source in "plame case" was karl rove,says democratic operative lawrence o`donnell..

gardenweasel

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well,the dems will make political hay if they can.....

but,i don`t think rove committed a crime....from what i understand...


from what i`ve read,his wife was a desk jockey...nothing covert about her...and the rules on this issue are very specific...never been a prosecution ....

what i can`t figure out is why the administartion sent a partisan like wilson....a real shrill hard line democrat....that admittedly hates the administration....to niger....to investigate the plutonium issue....

if i were in the administration,i wouldn`t have sent wilson to investigate somebody pissing in a water fountain...

that`s akin to the dems sending newt gingrich on a fact finding mission...

ridiculous...

this is the kind of stuff that makes you shake your head at some stuff that the administration does...

ocelot...now now...remeber the liberal creed...."everyone is innocent until proven guilty"...
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Lot of smoke hasn't cleared on this one yet.

1st how did he get appointed to go Africa by his wife recommendation and why did administration ok it when they knew he was liberal who had backed Kerry with donations.

2nd After he returns with info proved inaccurate writes scathing article and book--how did they expect no one to find out about his wife being operative with any investigating what so ever.

3rd It was reporters that probed Rove for info--he didn't call them to leak any info.

Now for the sake of arguement lets say he did leak info on purpose--if so it will be almost impossible to convict him of crime as burden of proof is VERY tough--not cut and dried like videos of stuffing documents in socks--and forensnic proof of pergury.
 

djv

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The thing I don't get is the reporter sitting in jail. She wrote nothing on this subject. That was reported yesterday. If she sits there for any of these guys. There all ball less for not letting her give up any info she has.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"Frederick Jones, a spokesman for Hadley, now Bush's national security adviser, said he could not comment due to the continuing criminal investigation. Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin, said his client answered all the questions prosecutors asked during three grand jury appearances, never invoking his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or the president's executive privilege guaranteeing confidential advice from aides."

Wow isn't that refreshing for a change--no pleading the fifth- no I don't recall-
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Proof to whom?

I just happen to like the refreshing changes from a few years ago including corporate crooks getting book thrown at em in jail time and fines rather than getting pardoned for cash--ya know what I mean??

Do you really think citizens give a rats ass about Kennedy-Peloski-Reid-Durbin-ect complaining about leak of some dame sitting at desk job above the way they protrayed our military to the world.

Can't say I blame them for anamosity against Rove as he's drilled them past 2 elections--could end being amunition for more intense drilling next time around--if thats possible.
 

gardenweasel

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i have to say...as a somewhat partisan observer :rolleyes: :brows:...that the democrats have really been picking the wrong battles....

railing on gitmo...the rove thing...these aren`t topics that are going to get the public`s attention...

they should be working over the supreme court appointments...it is crucial for the dems to keep a reasonably liberal supreme court..they`ve lost everything else...the courts give them some power...

they should be railing on bush`s social security plan...that`s a disaster with much of the public...

leave the military alone..the public doesn`t like it...and the republicans can easily show that it hurts us abroad...


they say pick your battles...

railing on the military...and the rove thing...even when everybody knows they can`t convict him....does not help...

where is evan bayh?....romney?....mark warner?...even biden....bill richardson....

there are some solid democrats out there...they`ve been pushed aside by the extremists...

instead of tired old losers like kennedy,reid,pelosi,dean,durbin,schumer,kerry..........losers...that will keep on losing...

win something...then go back to being knee-jerk radicals...

but,you have to become more moderate...move to the middle...

look at what hillary`s doing...backing the troops....railing on the border....

keeping her mouth shut on the issues that are losers...

stop supporting the losers that keep picking the wrong issues....

there are some smart young...and even not so young dems that need some support...
 
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shamrock

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garden my friend, its amazing to me there is still a handful of people out there that don't despise the Bush administration. Amazing the duck and slide lies just keep coming and coming.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"garden my friend, its amazing to me there is still a handful of people out there that don't despise the Bush administration. Amazing the duck and slide lies just keep coming and coming."

"Duck and slide lies"--would "I don't recall" some 30+ times--pleading the 5th---and perjury conviction fit in this catagory???

Would you could share with us any time GW has had resort to any of the above??

--or if your asserting reasons about going to war--how about this one--Clinton and William Cohen his secretary of defence claim on face the nation over 100.000 Kosovar Albanians were missing or dead as a reason to invade Kosovo--New York Times on 4-19 of that year reported over 500,000 were missing or dead--however after the fact,the official NATO body count of the events in Kosovo was 2,788 (not all of them were war crimes victims)
Now if he really wanted to stop a real genocide there was Rwandan--however after his humiliation of U.S. cut and run tactics in Somolia he opted to stay clear.
 

kosar

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Wayne,

I think that you're the only person on the planet who could bash what we did in Kosovo. Without a single loss of American life. Think about this objectively. If it was Bush who did what Clinton did in Kosovo, you'd be crowing about it forever. You take a shot about Rwanda, but no mention of Dafur? You're something else, my man.

