for years: that is the source of the "war-hero" saga making McCain a greater war-hero than any other American POW.

Yet the offer of release would had to have been approved by the GRU overseers of the North Vietnamese ? and T does not recall any such offer being made. T admits, however, that this took place before McCain was transferred to Hoa Loa prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton" by the POWs. T had only direct knowledge of what happened at Hoa Loa, and not the other prisons, where T's father was in charge.

McCain was kept at the Hanoi Hilton from December 1969 until his release, along with all the remaining POWs, in March 1973. During this time, T translated all the Vietnamese interrogators' notes and reports regarding John McCain.

According to T, they reveal that McCain had made an "accommodation" with his captors, and in exchange, T's father saw that he was provided with an apartment in Hanoi and the services of two prostitutes. Upon returning to his prison cell, he would say he had been held in solitary confinement. That may be why so many of his fellow prisoners said later they saw so little of him at Hoa Loa.

The notes and reports written in Vietnamese were sent to Moscow, where T was a now a college student, for T's translation into Russian, then placed into GRU archives. That's where they stayed until 1991. Late that year, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, the CIA and the GRU made a deal for a document swap.

All of what it involved, T doesn't know. What T's father, by now retired but still with substantial contacts within the GRU, did learn (and thus T learned) was that the swap included all of T's translations.
............................................................

The Clintons were ready to take it to John.

I am starting to feel sorry for the guy.

Tons of this on the internet sites.
 

THE KOD

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isn`t it funny how these two can spam the board ad infinitum but they can`t answer this one simple yes or no question that libs pounded ME with for trying to explain the iraqi invasion that,btw,many prominent dems voted for...

you guys all of a sudden get palsy?...
................................................................

gw

if you think you could intimidate me into silence

your pretty much off your rocker.

Geez Louise.

How do you respond that McCain has not been forthcoming with the POW interviews that have been classified for 40 years ?
 

gardenweasel

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at least scott showed up...


spongy???......you feel fine making allegations of "traitor" against a war hero?......given your illustrious service record?...
 

smurphy

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no but I am not running for the highest most powerfuk office in the world.

:mj07: Is this some kind of Freudian typo? I like it.

REGARDING SONGBIRD - I think playing this "Questionable POW integrity" card is just as bad as the Swifboat thing with Kerry. It's disgraceful and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. McCain served honorably as far as any of us know. Everything else is speculation. There is usually some kind of bad motive behind the people bringing up this ancient history. I don't trust them and I don't trust these rumors. Same with Kerry, same with the overwhelming majority of vets.
 

kosar

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ft myers, fl
the one minute difference,kosar,is i didn`t call a war hero "coward"...

you missed that,i`m sure...

Changing the subject again, but i'll play.

No, McCain is definitely not a coward and i'll go along with the war hero thing I guess(kind of). I must have missed you lauding Kerry for being a war hero 4 years ago, but that's ok. Hell, I don't really think either of them were 'heroes'. Not in the traditional military sense of a hero.

One guy got bruised by shrapnel, got medals and such and came home after 9 months and the other lost yet another plane, got busted up ejecting and rotted in Hanoi.

Of COURSE you have to respect him for that. For serving, not for getting shot down. I mean, in the sense that you respect ANY POW. He did nothing exceptional when compared to other POW's. It's possibly quite the contrary.

But I will say this. Long before he won the nomination(I mean years), there were some questions about how he conducted himself and his motives and now, sadly, all this shit will be pouring out. Just like the Swift Boat stuff.

There is no place for it and all of it is totally irrelevant when we are asked to evaluate a potential Presidential candidate.
 

gardenweasel

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:mj07: Is this some kind of Freudian typo? I like it.

REGARDING SONGBIRD - I think playing this "Questionable POW integrity" card is just as bad as the Swifboat thing with Kerry. It's disgraceful and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. McCain served honorably as far as any of us know. Everything else is speculation. There is usually some kind of bad motive behind the people bringing up this ancient history. I don't trust them and I don't trust these rumors. Same with Kerry, same with the overwhelming majority of vets.

i guess it was o.k. to attack me for making the counter argument about the iraqi invasion because i`d never served?....

i guess i didn`t have "the right" to disagree in a perfect leftwing world?...

that right?...
 

smurphy

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i guess it was o.k. to attack me for making the counter argument about the iraqi invasion because i`d never served?....

i guess i didn`t have "the right" to disagree in a perfect leftwing world?...

that right?...

Are you quoting me and then responding to other peoples' posts? Your last two posts directed at me have made no sense at all.:shrug:
 

THE KOD

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Article V of the Code of Conduct is very specific in declaring that U.S. military personnel are required to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies or harmful to their cause. Any violation of this code is considered collaborating with the enemy.

The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report:

"I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to usa man dying of a broken leg.

Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'

"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as `The Bug.' He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"

McCain claims it was only a coincidence that, about the same time he was begging to be taken to a hospital, the Vietnamese learned his father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., commander of all U.S. forces in Europe and soontobe commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, including Vietnam.

McCain has admitted that he survived only because the Vietnamese learned who his father was and rushed him to a hospital where his wounds were eagerly treated. He has also conceded that the Vietnamese repeatedly threatened to withhold much needed operations unless he would give them information.

The former POW admitted in the U.S. News and World Report article that the Vietnamese usually left other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds to die, not wishing to waste medication on them. McCain pointed out "there were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time."

The communists figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, McCain was of royalty and the governing circle. They bragged that they had captured "the crown prince" and treated him as a "special prisoner."


"Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist residing in Cuba, returned from the Democratic Republic of Vietnam . . . he brought back some journalistic news: an interview with a North American pilot captured in the DRV after bombing Hanoi on 26 October 1967. The meeting between him and the pilot took place in an office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in Hanoi. The pilot interviewed is Lt Cmdr John Sidney McCain
, son and grandson of American Navy Admirals.

"In the course of the interview, on various occasions he showed that knowledge of the language, saying some words, dates, and so forth in Spanish, or [using it] when he thought the interpreter was seeking the corresponding French word.

"Naturally, from the beginning this established a more direct communication between us, and more than one question or my response was made directly in Spanish." Havana Granma January 24, 1970

U.S. Veteran Dispatch Editor's note: In case you missed it, McCain's meeting with the Cuban "took place in an office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in Hanoi" away from the POW camp.

..................................................................​
 

THE KOD

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:mj07: Is this some kind of Freudian typo? I like it.

..........................................................

I did slip on that one smurph and when I saw it I was going to change it, then I said , geez that kinda fits.

President Powerfuk

:142smilie :142smilie
 
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