So there wasn't a 'real' genocide in Kosovo? I have no idea where you got that 'official' body count of 2700, but it's simply ridiculous and you know it.

And still not a peep about this invasion of Iraq?

You're so blinded by hate of Bubba that not only can't you give him credit for Kosovo, but you actually criticize it? Unbelievable.
 

kosar

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I guess this was all the figment of someones imagination. Kinda like some people claim that the holocaust never happened.


Bosnia Genocide - 1992-1995 - 200,000 Deaths

In the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, conflict between the three main ethnic groups, the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, resulted in genocide committed by the Serbs against the Muslims in Bosnia.

Bosnia is one of several small countries that emerged from the break-up of Yugoslavia, a multicultural country created after World War I by the victorious Western Allies. Yugoslavia was composed of ethnic and religious groups that had been historical rivals, even bitter enemies, including the Serbs (Orthodox Christians), Croats (Catholics) and ethnic Albanians (Muslims).

During World War II, Yugoslavia was invaded by Nazi Germany and was partitioned. A fierce resistance movement sprang up led by Josip Tito. Following Germany's defeat, Tito reunified Yugoslavia under the slogan "Brotherhood and Unity," merging together Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, along with two self-governing provinces, Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Tito, a Communist, was a strong leader who maintained ties with the Soviet Union and the United States during the Cold War, playing one superpower against the other while obtaining financial assistance and other aid from both. After his death in 1980 and without his strong leadership, Yugoslavia quickly plunged into political and economic chaos.

A new leader arose by the late 1980s, a Serbian named Slobodan Milosevic, a former Communist who had turned to nationalism and religious hatred to gain power. He began by inflaming long-standing tensions between Serbs and Muslims in the independent provence of Kosovo. Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo were in the minority and claimed they were being mistreated by the Albanian Muslim majority. Serbian-backed political unrest in Kosovo eventually led to its loss of independence and domination by Milosevic.



In June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia both declared their independence from Yugoslavia soon resulting in civil war. The national army of Yugoslavia, now made up of Serbs controlled by Milosevic, stormed into Slovenia but failed to subdue the separatists there and withdrew after only ten days of fighting.

Milosevic quickly lost interest in Slovenia, a country with almost no Serbs. Instead, he turned his attention to Croatia, a Catholic country where Orthodox Serbs made up 12 percent of the population.

During World War II, Croatia had been a pro-Nazi state led by Ante Pavelic and his fascist Ustasha Party. Serbs living in Croatia as well as Jews had been the targets of widespread Ustasha massacres. In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, they had been slaughtered by the tens of thousands.

In 1991, the new Croat government, led by Franjo Tudjman, seemed to be reviving fascism, even using the old Ustasha flag, and also enacted discriminatory laws targeting Orthodox Serbs.

Aided by Serbian guerrillas in Croatia, Milosevic's forces invaded in July 1991 to 'protect' the Serbian minority. In the city of Vukovar, they bombarded the outgunned Croats for 86 consecutive days and reduced it to rubble. After Vukovar fell, the Serbs began the first mass executions of the conflict, killing hundreds of Croat men and burying them in mass graves.



The response of the international community was limited. The U.S. under President George Bush chose not to get involved militarily, but instead recognized the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia. An arms embargo was imposed for all of the former Yugoslavia by the United Nations. However, the Serbs under Milosevic were already the best armed force and thus maintained a big military advantage.

The end of 1991 brokered a U.S.-sponsored cease-fire agreement between the Serbs and Croats fighting in Croatia.

In April 1992, the U.S. and European Community chose to recognize the independence of Bosnia, a mostly Muslim country where the Serb minority made up 32 percent of the population. Milosevic responded to Bosnia's declaration of independence by attacking Sarajevo, its capital city, best known for hosting the 1984 Winter Olympics. Sarajevo soon became known as the city where Serb snipers continually shot down helpless civilians in the streets, including eventually over 3,500 children.

Bosnian Muslims were hopelessly outgunned. As the Serbs gained ground, they began to systematically roundup local Muslims in scenes eerily similar to those that had occurred under the Nazis during World War II, including mass shootings, forced repopulation of entire towns, and confinement in make-shift concentration camps for men and boys. The Serbs also terrorized Muslim families into fleeing their villages by using rape as a weapon against women and girls.

The actions of the Serbs were labeled as 'ethnic cleansing,' a name which quickly took hold among the international media.

Despite media reports of the secret camps, the mass killings, as well as the destruction of Muslim mosques and historic architecture in Bosnia, the world community remained mostly indifferent. The U.N. responded by imposing economic sanctions on Serbia and also deployed its troops to protect the distribution of food and medicine to dispossessed Muslims. But the U.N. strictly prohibited its troops from interfering militarily against the Serbs. Thus they remained steadfastly neutral no matter how bad the situation became.

Throughout 1993, confident that the U.N., United States and the European Community would not take militarily action, Serbs in Bosnia freely committed genocide against Muslims. Bosnian Serbs operated under the local leadership of Radovan Karadzic, president of the illegitimate Bosnian Serb Republic. Karadzic had once told a group of journalists, "Serbs and Muslims are like cats and dogs. They cannot live together in peace. It is impossible."

When Karadzic was confronted by reporters about ongoing atrocities, he bluntly denied involvement of his soldiers or special police units.

On February 6, 1994, the world's attention turned completely to Bosnia as a marketplace in Sarajevo was struck by a Serb mortar shell killing 68 persons and wounding nearly 200. Sights and sounds of the bloody carnage were broadcast globally by the international news media and soon resulted in calls for military intervention against the Serbs.

The U.S. under its new President, Bill Clinton, who had promised during his election campaign in 1992 to stop the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, now issued an ultimatum through the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) demanding that the Serbs withdraw their artillery from Sarajevo. The Serbs quickly complied and a NATO-imposed cease-fire in Sarajevo was declared.

The U.S. then launched diplomatic efforts aimed at unifying Bosnian Muslims and the Croats against the Serbs. However, this new Muslim-Croat alliance failed to stop the Serbs from attacking Muslim towns in Bosnia, which had been declared Safe Havens by the U.N. A total of six Muslim towns had been established as Safe Havens in May 1993 under the supervision of U.N. peacekeepers.

Bosnian Serbs not only attacked the Safe Havens but also attacked the U.N. peacekeepers as well. NATO forces responded by launching limited air strikes against Serb ground positions. The Serbs retaliated by taking hundreds of U.N. peacekeepers as hostages and turning them into human shields, chained to military targets such as ammo supply dumps.

At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. In addition, the Serbs continued to engage in mass rapes of Muslim females.

On August 30, 1995, effective military intervention finally began as the U.S. led a massive NATO bombing campaign in response to the killings at Srebrenica, targeting Serbian artillery positions throughout Bosnia. The bombardment continued into October. Serb forces also lost ground to Bosnian Muslims who had received arms shipments from the Islamic world. As a result, half of Bosnia was eventually retaken by Muslim-Croat troops.

Faced with the heavy NATO bombardment and a string of ground losses to the Muslim-Croat alliance, Serb leader Milosevic was now ready to talk peace. On November 1, 1995, leaders of the warring factions including Milosevic and Tudjman traveled to the U.S. for peace talks at Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Ohio.

After three weeks of negotiations, a peace accord was declared. Terms of the agreement included partitioning Bosnia into two main portions known as the Bosnian Serb Republic and the Muslim-Croat Federation. The agreement also called for democratic elections and stipulated that war criminals would be handed over for prosecution. 60,000 NATO soldiers were deployed to preserve the cease-fire.

By now, over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. It was, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, "the greatest failure of the West since the 1930s."
 

NySportsfan

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hey matt,
how did vegas go, some wacky stories? didnt hear back from you re:ride, but keep in mind I offered :clap: let me know if you wanna catch a drink or dinner later on, look fwd to hearing about the vegas adventures
 

kosar

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Stop hijacking threads. Vegas was great(except for the actual gambling part of it, which was far from great). Had a great time partying non-stop with bergyshouse, his nephews, bjfinste, his buddy and smurphy. Hell, i even got to meet smurphys Braziian stripper friend.

I didn't get your message until after I got home. No big deal and the offer is noted. I don't know what i'm gonna do tonight. Thinking about the beach somewhere. If you respond, send an email. Nobody wants to read about our dinner plans. :rolleyes:
 

NySportsfan

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hey dick, thanks for the friendliness as always :mj07: :mj07: didnt want to hijack the thread, but I've seen others do it before, just wanted to drop a quick line dude.......i'll send you an email and speak to you later on........on this topic, heard that clown imus speaking about rove today, that guys a jacka$$ as everyone knows, why he is on msnb is beyond me??
 

kosar

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NySportsfan said:
on this topic, heard that clown imus speaking about rove today, that guys a jacka$$ as everyone knows, why he is on msnb is beyond me??

Saying that Imus is a jackass isn't exactly staying 'on topic.' :rolleyes:
 

kosar

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bjfinste said:
Wait.... when?? After we left to go back to the Aladdin?

It was late saturday night, I think. I dunno, I was playing craps and they showed up at the table and played for a bit. Not sure where everybody else was at that time.
 
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